The PERFECT WAR Mod

[DOCUP]

Some nice ideas and thoughts here.  Beppis idea of haveing factorys to give extra AC is nice.  I think it was Nemo who said to have a cpl factorys on islands, where the Allies can recieve AC.  But they have to send in supplies to fix the damage and then so much to keep it up and running.  This would decrease the amount of Allied supply and transports.  I don't know if it can be done with the game engine but nice idea.

What about starting an Allied thread for this mod so you guys can focus on the Japaneese side without being side tracked with all of us AFBs popping in.  Then you guys can come over and see what nasty ideas we have for the Empire. 

I read somewhere on this thread about SMGs for the Japaneese. They weren't hard to make. The Germans made the MP 40, UK sten gun, US the grease gun. They were all cheap easy to make. Low caliber but good for sending lots of lead down range and to keep your opponents head down.

Looking at it they did have an SMG type 100 it had 2 versions. There was three but one didn't sound like it would be worth considering. The other was the Type II. Type II could of been used fromt he get go I think. The 100 prob could of came a little earlier than 42.


doc

[John 3rd]

DOCUP--That is a capital idea on starting a 2nd Thread. Wouldn't be near as confusing and we can bounce back-and-forth. Does this idea have merit?

JWE: I've gotten a few PMs about whether we would start with Da Babes as the baseline scenario prior to changing and making the new Mod. What are you/your design team's opinions to this query?

[John 3rd]

I am starting a companion Thread so that everyone can get their thoughts out and we can separate the Japanese and Allied topics. Thank you DOCUP!

[oldman45]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Sorry OldMan if that was a little strong. There are so many ideas circulating right now for Japan that it is difficult to keep up with them and try to imagine their impact.

No worries pal, love the work you all are doing and how this thread is chugging along.

[John 3rd]

ORIGINAL: oldman45

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Sorry OldMan if that was a little strong. There are so many ideas circulating right now for Japan that it is difficult to keep up with them and try to imagine their impact.

No worries pal, love the work you all are doing and how this thread is chugging along.

Thanks for saying so. Was really concerned I'd offended you!

On the subject of your ideas regarding the Allies, please Post onto the new thread. I think there are a TON of them that hold serious merit.

In this area, I am, at the moment, trying to write a historical outline combining what we've discussed here to see how it reads and provoke more thinking as to our direction, timeline, and focus.

[JWE]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd
JWE: I've gotten a few PMs about whether we would start with Da Babes as the baseline scenario prior to changing and making the new Mod. What are you/your design team's opinions to this query?

Don't see why not. Lots of people playing Babes, and everything seems to be working as intended. If you want to use Babes as a base, be glad to help out and explain anything that needs 'splainin.

J

[FatR]

So, on leadership: theoretically, what is most likely to be able to push necessary decisions is not a single man, but a de-facto junta led by politically savvy Army/Navy officers with connections to both leading military thinkers and industry and supported by Emperor Hirohito. It might be initially formed in an attempt to overcome the impact of the Great Depression, both on the Army/Navy (by trying to achieve a unified solution to armament production) and on Japanese economy - meaning primarily their zaibatsu buddies (by trying to snatch resources and markets in Manchuria, as IRL). Of course, they still will be forced to ride the wave of Japanese militarism and nationalism, particularly as they will need to overcome much resistance among senior officers of both services just to establish some Army-Navy cooperation, and will end up hostages to it, unable to back off in the right moment, when the confrontation with the West still can be avoided.

As about what to build up, I think, until the war begins in earnest, Japan should primarily concentrate on developing heavy industry and civilian infrastructure, with military spending being about the same as IRL. IRL Japan heavily invested into developing Manchuria (which was one of the key reasons, why admitting defeat in China, thus letting the victorious enemy on Manchukuo doorstep, much less agreeing to abandon the Chinese territory entirely, was seen as unacceptable), even establishing aircraft production there, in this alternative, the same will be done, except Japanese will have more time to do it, under somewhat better direction. From 1939, when the open war in China finally breaks out (because KMT generals pressure Chiang into doing something about the foreigners that snatched 1/4th of the country and instigate chaos across the rest, or because hawks in Tokyo see Europe' slide into war as an opportunity to do as Japan pleases with China, or because of some combination of these two factors), funding naturally shifts to expanding weapon production. In late 1940, Japan decides to throw its lot with Germany and to go to war against the old colonial powers (plus, inevitably, USA; actually, the fear of of USA military buildup and perspectives of having the same coalition dictate terms to Japan, after Americans get involved in the war in Europe and win it, will be an important factor here), from this point economy starts converting into total war mode, and emergency fleet expansion begins. Before that point we're mostly talking about benefitting from more lenient treaties, and most of the new costruction or wide-scale modernizations are done at the expense of other ships, that existed IRL.

As a side note, I find rather hard to believe that indiscriminate drafts, as described by JWE above, wouldn't undermine production entirely. Like the persistent myth about especially poor living conditions on IJN ships, this might be a projection of realities of the war's final year (manpower for many new divisions raised in late 1944-45 had to come from somewhere, after all) on Japanese practices in general.

[FatR]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

DOCUP--That is a capital idea on starting a 2nd Thread. Wouldn't be near as confusing and we can bounce back-and-forth. Does this idea have merit?

JWE: I've gotten a few PMs about whether we would start with Da Babes as the baseline scenario prior to changing and making the new Mod. What are you/your design team's opinions to this query?

Although this isn't adressed to me, I won't mind using Da Babes (BTW, which version people requested to use, Lite or Big?), as long as I'm not forced to rewrite its device list to adopt it for mod's purposes for the third time (beyond general mod-related tweaking, I still feel that stats for certain weapons, like pom-poms, Soviet 41-K, and WWI-era Allied land-based flak guns are quite excessive; while aircraft guns above 20-23mm are understatted, making a number of planes worthless). Let's just take the Babes-based device list from RA (adding new guns as necessary for the mod).

[John 3rd]

You've done a bunch of Postings this morning Stanislav! As I have been perusing the records of the Thread here are the big dates/events we've chosen to incorporate into our timeline:

A. 1904-1906 Russo-Japanese War---The Imperial Fleet realizes how near of a thing the war was. The real lessons taken from the experience is that any war will be longer (1.5-2 years), be attritional, and require different planning.

B. World War One: Several officers who serve with the ASW Detachment in the Med realize that Japan MUST prepare for some sort of commerce war if she goes to war against a major power. This small faction agitates for better ASW Research, resources, and vessels. They also advocate for a Coastal Command HQ to coordinate a national response when needed.

C. Washington Treaty allows for the Japanese to build-up to 3.5 instead of 3.0.

D. London Treaty does the same thing in 1930.

E. Manchuria is invaded but the Japanese Army is reigned in and the occupation is much more peaceful. A concerted Japanese economic investment takes place here and in Korea.

F. The Army Mutiny, spoken of on the previous page, is RUTHLESSLY put down and the middle grade of the Army Officers are forced to sit back instead of assassinate at will. A much stronger Privy Council takes hold that prepares for war as well as forces the Army and Navy to somewhat better cooperate.

G. In 1939 open war breaks out in China as the Chinese Warlords will no longer be cowed. The army deploys into the region and massed fighting takes place. Once again, the progressive elements of the Japanese Army work to make the 'peace' in China much more passive. There is no Nanking...

H. As war breaks out in Europe a large set of 'observers' travel to the region and absorb 'lessons' from what they see. For the Army and Navy this means: AIRPOWER. The ASW faction sees its fears realized with the German SS success against British Commerce. The Army...well...I am not really sure what they would see...

I. In 1940 the Japanese sense opportunity and throw themselves in with Germany and Italy.

The die is cast...

Did I miss anything? Thoughts?

[Herrbear]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

You've done a bunch of Postings this morning Stanislav! As I have been perusing the records of the Thread here are the big dates/events we've chosen to incorporate into our timeline:

A. 1904-1906 Russo-Japanese War---The Imperial Fleet realizes how near of a thing the war was. The real lessons taken from the experience is that any war will be longer (1.5-2 years), be attritional, and require different planning.

B. World War One: Several officers who serve with the ASW Detachment in the Med realize that Japan MUST prepare for some sort of commerce war if she goes to war against a major power. This small faction agitates for better ASW Research, resources, and vessels. They also advocate for a Coastal Command HQ to coordinate a national response when needed.

C. Washington Treaty allows for the Japanese to build-up to 3.5 instead of 3.0.

D. London Treaty does the same thing in 1930.

E. Manchuria is invaded but the Japanese Army is reigned in and the occupation is much more peaceful. A concerted Japanese economic investment takes place here and in Korea.

F. The Army Mutiny, spoken of on the previous page, is RUTHLESSLY put down and the middle grade of the Army Officers are forced to sit back instead of assassinate at will. A much stronger Privy Council takes hold that prepares for war as well as forces the Army and Navy to somewhat better cooperate.

G. In 1939 open war breaks out in China as the Chinese Warlords will no longer be cowed. The army deploys into the region and massed fighting takes place. Once again, the progressive elements of the Japanese Army work to make the 'peace' in China much more passive. There is no Nanking...

H. As war breaks out in Europe a large set of 'observers' travel to the region and absorb 'lessons' from what they see. For the Army and Navy this means: AIRPOWER. The ASW faction sees its fears realized with the German SS success against British Commerce. The Army...well...I am not really sure what they would see...

I. In 1940 the Japanese sense opportunity and throw themselves in with Germany and Italy.

The die is cast...

Did I miss anything? Thoughts?

Not that you have missed it, but just curious, regarding in building up the Mandated Islands. The agreement by Japan on 5:5:3 was accepted requiring the islands of the Pacific not being built up. In winning the 5:5:3.5 agreement is that corollary still in or are you looking at the ability of islands such as Guam, Carolines and so forth being able to be built up?

[FatR]

Mike scholl's post in the sister thread (and browsing other alternatives available on the net, I must admit) made me think that I might be overlooking Allied reaction on various Japanese shenanigans, primarily tonnage manipulations. More on that when we'll return to cruisers later.

So far, just checking in the destroyer proposal, modified for new 120/45 Type 90 and 120/55 Type 98 guns.

Modification of old DDs - as described previously, but 120/45 Type 90 replaces 127/40 Type 89. Otori-class TBs are not built.
Building of modern DDs until Hatsuharu - as RL.
6 Hatsuharus - modify as DDAA as decribed above. Unshielded mounts probably need to be used.
10 Shiratsuyus - 3x2 120/45 Type 90 in properly enclosed turrets, 2x4 610mm TTs. Size and design as RL.
10 Asashios - main armament is the same as on the previous class, the main differences are turret positioning and powerplant. Hull is smaller compared to RL, allowing to save materials and achieve greater speed (36-37 knots) with the same power.
20 Kageros - slighly bigger, main armament is the same, but the number of depth charges on board is slightly increased. The main differences, as IRL, are lighter engine and greater cruise speed. Savings achieved by building smaller ships start to tell here, allowing to build 2 more DDs (and probably even have extra materials and money left for other projects).
Yugumos - war emergency measures will start to kick in here, and design of these ships will be adjusted according to reports on the war in Europe from the start. They will be bigger and slower than Kageros, albeit smaller than RL Yugumos, and will carry a larger number of 25mm guns from the start (their depth charge load was improved already IRL). 3 will be available at the beginning of hostilities, and thereafter I think about 7 per year for 1942-44, owing to their smaller size, is not impossible.
Akizuki - a super-Yugumo with 3x2 new 120/55 guns. Between RL Akizuki and Yugumo classes in size, and, like RL Akizuki, still using the same powerplant as Yugumo. Between being smaller, being more similar to Yugumos and not building extremely expensive Shimakaze, building at least 16 of these, with the first available in autumn of 1942, is not a stretch, I think.
Matsu - I'm actually not very fond of this ship, for the reasons I'm not very fond of the opposite side of Japanese DD spectrum, RL Akizuki - in a desperate war they too will be used exactly as normal DDs, except if RL Akizukis were too expensive to lose, RL Matsus were too easy to lose - IIRC 3 out of 7 lost DDs of this class were destroyed in surface actions, for which they were poorly suited (Take managed to sink an american DD in return, though). While building an emergency design like this is probably inevitable, I'd propose making them slightly bigger, to house at least 2x2 120/45 Type 89 guns.
APDs - a dozen of faster named APDs, as described by mikemike above in 1941-42, with 3-4 available at the beginning, start building Type 1 from late 1942, with avalability in 1943.

I'm yet undecided where the main investment should be made during the war, that's why I'm not posted numbers on Matsus and only APD building really takes into account the postulated industry boost.

[FatR]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd
B. World War One: Several officers who serve with the ASW Detachment in the Med realize that Japan MUST prepare for some sort of commerce war if she goes to war against a major power. This small faction agitates for better ASW Research, resources, and vessels. They also advocate for a Coastal Command HQ to coordinate a national response when needed.

Unfortunately for Japanese, geography sort of screws them here - no suitable or easy to capture bases to wage sustained submarine warfare against any of the really vital enemy trade routes. Well, in case of reaching their RL perimeter they will be able to reach into some of them in the Indian Ocean, but at that stage overrunning everything up to India is a pipe dream.

They plausibly can sound the alarms about the paramount importance of protecting one's own trade routes for an island nation, eventually leading to extensive conversions of old DDs for escort purposes and earlier order of dedicated Es, as I've outlined above.

ORIGINAL: John 3rdH. As war breaks out in Europe a large set of 'observers' travel to the region and absorb 'lessons' from what they see. For the Army and Navy this means: AIRPOWER. The ASW faction sees its fears realized with the German SS success against British Commerce. The Army...well...I am not really sure what they would see...

Army (ground component), primarily needs industrial muscle to make new weapons appear on the frontlines in any significant numbers... Straightforward copying of usual early-war German designs is unhelpful here. They will of course try to absorb and copy German experience of mechanized warfare, as happened IRL (leading to creation of Japanese tank divisions), but difference in circumstances will make its usefulness limited.

[JWE]

I would be very judicious about any technology transfers from Germany. Germany wouldn't do it in the first instance, and the Japanese doctrine was so vastly different that technology transfer would be non compos mentos. What you want to avoid is IJA SS Panzer Armies scouring the map. There wasn't much beyond electronics that Germany could offer, anyway. And even electronics she held close to the chest.

So, Metox, cool. Japan had a cavity magnetron way before Germany (or anybody else, for that matter), so what's the point in German radar technology? Perhaps German operational use would open some eyes, but not German radar technology in 1941. So forget tech transfer of uber, ober Nazi radar; it wasn't.

Aircraft engine technology was about the same, and I dare say Japan's was better, for radials. Germany perhaps had better fairing tech and aerodynamic modelling, but engines ? No! Airframes? No! Japan just didn't have the facilities to crack enough of the really high octane additives to make things go faster. So forget tech transfer of uber, ober Nazi airplanes; they weren't.

As to subs, everybody knew that wall thickness equated to diving depth. And everybody know about the moduli of T and S grade steel. Japanese ship designers weren't stupid. Japan had a bunch of german War-I boats to evaluate and decided .. nah .. not what we want for our purposes. So forget tech transfer of uber, ober Nazi sub tech; it wasn't.

Could go on and on, but this uber, ober, Nazi technology, wasn't. So please, oh please, don't go there.

[Terminus]

If Japan sends observers to Europe on the outbreak of war, it'll be too late to change anything. As "FatR" points out, it's the industrial base that's the issue; Japan had a pitiful military industrial complex, and no realistic way of developing one without more raw materials which could not be gained without warfare.

[Terminus]

Historically, the German influence on Japan’s submarine force waned in the second half the 20’s, as IJN senior leadership drifted firmly into the shoals of the “Decisive Battle” doctrine, in which submarines would function as an integrated part of the battle fleet. By 1930, the last of the Germans had returned home. In my alternate history, however, things turned out differently.

In May 1922, a German called Reinhardt Fischer debarked from a steamship in Yokohama. During The Great War, he had been a U-boat commander in the Atlantic, winning some renown for a number of audacious attacks, and was an almost fanatical believer in the independent use of submarines as weapons of war. Finding Japan to his liking, Fischer assimilated rapidly, learning the Japanese language, and making a number of close connections among junior and middle-ranking IJN officers.

The charismatic and outspoken Fischer played a significant part in planting the seeds of an independent Japanese submarine arm, and by the time he died of a heart attack in the winter of 1929-30, the process was well underway.

The biggest difference between the traditionalist viewpoint of submarine operations, where the boats were part of the battle fleet, and the new independent submarine doctrine was the concept of control.

Under the control of the battle fleet, the submarines were meant to be essentially static torpedo batteries, deployed in strict patrol lines to wait for the enemy fleet to basically sail right over them. Each patrol line would be assigned a strict map position, and controlled by a flagship boat, thus requiring the individual submarines to come to the surface often in order to receive commands. This, combined with their lack of authority for independent movement or action, would doom the IJN submarine arm to playing fourth fiddle in the orchestra.

Under the Fischer scheme, individual submarines would be assigned larger patrol sectors on the map for independent operations. It was recognized that the idea of central control would be almost impossible to implement effectively, not to mention counter-productive, and potentially deadly to the flagship boats. Furthermore, it would be beaten into the heads of IJN submarine captains that there was no such thing as an “unworthy target”; their boats would be commerce raiders, attack the enemy fleet train, everything they could put in front of their torpedo tubes.

“Every enemy vessel, from the mightiest battleship to the smallest coastal steamer, supports his war machine and is a target that you must pursue with utmost aggressiveness. The only way you can fail the Emperor is by not pressing your attack home with all might. This is the way for Japan to win.”

Commander Koizo Nakamura,
senior lecturer at the Kure submarine school, to his students

The above is a quote from a little paper I wrote for my own amusement on the issue of submarine warfare in our game. The point is turning the brains of the IJN away from seeing the submarine as a fleet weapon. On the materiél side, it has the IJN turning away from the giant fleet boats in 1935 and building medium-sized boats instead for use from forward bases. The subs also shift from the control of the numbered fleets to a single HQ.

[Footslogger]

TERMY!! TOE

[John 3rd]

ORIGINAL: Herrbear

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

You've done a bunch of Postings this morning Stanislav! As I have been perusing the records of the Thread here are the big dates/events we've chosen to incorporate into our timeline:

A. 1904-1906 Russo-Japanese War---The Imperial Fleet realizes how near of a thing the war was. The real lessons taken from the experience is that any war will be longer (1.5-2 years), be attritional, and require different planning.

B. World War One: Several officers who serve with the ASW Detachment in the Med realize that Japan MUST prepare for some sort of commerce war if she goes to war against a major power. This small faction agitates for better ASW Research, resources, and vessels. They also advocate for a Coastal Command HQ to coordinate a national response when needed.

C. Washington Treaty allows for the Japanese to build-up to 3.5 instead of 3.0.

D. London Treaty does the same thing in 1930.

E. Manchuria is invaded but the Japanese Army is reigned in and the occupation is much more peaceful. A concerted Japanese economic investment takes place here and in Korea.

F. The Army Mutiny, spoken of on the previous page, is RUTHLESSLY put down and the middle grade of the Army Officers are forced to sit back instead of assassinate at will. A much stronger Privy Council takes hold that prepares for war as well as forces the Army and Navy to somewhat better cooperate.

G. In 1939 open war breaks out in China as the Chinese Warlords will no longer be cowed. The army deploys into the region and massed fighting takes place. Once again, the progressive elements of the Japanese Army work to make the 'peace' in China much more passive. There is no Nanking...

H. As war breaks out in Europe a large set of 'observers' travel to the region and absorb 'lessons' from what they see. For the Army and Navy this means: AIRPOWER. The ASW faction sees its fears realized with the German SS success against British Commerce. The Army...well...I am not really sure what they would see...

I. In 1940 the Japanese sense opportunity and throw themselves in with Germany and Italy.

The die is cast...

Did I miss anything? Thoughts?

Not that you have missed it, but just curious, regarding in building up the Mandated Islands. The agreement by Japan on 5:5:3 was accepted requiring the islands of the Pacific not being built up. In winning the 5:5:3.5 agreement is that corollary still in or are you looking at the ability of islands such as Guam, Carolines and so forth being able to be built up?

That is an excellent possibility. Just commented about that in the other Thread.

[John 3rd]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Historically, the German influence on Japan’s submarine force waned in the second half the 20’s, as IJN senior leadership drifted firmly into the shoals of the “Decisive Battle” doctrine, in which submarines would function as an integrated part of the battle fleet. By 1930, the last of the Germans had returned home. In my alternate history, however, things turned out differently.

In May 1922, a German called Reinhardt Fischer debarked from a steamship in Yokohama. During The Great War, he had been a U-boat commander in the Atlantic, winning some renown for a number of audacious attacks, and was an almost fanatical believer in the independent use of submarines as weapons of war. Finding Japan to his liking, Fischer assimilated rapidly, learning the Japanese language, and making a number of close connections among junior and middle-ranking IJN officers.

The charismatic and outspoken Fischer played a significant part in planting the seeds of an independent Japanese submarine arm, and by the time he died of a heart attack in the winter of 1929-30, the process was well underway.

The biggest difference between the traditionalist viewpoint of submarine operations, where the boats were part of the battle fleet, and the new independent submarine doctrine was the concept of control.

Under the control of the battle fleet, the submarines were meant to be essentially static torpedo batteries, deployed in strict patrol lines to wait for the enemy fleet to basically sail right over them. Each patrol line would be assigned a strict map position, and controlled by a flagship boat, thus requiring the individual submarines to come to the surface often in order to receive commands. This, combined with their lack of authority for independent movement or action, would doom the IJN submarine arm to playing fourth fiddle in the orchestra.

Under the Fischer scheme, individual submarines would be assigned larger patrol sectors on the map for independent operations. It was recognized that the idea of central control would be almost impossible to implement effectively, not to mention counter-productive, and potentially deadly to the flagship boats. Furthermore, it would be beaten into the heads of IJN submarine captains that there was no such thing as an “unworthy target”; their boats would be commerce raiders, attack the enemy fleet train, everything they could put in front of their torpedo tubes.

“Every enemy vessel, from the mightiest battleship to the smallest coastal steamer, supports his war machine and is a target that you must pursue with utmost aggressiveness. The only way you can fail the Emperor is by not pressing your attack home with all might. This is the way for Japan to win.”

Commander Koizo Nakamura,
senior lecturer at the Kure submarine school, to his students

The above is a quote from a little paper I wrote for my own amusement on the issue of submarine warfare in our game. The point is turning the brains of the IJN away from seeing the submarine as a fleet weapon. On the materiél side, it has the IJN turning away from the giant fleet boats in 1935 and building medium-sized boats instead for use from forward bases. The subs also shift from the control of the numbered fleets to a single HQ.

Excellent. This is the direction I think we are headed for with the IJN SS. We allow the building of the 'normal' Japanese SS until Circle Three (1934) and then move in a new direction with a capable medium-sized SS. Cheaper, more of them, and they might be darned effective until Allied ASW becomes too effective in 1943 and later.

The new direction concurs with what we are talking about with slapping the IJA around some and allowing for a 'new vision' to take over. I wish I could find something written by Yamamoto regarding SS. He still adhered to the 'Decisive Battle' so I doubt if it would provide much ammunition but would love to see his thoughts.

[John 3rd]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd
B. World War One: Several officers who serve with the ASW Detachment in the Med realize that Japan MUST prepare for some sort of commerce war if she goes to war against a major power. This small faction agitates for better ASW Research, resources, and vessels. They also advocate for a Coastal Command HQ to coordinate a national response when needed.

Unfortunately for Japanese, geography sort of screws them here - no suitable or easy to capture bases to wage sustained submarine warfare against any of the really vital enemy trade routes. Well, in case of reaching their RL perimeter they will be able to reach into some of them in the Indian Ocean, but at that stage overrunning everything up to India is a pipe dream.

They plausibly can sound the alarms about the paramount importance of protecting one's own trade routes for an island nation, eventually leading to extensive conversions of old DDs for escort purposes and earlier order of dedicated Es, as I've outlined above.

I meant this to mean the Japanese would prepare to fight AGAINST a commerce war. We'd see the 36+ Escorts you described built before the war, creation of a Coastal Command as soon as war begins, and then the creation of dedicated ASW Ships to fight the war starting in late-42.

[Terminus]

I think an Escort Command HQ should be created before war breaks out and spend a few years training alongside the submariners.