We would need another Sudden Death objective for the German player. Maybe a radius? If the Germans get within ten hexes of Anzio or better hold terrain within ten hexes of Anzio until turn 30? Or if they get to the Overpass/Flyover or to La Cogna on the south side of the Mussolini Canal? Something like this..
I'm speaking from at least partial ignorance here -- but wasn't the Allies' most egregious error failing to advance at the start? Wouldn't it follow that a sudden death German win would consist of actually managing to contain the beachhead within its historical dimensions?
On the Allies error: Yes. On the rest: I see your point, i'm open for further discussion.
@Colin, Telumar
I think with this version of the scenario -- the short option for the human is to hold the 3 objectives. Historically, the Germans did better, but the Allies were more cautious. Here we have Elmer vs Human button-mashers -- unlikely to be as cautious.
I think in the H2H version (PBEM), Colin's argument is more valid -- Telumar's hypothesis is just that -- better generalship, more aggressive style, focus on the Val. Gap will lead to the Germans withdrawing out of southern Italy. Myself, I think he's wrong -- unless the Allies get more historical reinforcements earlier; but then we wound up re-playing Verdun along the Musso Canal for umpteen turns as a result.
It's late here, i am willing to discuss this all, but tomorrow. I even might get convinced [:D].
In the meantime it might be good idea to show how the VPs are distributed on the map. The map also shows historical frontlines projected on the scenario map: Orange is the beachhead when Fischfang petered out on February 19th, orange plus yellow is the historical maximum Allied advance as of February 3rd, just at the start of the "battle for the thumb". Note that von Mackensen decided to ground away the salient with attacks on either side along its length instead of a focused thrust to cut it off. Why do i mention this? To show that the Germans too could have done better.
And the distribution of EEV locations. Unnamed, unnumbered dots give 1 EEV point. For the long run Allied Sudden Death chances begin with an EEV value of 75.
Well, I didn't mean it as a general rule. But for this special scenario: The allies wanted a breakthrough. For TOAW is a game with limited possibilites, we simply say: if the allied PO gets Aprilia, Osterricia und Cisterna, it has its breakthrough. Victory. If it doesn't, no victory. But this must not mean a german victory. The germans wanted to destroy the invasion. The question is: How would they have achieved that? Would it be enough not to loose Aprilia, Ostericcia and Cisterna? Certainly not. So in this special scenario, I would call this a draw.
For me its not a matter of realism, but of fun of play. If it's enough to defend ONE of this cities to win, why take any offensive measures? Especially if it is unlikely to get Anzio either? So for a win the germans should make a successful offensive action. What about holding Aprilia after turn 25? Not a matter of realism, I know [;)]
Better not something like "have a unit within 10 hex radius of anzio". elmer isn't that smart. I sneaked in several units. Elmer this time defended his backland, so I could not make much damage, BUT he didn't hunt down all my units. Just sneak in a few counter and fortify them within 10 hexes of anzio. Then do not move them again. Chances are high, that Elmer destroys some and lets some others unharmed.
You not even can call it an exploit, because then it would also be a exploit to march on Anzio. [:D] Imagine you build up a front 8 hexes from anzio. Elmer stops your advance, but you have sufficient troops to hold the line, at least for some turns. Victory. Does not feel ok that way, does it?
One more thing. Please do not overestimate Elmers abbilities because of the end screen of my second run. His major breakthrough was in the last few turns. I'm not the player still micromanaging when the scenario is almost over and a situation will not influence the outcome. Please also keep in mind, that Elmer had chosen to paradrop. So he got Aprilia without a fight and "started" two or three hex vom osterriccia. There he got one or two hexes throughout the 30 turns, although I decided to commit a lot of strength to my offensive attempts left and down south. WHAT Elmer achieved was Cisterna. He did a good job there.
He did not a good job at osterricia. I think even worn out as I was I could have driven him back a few hexes (his brits there were in an even worse condition than my germans [;)]).
So it will be quite interesting to see, how Ogars game will develop. Elmer has taken Aprilia, but it's quite near to the front. I guess Elmer will never even see the outskirts of Osterrica, even if Ogars gives in some ground. Before changing the victory conditions we should wait, how this game develops. So, go on, Ogar! [:)]
Well, I didn't mean it as a general rule. But for this special scenario: The allies wanted a breakthrough. For TOAW is a game with limited possibilites, we simply say: if the allied PO gets Aprilia, Osterricia und Cisterna, it has its breakthrough. Victory. If it doesn't, no victory. But this must not mean a german victory. The germans wanted to destroy the invasion. The question is: How would they have achieved that? Would it be enough not to loose Aprilia, Ostericcia and Cisterna? Certainly not. So in this special scenario, I would call this a draw.
I see a draw as something else. It's what should result if two players perform equally well -- or if versus the P.O., if the human player performs with average competence. Given ten matches with the P.O., the human player should win four times, lose four times, and draw twice -- the victory conditions should be geared to produce results something like that. Whether such 'wins' or 'losses' signify victory in reality is neither here nor there.
What you suggest would ultimately make most campaigns unwinnable for one side. After all, is the US player to hold the Philippines indefinitely to win in a 1942 scenario? Would Rommel have to successfully take Egypt to win in a North Africa scenario? After all, he certainly outplayed his adversaries. If we have a France 1940 scenario, and at scenario end, the Germans have a good hold on Belgium but the French army is still intact, is that to be a German win?
There's 'victory' in the sense of objective reality, and then there's victory in the sense of outplaying one's opponent. The Finns indubitably lost the Winter War -- but they certainly outplayed their opponent. In game terms, they won.
Well, I guess I got your point. Still I disagree [;)]. For me, a draw is, if both sides do not achieve their goals. In our case, if the allies cannot make a breakthrough and the germans cannot throw the allies back to the sea.
I agree, that the victory conditions should have nothing to do with reality. But - for the feeling - should be seen in some context. I do not think it makes sense to look at the real battles for defining victory. It simply depends on the scenario.
For example FITE. Germany is - in this scenario - not designed to conquer Russia. It simply - if we have a competent russian player - will not happen. So of course it would be unfair to make "conquering all of Russia" a victory condition. But there may be another scenario, where the design allows Germany to conquer Russia. There we have other victory conditions than in FITE.
So there is no sense in "when has France won in 1940" without looking at the special scenario. In EA France is not designed to hold out - so an allied "victory" is if a german player has higher losses than usual. In an other scenario France might have a chance to stop the germans.
Back to Anzio. What can be achieved by the players? Has the german player enough power to take Anzio? I think so. Has Elmer enough power to take all three cities (in the 30 turns game). Well, maybe. Not sure. I doubt it, if one plays very defensive. So for gameplay of this special scenario, the german player should be "forced" to become offensive, if he wants to win.
But you may post your ideas of victory conditions. [:)]
@Telumar: Elmer will never come to the Alban Hills, I guess (not in the 30 turns scenario). The german backland won'T matter much, I think. By the way, do you plan to make a german PO too?
I started to type " Well, I'm not convinced..." Ahem -- it's Telumar that needs convincing. Sooooo...
I still stand by my idea for the short option -- Anzio is game over, period. 2 of the 3 (Aprilia, Oster. Cisterna) cities at turn 31 is German victory. Holding 1 of the 3 is a draw. Less is a German loss.
Conditions will be different from the long game, or for PBEM 1KM, or for the 2KM version.
But after 6 1/2 days (real time) -- if the PO gets farther than the Allies did in 3 months, it's either a draw or German loss. I'm with Penney and Lucas -- the Allies do not have the resources to risk going all out that early, but in the short game, Elmer will risk it. After all, the PO leads attacks with stacks of 200+ Bedfords -- and SUCCEEDS !
And the only way you can hold 1 or 2 of the cities is to counterattack -- with what, Cfant will say, and he is correct. Resources come in to each side in a nicely balanced swing -- you are never very far ahead of the other side, but once in a while, you get an edge. So the human has to attack to survive, and that will provide the game.
As for the Alban Hills, it will happen in the long game. In A2KM, the Allied PO sents the BR on a wide swing around and thru the Hills -- they visit the Pope's palace, check the ruins of the Sybil at Nemi, do interesting research on the long-term effects of Hannibal's campaign in the countryside leading to Roman concentration in the urbs, and oh, yeah, they smack the (*&^ out of the human player while doing so. It takes till after T30 to see this.
As for my game -- patience, I'm slow, and I'm looking at some different things -- will the fleet do what Telumar says (just to confirm that); how does the air game play out; can a counterattack strike between the Via Anzate and Cisterna road, how far does that get ?
ORIGINAL: Cfant2
Better not something like "have a unit within 10 hex radius of anzio". elmer isn't that smart. I sneaked in several units. Elmer this time defended his backland, so I could not make much damage, BUT he didn't hunt down all my units. Just sneak in a few counter and fortify them within 10 hexes of anzio. Then do not move them again. Chances are high, that Elmer destroys some and lets some others unharmed.
You're right, this can happen. I've seen this myself.
There's 'victory' in the sense of objective reality, and then there's victory in the sense of outplaying one's opponent. The Finns indubitably lost the Winter War -- but they certainly outplayed their opponent. In game terms, they won.
I'm more with the objective reality approach. And i think i will leave victory conditions as they are (except for the short game option).
Also note that the paradrop costs 100 VPs which makes a difference of one victory level at the outer extremes (draw range is 200 VPs in this scenario), but for the short game this plays no role. Except if i let the short game end with the End Normal event if no Victory condition is met, that is if the EEV is lower than 60.
@Telumar: Elmer will never come to the Alban Hills, I guess (not in the 30 turns scenario). The german backland won'T matter much, I think. By the way, do you plan to make a german PO too?
It seems he never will come so far. We will see. There is still room for some modifications to the scenario. It won't be unrealistic to lower supply and readiness levels of arriving German reinforcements.
A German PO is currently out of question. Not before the 3.5 patch for which i already plan to update the scenario and to merge the Allied PO/Human vs Human version. I will have to rearrange, among other things, all the events which is a lot of work, so probably it won't make it into the patch.
Slowly catching up with Cfant -- I'm on turn 11 -- afternoon and turn 2 of 4 with The Big Storm. Unfortunately, Elmer does not do house rules, but the air shock of 25% takes some of the sting out of his 120 Spitfire attacks. In this version, there's no shock to the Allied Fleet, so they're still out banging away.
Good news for the Germans is that both air and naval are not as potent during the storm, and they do not seem to show up in defensive support during the storm turns. I need to carefully track this, but so far, that's a plus.
I'm still being good, Santa -- no night time air attacks on the fleet; okay, I cannot see them so I cannot attack them, but I am not attacking them.
I'm still taking a slower swing at this -- seeing what the PO does with air and naval and with the withdrawals and replacements, especially as the short game changes things.
I'll put up a general pix, and then an interesting combat result.
Attachments
A1KM_T11_AxisCtr1.jpg (199.21 KiB) Viewed 686 times
See those two stacks I circled ? There are a couple of Sherman companies and a couple of engineers with major ferry and a TD company in the northern one. The other is another major ferry engineer, plus 2 HQs, a Sherman and a Stuart company.
They arrived in this spot about 5 turns okay, taking a side-step approach across that destroyed bridge, using the major ferry units as stepping stones. Then they hit the defensive wall and stalled. Since then, Elmer has not done much with them. Once there was an attack that failed to get to the destroyed bridge, and a couple of attacks toward the formation objective -- Cisterna -- which failed. Mostly I've been walling them in and shelling constantly, plus chipping at the edges -- I already evapped a recon troop and a TD company.
So, in turn 11, I decided to hold off any attack and shell again. I'm curious as to why/how the PO will not do the obvious thing -- throw a major ferry unit back across the super river and either evacuate or bring in supplies and support. But nothing happens.
Except this ...
Those evaporated tanks were Stuarts -- the most difficult equipment except for armored cars to damage/destroy in this scenario -- and they are gone; of course, the unit was done to 1% supply so only a few tanks were operational, but I have not been so successful with artillery against armor. Just amazing what cutting off supply will do...
I'm continuing to shell and trap those units, while pulling out the HG PZGR and HG PZAA and sending them and the HG Panzers 'northwest' into that bulge above Padiglione, and then, onto the Flyover while those stugs Telumar promised me (and have shown up) will work their way down the highway to keep the PO focused on that front.
See those two stacks I circled ? There are a couple of Sherman companies and a couple of engineers with major ferry and a TD company in the northern one. The other is another major ferry engineer, plus 2 HQs, a Sherman and a Stuart company.
They arrived in this spot about 5 turns okay, taking a side-step approach across that destroyed bridge, using the major ferry units as stepping stones. Then they hit the defensive wall and stalled. Since then, Elmer has not done much with them. Once there was an attack that failed to get to the destroyed bridge, and a couple of attacks toward the formation objective -- Cisterna -- which failed. Mostly I've been walling them in and shelling constantly, plus chipping at the edges -- I already evapped a recon troop and a TD company.
Stupid Elmer. The 3rd Division's passiveness/not-crossing of the Canal messes things up. While you can dig in with the bulk of the HG Pz behind the Canal all reserves can be thrown against the Brits. I had observed this Elmer behaviour in several of my own runs, too and regard it as an issue. In the latest beta version i've taken measures that Elmer crosses the Canal early.
while pulling out the HG PZGR and HG PZAA and sending them and the HG Panzers 'northwest' into that bulge above Padiglione, and then, onto the Flyover while those stugs Telumar promised me (and have shown up) will work their way down the highway to keep the PO focused on that front.
Interesting. You've chosen one of Elmer's weak points for your attack. Let's see how he reacts to that.
I've finished a new version with various enhancements:
- Allied Navy now goes to garrison on PM turns
- Air shocks changed from 25% to 5%. Elmer still flew missions with the 25% air shock (sic!).
- Air shock for both sides on PM turns
- Added Rear Area units for Elmer. A company sized unit in garrison mode will appear in each of the major VP/EEV locations Cisterna, Osteriaccia and Aprilia once Elmer takes such an objective.
- Elmer should now cross the Mussolini Canal early
- A small number of Elmer's air units is now set to interdiction and in garrison mode.
- 4.FJ Div's battalions "Hauber" and "Kleye" are now foot movement units. I've put their entry hexes further south to compensate for the reduced MPs.
- 16.RFSS battalions' unit proficiencies set from 85 to 75
I didn't change victory conditions. In the short game the scenario will end with the normal victory tally if no side achieves Sudden Death.
The navy going to garrison during PM and storm turns is still an issue, but we will have to live with that for now. While Elmer can't use it in direct attacks the navy still can support battles with 'free cooperation' units involved (US Corps troops like Tank Bns, TDs, Combat Engineers).
ORIGINAL: Telumar
- 4.FJ Div's battalions "Hauber" and "Kleye" are now foot movement units. I've put their entry hexes further south to compensate for the reduced MPs.
If you don't want to go over to road/rails, another trick you can use that Jarek-the-vanished-Pole came up with is to create a 'static truck' weapon.
The unit will have a mechanized movement rate for its first turn, then lose it. Assuming you don't provide any replacement 'static trucks,' it won't get them back either, since none will go into the pool. Yer Fallshirmjaeger could head towards their assigned sector in trucks, then revert to foot units.
It's not clear if this would be of use to you here, but it's something else to put into the ol' toolbox.
ORIGINAL: Telumar
- 4.FJ Div's battalions "Hauber" and "Kleye" are now foot movement units. I've put their entry hexes further south to compensate for the reduced MPs.
If you don't want to go over to road/rails, another trick you can use that Jarek-the-vanished-Pole came up with is to create a 'static truck' weapon.
The unit will have a mechanized movement rate for its first turn, then lose it. Assuming you don't provide any replacement 'static trucks,' it won't get them back either, since none will go into the pool. Yer Fallshirmjaeger could head towards their assigned sector in trucks, then revert to foot units.
It's not clear if this would be of use to you here, but it's something else to put into the ol' toolbox.
Wow! Ye elder master of the ancient craft..[&o]
Thanks. Will try. It's not necessary needed for these two battalions, but the Fallschirm Lehr Battalion and 1.Fallschirmjäger's KG could use it. The Brandenburgers probably, too. Maybe even 715. Inf Div (t.mot.).
Beginning of turn 5 (pre-dawn, January 23rd) on the German right/Via Anziate. Elmer didn't drop the Paras on turn 1 which is good. However the Brits attack relentlessly and have achieved a breakthrough in Elmer's turn. Still Aprilia holds and it's a long way to Osteriaccia. 3rd PzGren Div will have to plug the gap Elmer created. At least for the time being, the Brits will bring in one more Infantry brigade and the Royal Tank Regiment very soon. As Gericke's two battalions and the FJ Lehr are now foot-movement units they will secure the Moletta. II/71.PzGR (grey on grey) will be transferred to the Via Anziate sector.
