THE THREAD!!!

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

Nik posted some horse pictures in Rhonda's thred in "General Forum"...

tm.asp?m=2819234


Leo "Apollo11"

[jeffk3510]

Good afternoon. First day it has not been over 100 in MONTHS. I am wearing a jacket (fleece mind you) at work today. LOVE IT!

[Mynok]

Well, it looks like Fabregas is gone. The road to the Premiership just got a lot steeper for the Gunners.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

ORIGINAL: Dixie

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Considering the state of the British military, you'll probably end up on the frontlines of this one, Dixie...[:'(]

Yep. And Mrs Miggin's Pie Shop will be the safest place in London when we get called in [:D]

Just stay away from the huge suspicious-looking sausage.

Warspite1

Mrs. Miggins: Bonjour, Monsieur
Blackadder: Excuse me.
Mrs. Miggins: It's French.
Blackadder: So is eating frogs, cruelty to geese and urinating on the streets. [;)]

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Mynok


Well, it looks like Fabregas is gone. The road to the Premiership just got a lot steeper for the Gunners.

Warspite1

Interesting......surely they won't let Nasri go too?

[Mynok]

Haven't heard as much about him. But I'm also a long way away from the grapevine.

Sounded to me like Fabregas wanted to go home. Not much to be done about that.

[DuckofTindalos]

Midnight Tithe...[>:][>:]

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

Good morning!


Leo "Apollo11"

[DuckofTindalos]

Rainy Thursday Tithe...

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

Incredibly but for the past 3 months F-22 Raptors are grounded and now even new F-35 Lighting II that are in early evaluation are grounded as well... [X(]

High costs, malfunctions plague F-22 Raptor fighter jets

By LA Times USA


The F-22 Raptor jet hasn’t been used in conflicts because its technology wasn’t needed, Air Force officials say, adding that the F-22 is worth its high price tag -- an estimated $412 million each -- because it is the “most advanced fighter aircraft, with unrivaled capabilities.” (Ben Stansall, AFP/Getty Images / August 7, 2011):







It's the most expensive fighter jet ever built. Yet the F-22 Raptor has never seen a day of combat, and its future is clouded by a government safety investigation that has grounded the jet for months.

The fleet of 158 F-22s has been sidelined since May 3, after more than a dozen incidents in which oxygen was cut off to pilots, making them woozy. The malfunction is suspected of contributing to at least one fatal accident.

At an estimated cost of $412 million each, the F-22s amount to about $65 billion sitting on the tarmac. The grounding is the latest dark chapter for an aircraft plagued by problems, and whose need was called into question even before its first test flight.

The sleek, diamond-winged fighter was conceived during the Cold War in the early 1980s to thump a new generation of Soviet fighter jets in dogfights. But with the collapse of the Soviet Union, the Soviet fighters that the U.S. military planners feared never moved beyond development and were never built.

Now, while other U.S. warplanes pummel targets, the F-22 has sat silently throughout battles in Afghanistan. It has gone unused in Iraq. There has been no call for it in the conflict above Libya.

"For all that gigantic cost, you have a system you can't even use," said Winslow T. Wheeler, a defense budget specialist and frequent Pentagon critic at the Center for Defense Information. "It's a fundamental explanation on how the country has gotten itself in the financial mess that it's in today."

Designed in Burbank and built in Marietta, Ga., the F-22 won the final go-ahead from Congress in 1991, thanks in part to a lobbying campaign by the plane's manufacturer, Lockheed Martin Corp. — then Lockheed Corp. — and its near 1,100 subcontractors in 44 states.

"The Cold War was over, it didn't make any sense to go forward with the program," said Thomas Christie, a retired official who worked 50 years at the Pentagon. "But the Air Force built up such a large constituency up on the Hill that it couldn't be killed."

The Air Force wanted an engineering marvel with unmatched features of any other aircraft. Lockheed Martin delivered.

F-22 engines have thrust-vectoring nozzles that can move up and down, making the plane exceptionally agile. It can reach supersonic speeds without using afterburners, enabling the plane to fly faster and farther. It's also packed with cutting-edge radar and sensors, allowing the pilot to identify, track and shoot an aircraft before the enemy pilot can detect the F-22.

"The Air Force piled it all on," said Pierre Sprey, an aeronautical engineer who helped design the F-16 and A-10 jets. "It became a vehicle to carry a laundry list of technologies. The plane is a textbook case on the dangers of complexity."

As the Air Force saw more opportunities for design changes, the F-22 grew in cost. When the plane first entered service in 2005, it didn't take long for problems to arise.

In 2006, an F-22 pilot was stuck in the plane on the ground for five hours because the canopy wouldn't pop open. Firefighters had to cut the pilot out. A replacement canopy cost about $71,000, the Air Force said.

In 2007, a software error in the navigational systems caused 12 F-22s to turn around from a flight to Okinawa, Japan, from Joint Base Pearl Harbor-Hickam in Hawaii. Six days later, engineers corrected the error at a cost of between $200,000 and $300,000, the Air Force estimated.

Last year, the fighters were inspected for rust corrosion "due to poorly designed drainage in the cockpit," according to the House Armed Services Committee. Fourteen F-22s had rusting parts in the cockpit replaced, the Air Force said.

Corrosion has also been an issue with the plane's radar-evading skin, which, the U.S. Government Accountability Office said, is "difficult to manage and maintain, requiring nearly twice the number of maintenance personnel as anticipated."

The plane takes about 3,000 people to maintain, the Air Force said. The service calculated that for every hour in the air, the F-22 spends 45 hours undergoing maintenance.

Two decades ago, the U.S. government planned to buy 648 of the fighters for $139 million apiece; the cost has almost tripled since then to $412 million, the Government Accountability Office said.

Recently retired Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates ended the purchase in 2009 at 188 planes, only a handful of which are still being built. The $273-million increase per plane translates to $51.3 billion in lost buying power for the F-22 program.

"The reality is we are fighting two wars, in Iraq and Afghanistan, and the F-22 has not performed a single mission in either theater," Gates told a congressional panel in 2008.

Air Force officials said the F-22 hasn't been used in conflicts because its technology wasn't needed. They added that all aircraft have problems that crop up, and that the F-22 is worth the high price tag because it is the "most advanced fighter aircraft, with unrivaled capabilities."

"The aircraft was designed for high-threat environments, not what we've seen in Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya," said Lt. Col. E. John Teichert, who until recently commanded the F-22 squadron at Edwards Air Force Base. "If the F-22 prevents a military engagement with another country, it is well worth the money."

Even though the F-22 has never been sent over a war zone, it has experienced seven major crashes with two casualties — one of which may have been linked to the oxygen malfunction.

Capt. Jeff Haney, 31, was killed in a F-22 after a crash in the Alaskan wilderness in November near Joint Base Elmendorf-Richardson. An ongoing Air Force investigation is examining the oxygen system as part of its probe.

The Air Force said the order in May to keep the planes grounded was caused by 14 instances since June 2008 in which pilots experienced sickness related to bad oxygen flow.

The Air Force said its investigation into the accident and oxygen problems "is currently scheduled to be completed and delivered to the secretary of the Air Force this coming fall."

The oxygen system problems have compelled the government to examine its forthcoming F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, which is also made by Lockheed. The F-35 is smaller than the F-22 and will be used jointly by the Navy, Marines and Air Force. The Pentagon plans to buy 2,457 F-35s.

John P. Jumper, a retired Air Force general, former Air Force chief of staff to President George W. Bush and fierce backer of the F-22 program, said the F-22 problems need to be resolved soon so the planes and pilots return to service.

"It's very troublesome," he said. "This is the sort of thing that deserves a thorough examination so it never can happen again."

Leo "Apollo11"

[USSAmerica]

Good morning - Tithe. [&o][&o][&o]

[USSAmerica]

Home from vacation and back to the grind.  At least tomorrow is already Friday.  [:)]

[jeffk3510]

Nice and overcast this morning. Good morning.

[DuckofTindalos]

The F-22 and the F-35 are both white elephants, just like the Osprey and Comanche.

[AW1Steve]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

The F-22 and the F-35 are both white elephants, just like the Osprey and Comanche.

As was the M-16 rifle, the M-1 tank, the B-29,the Harrier, the helicopter and damn near ANY new device that is either totally new technology or pushing the boundries. We should have stay safe with "The Brown Bess" musket or a cross bow. "Everybody knows" ....."that'll never fly", "work", "space is a waste"...., and of course the big one "why waste the money on something new?". Geeze Kristian....I thought I was supposed to be the geezer around here.[:(][X(]

[DuckofTindalos]

Not the point, Steve.

[Dixie]

ORIGINAL: Mynok


Well, it looks like Fabregas is gone. The road to the Premiership just got a lot steeper for the Gunners.

Well yes and no. On the one hand he's a great player, but seeing as he's usually injured for half a season his impact is diminished somewhat. Time to rebuild the team and move on, it'll either be the best thing that happened to Arsenal as they look for a new dynamic or they'll be alright, assuming they keep Nasri. He's not quite as good yet, but he's fit a lot more often.

[AW1Steve]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Not the point, Steve.

Ok, a couple of points. 1) they are to both replace planes that have either been retired (Like the Sea harrier) or should have been. The F-22 was to replace the F-15. Which I might remind you was brought into service when Richard Nixon was president! They are very,very old. And while you might get away with it with a C-130 or a B-52, neither of those air frames are expected to do high-gee manevers. I can tell you from 1st hand experince, it's not reassuring to see a order come down "to restrict manuevering till the aircraft has been inspected " (because the $%%^^& wings might come off!).

2) virtually everyone has newer fighter aircraft. The UK, France, Europe, Sweden, Russia and China. The F-15's a great bird, but ......

3) These planes are in the pipeline NOW. To "skip a generation" means they won't be replaced for 15 to 20 years.

4) A number of USA allies are counting on these planes (the F-35). The verticle lift model is the ONLY thing out there that can replace the Harrier.


I don't know if you've seen the F-22 put through it's paces at an airshow, but the 1st time I watched it, I stood there like a "slack jawed idiot" watching that plane do things that I could not belive a fighter could do. I've not seen the F-35 yet , my my friends at Pax River tell me it's equally mind blowing. And about the V-22 Osprey , I've talked to Marines that can't say enough good things about the bird. NOTHING remotely comes close in range,speed ,or any other aspect of performance. Again, if you ever see thins aircraft perform at an airshow, I think you might rethink your "White Elephant" comment.


High or over priced? I have no doubt. But not because of the aircraft, but our stupid, broken procurement process is the culprit.Not the aircraft themselves.

Don't forget , even the B-17 was seen as "over priced" as we could get two B-18 Digbys for the same price! [:D]

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: Terminus

The F-22 and the F-35 are both white elephants, just like the Osprey and Comanche.

The V-22 Osprey is useful beast but RAH-66 Comanche was never build (there were just prototypes)...


Leo "Apollo11"

[Nikademus]

"White Elephant" usually conotates IMO....a lack of purpose to match the object in question. Like say HIJMS Yamato. Biggest, most powerful battleship built.......imagining what it's 3300lb shells could do to a warship would invite slack jaw responses (as long as there are no killer GP bombs that cause an unstoppable magazine explosion! [:'(] )

But it was labeled a WE because it was built for a role that was no longer relevent. Perhaps that's what El Groucho meant. [:D] F-22 is an awesome device, but very expensive and as the article has stated....its never fought a conflict of which we've had at least a couple recently. So is it really needed? We can't go to war with China because all they have to do is send us a collection notice for our debt.

I have to wonder how much longer we can sustain the huge military budget we have. I might be mistaken but i think we spend more of our economy on defense than even the mentioned Chinese.