The PERFECT WAR Mod

[FatR]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd
1. Nine full CVs at start? My count is Akagi, Atago, new CV, Soryu, Hiryu, Sho, Zui, Shoho, and Zuiho. The Atago would carry 6-9 less planes then Kaga due to the size difference and the new CV would add 21 for a net gain of 13-16 planes. That isn't much at all.

The idea, as I've already explained above, is not building any of the three dedicated shadow fleet ships (one of which will be replaced by CL conversions in its initial role, and other two were laid down post-treaties), and just going for another pair of Hiryus right away. As I mentioned, this will increase cost by no more than 20-25%, compared to just Shoho/Zuiho, and will occupy shipyards for shorter time. I think this concept was even discussed in detail on this board before.

[John 3rd]

I saw that after I Posted the above comments.

[FatR]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd
I love the AA DDs, however, they were highly expensive. What is used to bolster AA defense around and including the CVs then?

Hatsuharu and Shiratsuyu DDs already have full DP armament in this alternative, eveb if their guns are not as good. Plus, as you said, conversions. Super-Kagero class will have full DP armament. Flak potential of Japanese DDs will be way higher than IRL.

ORIGINAL: John 3rd
1. Like the 24 Super-Kagero's built as a stop gap until the better gun comes in.

I think I was unclear here - I referred as super-Kageros to DDs with new DP guns (let's name them Type 99 guns). The stopgap is either 8 regular Kageros or 10 "war emergency" DD with 127/40 armament

ORIGINAL: John 3rd
2. Early Matsu's are the simple answer that we stumbled along into with RA. Think it makes a great deal of sense to build them and earlier. Essentially they are being heavily worked and reworked as the last Class A DDs roll off the ways.

Any comments on whether to stick with the historical design or with a slightly bigger one?

ORIGINAL: John 3rd
3. A later start to the China War? Sounds like an interesting story coming along...

This was discussed upthread. It is only logical, that with greater control exerted by the emperor over IJA, the conflict won't be provoked quite as early. The war will start with 1938 instead, giving Japan an extra year for development. The number and experience of IJA units China will decrease, though.

I think we need to take a break to make our initial premises clearer. See my posts # 8 and 29 about what I can say on them.


On escorts - the first half of my DD proposal already will give Japan the biggest fleet of escorts and escort destroyers in existence at the moment. So it is hard to believe that the need for more will be seen until some time after the beginning of the war in Europe. Even then, Matsu-like destroyers will be too expensive to build when the fleet will need frontline combatants to actually conquer SRA most of all...

So, I believe, the solution here is to start the building of standard-type cargo ships in second half of 1940, foreseeing a great deficit of tonnage in case of a war against the western powers, and, simultaneously, start comissioning Etorofu-class escorts, to protect this tonnage, instead of doing it only in 1942. Build them on the money saved by early standartization of merchant production - hopefully civilian shipyards will be able to handle those hulls, and use guns removed from old destroyers (as was done IRL, except more of them will be available here) to arm these ships. I think ordering 4 in 1940 (available before the war) and 8 in 1941 (available in 1942) won't be a stretch. Start implementing cost-saving measures in the process as well. Introduce improved escort types correspondingly earlier.

Note, that this will make Japan better prepared for ASW warfare than pretty much anyone was upon entering the war, except for equipment flaws. On the other hand, I always found relaxed attidude of everyone in regards to sub threat quite puzzling, after the U-boat rampage during WWI.

[John 3rd]

I never understood how the Japanese weren't terrified of the Commerce War either. Considering how they could see what Germany was doing to Great Britain in 1940 and 1941 it is SOOOOOO mystifying...

[Terminus]

Well, the Japs were just as convinced of the racial inferiority of their Western enemies as vice-versa, so there's that.

[FatR]

I've sent the in-game specs of my proposal to you, John, to avoid further misunderstanding. Checking the agreed-upon parts of the fleet before we continue with the discussion...

BatDiv1--Nagato, Mutsu, Kaga, Tosa
BatDiv2--Ise, Hyuga, Fuso, Yamashiro (None of them modified, conversion options present from the start)
BatDiv3--Kongo, Hiei, Haruna, Kirishima
BatDiv4--Owari, Kii (I'd prefer "Satsuma" for historical symbolism, though ) available, Musashi, Shinano in construction (9x410/50, 29-30 knots battleships. I'll try to master Springsharp program to gauge realistic displacement, or find some existing alt-battleships proposals.)

We have all needed art for the battleships.

CAs/CLs
CruDiv1: (Myoko-Class) Myoko, Nachi, Haguro, Ashigara
CruDiv2: (Takao-Class) Takao, Atago, Maya, Chokai
CruDiv3: (Mogamis-as-CAs, so named after mountains) Niitaka, Tone, Chikuma, Kurama
CruDiv4: (Improved Mogami class) Iwaki, Hikari (Mogamis-as-CLs) Mogami, Mikuma
Building CAs Kasagi and Ikoma (Improved Mogami class) will be assigned to CruDiv4 upon completion, or as needed to replace losses.

CruDiv5: Aoba, Kinugasa, Kako, Furutaka (9x155mm armament)

Leaders of destroyer divisions: Yubari, Naka, Sendai, Jintsu, Kako

Training cruisers: Kuma, Tama, Kitakami

To be assigned to carrier forces as recon/AA defense ships: Yahagi, Agano, ???, ??? (I noticed you think that four of these should be built, if so, two last ships probably should be available late in the war)

In reconstruction as CLAAs/torpedo cruisers, whatever the player prefers: Nagara, Isuzu, Natori, Yura, Kinu, Abukuma.

Reconstructed as CS: Oi, Kiso

Reconstructed as CM: Tenryu, Tatsuta.

Art needed: the scout CLAA, 5500k reconstructed CLAA, reconstructed CS, reconstructed CM, preferably also slightly modified art for Mogami variants and for Aobas/Furutakas with new armament. I'll try to find concept art for the first four when I can, which is not today - easy to do for concepts I lifted from somewhere, not so for others).

[JuanG]

ORIGINAL: FatR

I've sent the in-game specs of my proposal to you, John, to avoid further misunderstanding. Checking the agreed-upon parts of the fleet before we continue with the discussion...

BatDiv1--Nagato, Mutsu, Kaga, Tosa
BatDiv2--Ise, Hyuga, Fuso, Yamashiro (None of them modified, conversion options present from the start)
BatDiv3--Kongo, Hiei, Haruna, Kirishima
BatDiv4--Owari, Kii (I'd prefer "Satsuma" for historical symbolism, though ) available, Musashi, Shinano in construction (9x410/50, 29-30 knots battleships. I'll try to master Springsharp program to gauge realistic displacement, or find some existing alt-battleships proposals.)

We have all needed art for the battleships.

CAs/CLs
CruDiv1: (Myoko-Class) Myoko, Nachi, Haguro, Ashigara
CruDiv2: (Takao-Class) Takao, Atago, Maya, Chokai
CruDiv3: (Mogamis-as-CAs, so named after mountains) Niitaka, Tone, Chikuma, Kurama
CruDiv4: (Improved Mogami class) Iwaki, Hikari (Mogamis-as-CLs) Mogami, Mikuma
Building CAs Kasagi and Ikoma (Improved Mogami class) will be assigned to CruDiv4 upon completion, or as needed to replace losses.

CruDiv5: Aoba, Kinugasa, Kako, Furutaka (9x155mm armament)

Leaders of destroyer divisions: Yubari, Naka, Sendai, Jintsu, Kako

Training cruisers: Kuma, Tama, Kitakami

To be assigned to carrier forces as recon/AA defense ships: Yahagi, Agano, ???, ??? (I noticed you think that four of these should be built, if so, two last ships probably should be available late in the war)

In reconstruction as CLAAs/torpedo cruisers, whatever the player prefers: Nagara, Isuzu, Natori, Yura, Kinu, Abukuma.

Reconstructed as CS: Oi, Kiso

Reconstructed as CM: Tenryu, Tatsuta.

Art needed: the scout CLAA, 5500k reconstructed CLAA, reconstructed CS, reconstructed CM, preferably also slightly modified art for Mogami variants and for Aobas/Furutakas with new armament. I'll try to find concept art for the first four when I can, which is not today - easy to do for concepts I lifted from somewhere, not so for others).

I'm willing to take a shot at the art and getting you some stats for the BBs and other designs with SpringSharp and NAaB if you'd like.

[John 3rd]

JUAN! Great to see you Post. How are you doing Sir?

We shall gladly take you up on your kind offer.

[JuanG]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

JUAN! Great to see you Post. How are you doing Sir?

Hey John, cheers for the welcome. Great to see you guys still working on RA and now this.

I've had a busy year, so I've really only had time to follow overall patch progress and the Babes mod here when I could. Ill probably be around more now that my schedule is less hectic though; have some great ideas for a new set of scenarios.

As said, let me know if you'd like any help; I cant guarantee that my artwork is really up to scratch, but theres only one way to find out! [;)]

[Terminus]

Where are all the planes coming from? Japan couldn't supply her needs IRL, and this seems to make things even harder.

[FatR]

Expansion of the carrier airgroups by extra 40-50 planes or so (bigger Ryujo is compensated by smaller Atago instead of Kaga, two extra Hiryus replace Shoho and Zuiho) is hardly impossible with adequate planning. Simple lack of the screw-up with stopping B5N production far before B6N was ready and quicker start of A6M's production by Nakajima factories should enable that. Pilots will be harder to provide (and carrier-trained pilots, not planes, were the main bottleneck past 1942), so reduction in carrier airgroups' experience, similar to that used to justify LBA expansion in Scen 70, is not unreasonable.

[John 3rd]

Agreed. We'll have to reduce starting experience even more. With RA it was--more or less--confined to the LBA side of the IJN. With this we'll have to apply it throughout.

CVs on December 7th:

CarDIv1: Akagi--Atago (75 Planes each)
CarDiv2: Soryu--Hiryu (63 and 69 Planes)
CarDiv3: Ryujo (69 Planes)
CarDiv4: Hosho (21 Planes)
CarDiv5: Shokaku--Zuikaku (72 Planes each)

Building:
--Zuiho (69 Planes) due April 1942 and Shoho (69 Planes) due August 1942
--2 Shokaku-Kai due (as in RA) in May 1943 and August 1943 (82 Planes each)

No 'conventional' Zuiho, Shoho, or Rhujo (Sp?)

Plane Comparision between 'normal' and this Mod:
--Normal: 621 Planes (75, 81, 63, 69, 72, 72, 48, 30x3, and 21) 6 CV, 1 CV(Medium), 3 CVL, and 1 CVE
--Mod: 654 Planes (No 48, 6 less then Kaga and 3x30 but adding 69x3) 9 CV and 1 CVE

Doesn't seem out of control whatsoever.

[John 3rd]

ORIGINAL: JuanG

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

JUAN! Great to see you Post. How are you doing Sir?

Hey John, cheers for the welcome. Great to see you guys still working on RA and now this.

I've had a busy year, so I've really only had time to follow overall patch progress and the Babes mod here when I could. Ill probably be around more now that my schedule is less hectic though; have some great ideas for a new set of scenarios.

As said, let me know if you'd like any help; I cant guarantee that my artwork is really up to scratch, but theres only one way to find out! [;)]

Juan: I was just perusing a section of Kaigun and they said the Yamato design went through something like 25 differing proposals ranging from 35,000T and 16" guns up. Perhaps you will have that information on the designs somewhere?

Additionally, do you have what Fuso and Ise would have been at start with little modification? We will certainly need that info for this one. I remember you had several different BB conversion possibilities laidout in your Mods. Do you still have those and can you Post them?

[JuanG]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

ORIGINAL: JuanG

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

JUAN! Great to see you Post. How are you doing Sir?

Hey John, cheers for the welcome. Great to see you guys still working on RA and now this.

I've had a busy year, so I've really only had time to follow overall patch progress and the Babes mod here when I could. Ill probably be around more now that my schedule is less hectic though; have some great ideas for a new set of scenarios.

As said, let me know if you'd like any help; I cant guarantee that my artwork is really up to scratch, but theres only one way to find out! [;)]

Juan: I was just perusing a section of Kaigun and they said the Yamato design went through something like 25 differing proposals ranging from 35,000T and 16" guns up. Perhaps you will have that information on the designs somewhere?

Additionally, do you have what Fuso and Ise would have been at start with little modification? We will certainly need that info for this one. I remember you had several different BB conversion possibilities laidout in your Mods. Do you still have those and can you Post them?

Theres a list of some of the numbers for the proto-Yamatos in Anatomy of the Ship - Yamato if I remember correctly, and I'm sure I've seen more numbers elsewhere. Will need to do a little digging.

As for Fuso/Ise classes, could you clarify what you mean 'at start'? As built? As after the first rebuilds for the superstructure only ('24 for Fuso, '31 for Ise)? After a re-engineing without hull extension (Fuso only, '33) or after the full rebuilds ('36-37)?

I had floatplane carrier conversions for both classes in my mods, along with 'fast' BB conversions that sacrifice one of the amidships turrets for more engine space. I can post details on them if you'd like, though might be better to work anew from whatever starting point you choose for these ships.

EDIT: I've got the starts for the Yamato designs, but most of them are notably larger than what you're looking for. Something based off the Hiraga or Fujimoto 16" replacement BBs would probably serve your vision better (similar to my Sagami class in AltWNT).

[John 3rd]

That sounds pretty good regarding the Hiraga/Fujimoto BBs.

Regarding the older BBs the 24 and 31 rebuilds would do. We'll save the late-30s for whatever the player decides to do. The conversion/upgrade options could make for some good discussion and Posts. What sort of ideas are out there? You have listed two:

1. FP Conversion
2. Fast BB Modification
3. I'd think some sort of heavy AA might be another.

Thoughts?

[JuanG]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

That sounds pretty good regarding the Hiraga/Fujimoto BBs.

Regarding the older BBs the 24 and 31 rebuilds would do. We'll save the late-30s for whatever the player decides to do. The conversion/upgrade options could make for some good discussion and Posts. What sort of ideas are out there? You have listed two:

1. FP Conversion
2. Fast BB Modification
3. I'd think some sort of heavy AA might be another.

Thoughts?

Alright. Firstly, here are the specs for the Hiraga and Fujimoto BB designs; I used these as benchmarks when I designed the Sagami class for AltWNT, as they date from the same time period. You could use these directly, or I can base a design with specific requirements off them if you'd like.


Hiraga BB
760ft x 105ft x 30ft
35,000t Standard

10 x 410mm/45 (Layout 2x3 + 2x2)
16 x 152mm (Layout 4x2 + 8 casemates)
8 x 120mm (Layout 4x2)

26.3kts @ 80,000hp

Protection from 410mm guns (~320mm belt, ~160mm deck) The armour scheme is noted as being extremely compact, taking the all or nothing concept to its limit.


Fujimoto BB
761ft x 105ft x 29.5ft
35,000t Standard

9 x 410mm/45 (Layout 3x3)
12 x 152mm (Layout 6x2)
8 x 120mm (Layout 4x2)

25.9kts @ 73,000hp

Protection from 410mm guns (~330mm belt, ~170mm deck) While there are no exact details, the armour was less compact that on the Hiraga design, and likely slightly thicker given weight saved elsewhere.

Here are the two drawings side by side;


Regarding Fuso and Ise; as mentioned, both underwent 2 stages of rebuilds (technically 3 for Fuso herself); the first featured a reconstruction of the superstructure, along with an increase to main battery elevation to 30 degrees (from ~28,000yds to ~33,000yds) from 25 degrees (except for Ise/Hyuga's last 2 turrets, which were never modified). Updated 8cm/40 AA guns were fitted.

The second rebuild was much more extensive, and included conversion from mixed coal/oil propulsion to oil only, along with new machinery, resulting in an increase from 40,000hp to around 75,000hp. The hulls were lengthended, and improvements were made to deck and anti-torpedo protection. AA weapons were updated again, with both ships receiving their wartime 12.7cm/40 mounts, along with some light AA. Main gun elevation increased to 43 degrees (~39,000yds), and secondaries to 30 degrees on Fuso class.

Regarding a heavy AA variant, one option would be to replace all the 12.7cm/40s with new 12.7cm/50 DP guns, loosing one of the middle turrets for more deck space. This would allow maybe 8x2 or 10x2 12.7cm/50 guns. The only bottleneck is production of these in your timeline.

[FatR]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Agreed. We'll have to reduce starting experience even more.
Depending on whether we want to keep expanded LBA.

With RA it was--more or less--confined to the LBA side of the IJN. With this we'll have to apply it throughout.

CVs on December 7th:

CarDIv1: Akagi--Atago (75 Planes each)
CarDiv2: Soryu--Hiryu (63 and 69 Planes)
CarDiv3: Ryujo (69 Planes)
CarDiv4: Hosho (21 Planes)
CarDiv5: Shokaku--Zuikaku (72 Planes each)

Building:
--Zuiho (69 Planes) due April 1942 and Shoho (69 Planes) due August 1942
--2 Shokaku-Kai due (as in RA) in May 1943 and August 1943 (82 Planes each)

No 'conventional' Zuiho, Shoho, or Rhujo (Sp?)

Plane Comparision between 'normal' and this Mod:
--Normal: 621 Planes (75, 81, 63, 69, 72, 72, 48, 30x3, and 21) 6 CV, 1 CV(Medium), 3 CVL, and 1 CVE
--Mod: 654 Planes (No 48, 6 less then Kaga and 3x30 but adding 69x3) 9 CV and 1 CVE

Doesn't seem out of control whatsoever.

You forgot Junyo and Hiyo in both calculations for both sides. Technically, Hiryu-class Zuiho and Shoho can and should be available at the start. They will actually occupy shipyards for less combined time, than shadow rebuilds. And they will be laid down instead of them, i.e., four years before the war. And repeat Shokaku carriers, laid down in late 1940 can be completed in winter - early spring of 1943 (construction of Unryu too 2 years, but here it will be slightly slower). That's what I envisioned, and that's the gameplay reason I'm opposed to making Ryujo so big.

What I see, at the opening of hostilities:
Stock:
Akagi (81),Kaga (72), Soryu (63), Hiryu (71), Shokaku (72), Zuikaku (72), Ryujo (48), Zuiho (30), Hosho (20), Taiyo (27) = 556

Mod:
Akagi (81), Atago (64), Soryu (63), Hiryu (71), repeat Hiryu 1 (71), repeat Hiryu 2 (71), Shokaku (72), Zuikaku (72), Ryujo (48), Hosho (20) = 633

Added later in 1942

Stock:
Junyo (53), Hiyo (53), Shoho (30), Ryuho (31), Unyo (27), Chuyo (27) = 221

Mod:
Junyo (53), Hiyo (53) = 106

Total by the end of 1942, assuming no losses:

Stock: 773
Mod: 739

Considering that Taiyo-class escort carriers did not have active airgroups IRL, stock and mod almost break even. In the beginning disparity is greater than I thought, but even 70 planes are hardly impossible to produce, when there are obvious solutions for that (see above).

From gameplay perspective Japan actually falls behind in the number of carrier planes by the end of 1942, but these planes are based on much superior platforms. Japanese carrier fleet will fare much better in 1943 and later.

I'm assuming here that Ryujo in the mod can honestly carry 48 planes.

[FatR]

On characteristics of post-treaty Jap battleships: I've found this comparative table of RL Yamato class projects.

Earlier projects are above and later below. 10th year is 1935. Main guns are 460mm on all variants (A/B/C are variants of placement: A - 3 turrets fore, B - 2 fore, 1 aft, C - 2 fore, 2 aft). The last column is safety zone where belt can stop shells of 18-inch guns from penetrating; or, if entry is marked with a star, shells of 410-mm guns from penetrating, offering no real protection against 18-inch fire.



I actually like project J2 here (except for presense medium-calibre turrets at the expense of DP battery...). Range is rather short, but this is a middle-stage project with a less advanced combined diesel-turbine power plant, maybe it can be a bit better in the final stage. Cost should be a lot lower than that of actual Yamato, thanks to far lower dispacement and thinner armor (meaning no need to construct expensive special equipment for uber-thick armor plating), allowing to use all 4 available battleships shipyards simultaneously and actually complete 4 of these ships. While I initially proposed BB with 410/50 main guns (old 410/45 is no longer adequate), if we need to develop a new main gun anyway, why not go for 460mm?

[FatR]

ORIGINAL: JuanG

Regarding Fuso and Ise; as mentioned, both underwent 2 stages of rebuilds (technically 3 for Fuso herself); the first featured a reconstruction of the superstructure, along with an increase to main battery elevation to 30 degrees (from ~28,000yds to ~33,000yds) from 25 degrees (except for Ise/Hyuga's last 2 turrets, which were never modified). Updated 8cm/40 AA guns were fitted.

The second rebuild was much more extensive, and included conversion from mixed coal/oil propulsion to oil only, along with new machinery, resulting in an increase from 40,000hp to around 75,000hp. The hulls were lengthended, and improvements were made to deck and anti-torpedo protection. AA weapons were updated again, with both ships receiving their wartime 12.7cm/40 mounts, along with some light AA. Main gun elevation increased to 43 degrees (~39,000yds), and secondaries to 30 degrees on Fuso class.

Thanks for the information. I assume the first rebuild can be performed in this alternative, due to being relatively cheap, so we can use old art for Fuso/Ise.

ORIGINAL: JuanG
Regarding a heavy AA variant, one option would be to replace all the 12.7cm/40s with new 12.7cm/50 DP guns, loosing one of the middle turrets for more deck space. This would allow maybe 8x2 or 10x2 12.7cm/50 guns. The only bottleneck is production of these in your timeline.

Production should not be very high, seeing as 100/65 was produced at glacial rates, particularly early in the war, IRL (although, I suspect that 100/65 turrets being too heavy to just replace 127/40 with them on many ships played a role). Due to high demand by new destroyers and cruisers, I don't think that this rebuild, if possible, should be available before 1944.

[John 3rd]

I've got to the more-or-less out of the loop for the next 4 days with family vacation up in the mountains. Will have internet access so I'll jump in for little contributions when I can.