Future development

[Phoenix100]

Sounds interesting - the Flashpoint thing. Truth is a WW2 commander would have nothing like the info we have available in BFTB/COTA/HTTR- especially about your own forces (fog of war, info delays etc should apply to own forces just as much as to enemy if you want realism). So compromises are still made - to provide a 'game' (not a simulation) in BFTB. My memory of playing Flashpoint, however, was that the AI was very obviously scripted, just as it is in Combat Mission (Shock Force, Normandy and the rest) as far as the enemy goes, and very basic reactive AI as far as friendlies go. That's the big diff. And it's what makes BFTB etc more rewarding to play. In a way, because the AI is developed, it's like playing MP. On that score, I've only played MP once so far in BFTB, but it was fantastic. Better than playing the AI, because the AI was there to do all that subordinate stuff, and yet I was engaging wiht a real person. And what's the point of engaging with a computer, at the end of the day? But I think Panther have it right that if you can get the AI as developed as possible - so that it's almost possible to believe you're not playing a computer - then that will make for a cracking MP experience. That and only that, perhaps. Plus you can spend hours 'training', against the AI. Endless hours. We all would probably like to have a gaming experience that would be like an hallucination- you are there, with just whhat a commander on the ground would have had available, seeing what he would have seen etc. That would suggest a 3d direction to develoment, and that's what all the development effort goes into at the moment, in the industry. But it will have to change. Because the graphics environment will only take you so far. Aftere that AI is desperately needed to make the game, any game, challenging and gripping. And providing more graphic/environmentaldetail actually limits the gaps that your imagination can fill much better than any painting. Because that's what all the graphics are in all the other games - paintings. None of them - from top notch graphic intensive shooters such as Battlefield, down through Combat Mission and the like - none of them look even vaguely real when you compare them to reality or even pictures of reality. And maybe never will. Reality is so very detailed, so very dynamic. The truth is that games like BFTB, because they've concentrated on providing a realistic opponent and staff, come much closer to that immersive ideal that we all want, I suspect. Like Johndoesecond said- it's an endangered species. I just wish I had money to fund them in advance, to keep it going. Because I'm sure it must be only pocket money for them. Maybe we should write to Bill Gates ans suggest he give it a go - then sponsor them.....

[Perturabo]

ORIGINAL: phoenix

Sounds interesting - the Flashpoint thing. Truth is a WW2 commander would have nothing like the info we have available in BFTB/COTA/HTTR- especially about your own forces (fog of war, info delays etc should apply to own forces just as much as to enemy if you want realism). So compromises are still made - to provide a 'game' (not a simulation) in BFTB.

It's not really to provide a 'game'. I remember someone asking about friendly fog of war and the answer was that it would be simply impossible to do without insane system requirements because all the information that units have would have to be stored and processed individually for each unit instead of for each side. The system requirements are already pretty high and with such a drastic increase of complexity it would probably require one of these scientific supercomputers.

ORIGINAL: phoenix

My memory of playing Flashpoint, however, was that the AI was very obviously scripted, just as it is in Combat Mission (Shock Force, Normandy and the rest) as far as the enemy goes, and very basic reactive AI as far as friendlies go. That's the big diff.

Well, it's enough when one is commanding a platoon or a company.

ORIGINAL: phoenix

We all would probably like to have a gaming experience that would be like an hallucination- you are there, with just whhat a commander on the ground would have had available, seeing what he would have seen etc. That would suggest a 3d direction to develoment, and that's what all the development effort goes into at the moment, in the industry. But it will have to change. Because the graphics environment will only take you so far.

To be honest, I was never very fond of the race for photorealistic graphics. Especially, that it ended up with creepy stuff like characters and environments that look like a movie but after a longer look, it turns out that everything looks unnatural with creepy textures that make it look like cardboard models.

Generally, even simple vector graphics are good enough for me. I prefer that and older "photorealistic" graphics like in Mafia and Operation Flashpoint as they don't give me that creepy uncanny valley feeling that modern games do.

ORIGINAL: phoenix

Aftere that AI is desperately needed to make the game, any game, challenging and gripping. And providing more graphic/environmentaldetail actually limits the gaps that your imagination can fill much better than any painting. Because that's what all the graphics are in all the other games - paintings. None of them - from top notch graphic intensive shooters such as Battlefield, down through Combat Mission and the like - none of them look even vaguely real when you compare them to reality or even pictures of reality. And maybe never will. Reality is so very detailed, so very dynamic. The truth is that games like BFTB, because they've concentrated on providing a realistic opponent and staff, come much closer to that immersive ideal that we all want, I suspect. Like Johndoesecond said- it's an endangered species. I just wish I had money to fund them in advance, to keep it going. Because I'm sure it must be only pocket money for them. Maybe we should write to Bill Gates ans suggest he give it a go - then sponsor them.....

The main problem is that majority of gamers is still willing to buy games with very poor AI. As for funding - they have chosen a price that they consider necessary to keep going and got big enough sales with it, so I don't think any sponsoring be necessary.
I think that it would be useful if someone would sponsor popularisation of military history and realistic wargaming and for educating potential developers who could also make AI-heavy wargames, though.

[Phoenix100]

What's the 'armoured brigade' link, Peturabo? Reluctant to click on it without more info.

[Lieste]

It's cool. Nice little tactical game. 

[Perturabo]

ORIGINAL: phoenix

What's the 'armoured brigade' link, Peturabo? Reluctant to click on it without more info.

Overview:
Armored Brigade is a freeware tactical wargame, focusing on realism and playability.

Main features:

* Real-time engine
* Time period: 1987
* Nationalities: Finland, FRG, USA, USSR
* Lowest level unit is a single team/vehicle
* Dynamic AI
* Maximum map size about 15x15 kilometers
* Artillery with several munition types
* Close air support, air defences. Air-to-air engagements are possible
* Fortifications, obstacles and breaching
* Dynamic time of day and variable visibility, wind and ground conditions
* Night vision equipment, smoke generators, illumination flares
* Unit morale, experience level and fatigue, command delay
* External XML database for the armies, units, weapons etc.
* Battle and map generator
* 3D sound engine

Planned:

* Wider time-frame: 1939-1945, 1965-1991
* More nationalities
* Scenarios and editors
* Linux and Mac OS-X support

[Phoenix100]

Thanks.

[Prince of Eckmühl]

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

We have also kick started a new East Front development. This will be a new game with new features, focussing primarily on Soviet doctrine.

Are you going to keep the unit scale at the company/platoon level?

[Arjuna]

Yep.

[Waffenamt]

Excellent.

[Pawsy]

Just played demo after watching the youtube tutorials. Excellent I now know how to play the game. Played loads of war games but this one never hooked me until your videos. Thanks - purchase on the way! Cant wait for eastern front will be buy on site, this was a sleeper for me so glad I didnt miss it.

[Arjuna]

starbuck310,

Thanks for the feedback and welcome to the community.

[Llyranor]

Eastern Front? Neat! I'll be there day1!

I've been putting the series on hold for a little while. My PvP buddy seems to be too lazy to get proper sessions going. I think I might just have to get back to playing against AI.

(Little aside: Please keep considering co-op play against AI! Hehehe - that'll drag my buddy back into this easily enough)

EDIT: Another quick aside: Thanks for making these games, and keep making them! This series is singlehandedly responsible for getting me interesting in acquiring WW2 books (and the majority of those I own still cover the battles featured in your games - for now), and has prompted me to travel to Europe to visit battlefields (Market-Garden last year, Normandy this year even though you didn't make the game for it yet!). Ardennes and Crete are in the plans as well. Cheers!