Return to Smolensk and Beyond, IdahoNY vs Scar
Moderators: Joel Billings, Sabre21
RE: Crisis continues
I think your doing very well.
RE: Crisis continues
AGC and AG "B" areas.
The green shaded area is the area of the front where General Mud has shown up - which should put a stiff break on where the Soviets chose to attack..
AGC:
3rd Pz Armee is a panzer armee in name only at this point. A quiet sector of the front since the attack on Moscow was abandoned in mid '42, I've stripped all the panzers from the army and sent them north - as well as most of the infantry reserves. So far, despite its proximity to Moscow, recon has detected no sign of any Soviet offense in this area.
4th Army's front is also a "quiet sector", which never really had much combat power to "strip".
2nd Army border's the former 2nd Pz Armee's area, and will encompass most of 2nd Pz Armee's formations now that 2nd Pz HQ has been withdrawn. 2nd Army's position is fairly strong, mostly infantry in fortifications, and backed up by the "Bryansk Line" about 50 miles to the rear. Despite continued Soviet attacks to seize Orel, Orel still is in German hands
AG B
6th Army continues to be pressured by Soviet attacks, but still retains Kursk and contains sufficient infantry and panzers to hold off all but the most determined Soviet attacks.
4th Pz Armee lost a few divisions to the crisis in the north, including Totenkopf, but still occupies good fortifications and holds the approaches to Belgorod and Kharkov.
2nd Hun Army supports 4th Pz Armee's positions around Kharkov, but does not currently hold a portion of the front.
Overall, AG B's position remains the strongest portion of the German line in Russia. Except for 2nd Army's right flank, AGC is extremely weak, with many of its best formations pulled up north to AGN.
With the mud, and hopefully it will last, I expect a lull to come over the front. I'll attempt to pull panzers off the line and into reserve positions and await the Soviet Winter offensive - which I bet will be aimed at securing Kharkov, Orel and Kursk.....only because that has been his focus the entire summer of 43.
The green shaded area is the area of the front where General Mud has shown up - which should put a stiff break on where the Soviets chose to attack..
AGC:
3rd Pz Armee is a panzer armee in name only at this point. A quiet sector of the front since the attack on Moscow was abandoned in mid '42, I've stripped all the panzers from the army and sent them north - as well as most of the infantry reserves. So far, despite its proximity to Moscow, recon has detected no sign of any Soviet offense in this area.
4th Army's front is also a "quiet sector", which never really had much combat power to "strip".
2nd Army border's the former 2nd Pz Armee's area, and will encompass most of 2nd Pz Armee's formations now that 2nd Pz HQ has been withdrawn. 2nd Army's position is fairly strong, mostly infantry in fortifications, and backed up by the "Bryansk Line" about 50 miles to the rear. Despite continued Soviet attacks to seize Orel, Orel still is in German hands
AG B
6th Army continues to be pressured by Soviet attacks, but still retains Kursk and contains sufficient infantry and panzers to hold off all but the most determined Soviet attacks.
4th Pz Armee lost a few divisions to the crisis in the north, including Totenkopf, but still occupies good fortifications and holds the approaches to Belgorod and Kharkov.
2nd Hun Army supports 4th Pz Armee's positions around Kharkov, but does not currently hold a portion of the front.
Overall, AG B's position remains the strongest portion of the German line in Russia. Except for 2nd Army's right flank, AGC is extremely weak, with many of its best formations pulled up north to AGN.
With the mud, and hopefully it will last, I expect a lull to come over the front. I'll attempt to pull panzers off the line and into reserve positions and await the Soviet Winter offensive - which I bet will be aimed at securing Kharkov, Orel and Kursk.....only because that has been his focus the entire summer of 43.
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RE: Crisis continues
Thanks Ketza - I've enjoyed the summer of 43 "operations". Trying to hold off the horde has been fun.
RE: Crisis continues
AG A to the Crimea has been exceptionally quiet.
17th Army has been reinforced by a PzKps on loan from 1st Pz Armee - thought the Soviets were going to broaden their attack towards Kharkov. Didn't happen, but I haven't pulled the PzKps back to 1st Pz Armee either. GD has been sent north however.
1st Pz Armee's position isn't exactly strong, but hasn't had any pressure against it either. XXXXI PzKps lost a Pz Div to the Crimea, which instead of returning, was sent to AGN.
However, 1st Pz Armee is backed up by the "Eastern Rampart" - level 3 forts along the Dneiper and down to the Sea of Azov. So far a major waste of manpower......but this is where I "thought" he'd attack during the summer....
The Crimea has been ably defended by the 4th Rum Army. So far, we've repulsed two amphib assaults and a number of attacks across the Kerch Strait. AND only 3x German IN Divs in support.
Overally, I hope this area of the front remains quiet - although I can't really afford to pull any additional forces from here.
So we wait for the next Soviet onslaught!
17th Army has been reinforced by a PzKps on loan from 1st Pz Armee - thought the Soviets were going to broaden their attack towards Kharkov. Didn't happen, but I haven't pulled the PzKps back to 1st Pz Armee either. GD has been sent north however.
1st Pz Armee's position isn't exactly strong, but hasn't had any pressure against it either. XXXXI PzKps lost a Pz Div to the Crimea, which instead of returning, was sent to AGN.
However, 1st Pz Armee is backed up by the "Eastern Rampart" - level 3 forts along the Dneiper and down to the Sea of Azov. So far a major waste of manpower......but this is where I "thought" he'd attack during the summer....
The Crimea has been ably defended by the 4th Rum Army. So far, we've repulsed two amphib assaults and a number of attacks across the Kerch Strait. AND only 3x German IN Divs in support.
Overally, I hope this area of the front remains quiet - although I can't really afford to pull any additional forces from here.
So we wait for the next Soviet onslaught!
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The front line
And last, the front line on Sep 16, 1943
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RE: The front line
You definitely need to pull back from Moscow to Lake Ilmen.
"Measure civilization by the ability of citizens to mock government with impunity" -- Unknown
RE: The front line
Turn 121; Oct 7, 1943....clear
Back from vacation and on with the game!
Since the mud on turn 118, the Soviets have ceased operations along the main front, from Leningrad to the Sea of Azov. Despite, clear weather since! Very surprised at this turn of events, but greatly relieved as well.
Not only has he ceased offensive operations, but he has pulled his attacking forces off the line - air recon has picked up concentrations near Tula, Voronezh, and Kursk, but all along rail lines, well behind the front - moving elsewhere, or refitting is the question...
In any case, I welcome the respite as he could have pushed harder with the remaining clear weather. But, his forces were probably a bit worn down as well, and he's prepping for the winter offensive season.
I don't expect much once the mud hits - any turn now..... That should offer some respite and additional digging time for fallback positions.
Back from vacation and on with the game!
Since the mud on turn 118, the Soviets have ceased operations along the main front, from Leningrad to the Sea of Azov. Despite, clear weather since! Very surprised at this turn of events, but greatly relieved as well.
Not only has he ceased offensive operations, but he has pulled his attacking forces off the line - air recon has picked up concentrations near Tula, Voronezh, and Kursk, but all along rail lines, well behind the front - moving elsewhere, or refitting is the question...
In any case, I welcome the respite as he could have pushed harder with the remaining clear weather. But, his forces were probably a bit worn down as well, and he's prepping for the winter offensive season.
I don't expect much once the mud hits - any turn now..... That should offer some respite and additional digging time for fallback positions.
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RE: The front line
The only area that Scar has kept the pressure on, is of course, where I didn't think he would...
Against the Finnish Kannas Army east of Lake Ladoga. Heavy pressure by Rifle Corps force me to abandon the Syamoero River Line to prevent those troops from potential isolation.
I need mud here to allow the fortifications to gain some progress.
The one thing I have learned from fighting these damn Rifle Corps stacks is that if he wants it bad enough, he can't be stopped. Delayed, maybe...but not stopped. Which brings up a very dangerous threat here if he continues to attack hard and turn the north side of Lake Ladoga - he could very well threaten Leningrad from the north!!
That would be ugly, very ugly....
Against the Finnish Kannas Army east of Lake Ladoga. Heavy pressure by Rifle Corps force me to abandon the Syamoero River Line to prevent those troops from potential isolation.
I need mud here to allow the fortifications to gain some progress.
The one thing I have learned from fighting these damn Rifle Corps stacks is that if he wants it bad enough, he can't be stopped. Delayed, maybe...but not stopped. Which brings up a very dangerous threat here if he continues to attack hard and turn the north side of Lake Ladoga - he could very well threaten Leningrad from the north!!
That would be ugly, very ugly....
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RE: The front line
Turn 127; Nov 18, 1943.....Snow in North and Central Sov, Mud in South Sov and Europe
Waiting for the Grand Soviet Winter Offensive Continues....
Front quiet....too quiet as they say. Air Recon has picked up a decrease in forces against AGN and the approaches to Leningrad which is surprising. Concentrations appear near Moscow - which could be clutter or an offensive aimed at 3rd Pz Ar. Also Soviet concentrations in the South Sov Zone against 17th Army.
For now, I'm standing pat where I'm at. At least until the Soviet Horde is unleashed. I'm reluctant to pull panzers out of AGN, where recon right now says will be quiet - if I do and I'm wrong, Leningrad as well as AGC's northern flank will be very vulnerable.
Waiting for the Grand Soviet Winter Offensive Continues....
Front quiet....too quiet as they say. Air Recon has picked up a decrease in forces against AGN and the approaches to Leningrad which is surprising. Concentrations appear near Moscow - which could be clutter or an offensive aimed at 3rd Pz Ar. Also Soviet concentrations in the South Sov Zone against 17th Army.
For now, I'm standing pat where I'm at. At least until the Soviet Horde is unleashed. I'm reluctant to pull panzers out of AGN, where recon right now says will be quiet - if I do and I'm wrong, Leningrad as well as AGC's northern flank will be very vulnerable.
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RE: The front line
You are in great shape so far in terms of territory, especially if you can keep him off the Dnepr until Spring. If he has to spend mid-1944 getting accross that, you'll be in even better shape!
If you are pressed, you can certainly afford to give ground between Lake Ilmen, and Bryansk. In fact, just retreating is preferable to being attacked. If you can stay off the Dnepr until Spring, you can concentrate forces on the Land Bridge, and hold him off at the River.
You are planning a 1944 fallback in the south along the Dnepr (nice job), but where is that in the north?
I think you have to plan a similar line along the Dnepr, through the critical landbridge area, then either along the Daugvina, or north through swampy/rough terrain to Lake Ilmen. Or both!
If you are pressed, you can certainly afford to give ground between Lake Ilmen, and Bryansk. In fact, just retreating is preferable to being attacked. If you can stay off the Dnepr until Spring, you can concentrate forces on the Land Bridge, and hold him off at the River.
You are planning a 1944 fallback in the south along the Dnepr (nice job), but where is that in the north?
I think you have to plan a similar line along the Dnepr, through the critical landbridge area, then either along the Daugvina, or north through swampy/rough terrain to Lake Ilmen. Or both!
RE: The front line
Turn 128; Nov 25, 1943.....Snow and Blizzard in North Soviet Zone
Right on the money with your observations Q-Ball. I've focused resources in the south building the "Eastern Rampart" along the Dniepr, but couldn't afford it north of Kiev. I expected to be fighting for the Dneipr Bend in late '42...didn't happen.
I'm slowly shifting resources north to continue the line and reinforce the land bridge. Will disband many of the fortified areas in the south to create new ones north. Have half a dozen or so divisions "digging", but its not enough.
If, and this was reaching at one point, but now, maybe in reach - is keeping the Soviet Horde east of the Dniepr till spring. Wow, never thought that would be possible, but, with the force ratio below, and the current front, it might just be do-able!
Right on the money with your observations Q-Ball. I've focused resources in the south building the "Eastern Rampart" along the Dniepr, but couldn't afford it north of Kiev. I expected to be fighting for the Dneipr Bend in late '42...didn't happen.
I'm slowly shifting resources north to continue the line and reinforce the land bridge. Will disband many of the fortified areas in the south to create new ones north. Have half a dozen or so divisions "digging", but its not enough.
If, and this was reaching at one point, but now, maybe in reach - is keeping the Soviet Horde east of the Dniepr till spring. Wow, never thought that would be possible, but, with the force ratio below, and the current front, it might just be do-able!
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RE: The front line
And the Soviet Storm breaks! (Screen shot before German response) Not the massive across the front blow I had expected, but more of a gathering storm perhaps.
3rd Pz Armee is the victim of the attack. On the plus side, the front here has been stagnant since the blizzard of '41-42 and there are some good fortifications in depth. On the negative side, 3rd Pz was stripped bare by AGN to stem the attacks toward Leningrad and Valdai Hills. Not a single panzer, other than a few StGs and Marders are in the "Panzer Armee". The reserves are nil - just city garrisons. 9th Army to its north isn't engaged, but can't offer much help either - one infantry Div and Mot Bde as reserves. 4th Army to the south can pull perhaps one or two infantry divisions, but no panzers either.
The intial Soviet blows pound through the defenses, taking heavy losses. While they achieve some penetrations, they fail to cleanly break through. Two Tank Corps push forward from the battering ram of the infantry corps, gaining about 20 miles.
It could have been alot worse had he started with a true "massed attack" instead of an attack aimed really at one German Korps.
While the storm breaks here against 3rd Pz Armee, recon still shows the heaviest concentration against AGS - from Kharkov south. Another worrisome concentration is against the northern corps of 9th Army - perhaps an intended pocket to trap 9th and 3rd Pz Armee?
Regardless, until the full storm develops, I'm reluctant to pull forces from other parts of the front - even so, 3rd Pz Armee needs some help. 2xIN Divs entering as reinforcements will rail to 3rd Pz immediately. XL PzKps will pull out of 2nd Army's line near Orel (taking risk here, but need to move some panzers in from the south). Soviet Partisans managed to tear up the primary rail lines from the Orel area north, so the XL PzKps will march. XXXXVII PzKps will pull out of the 16th Army's line east of the Valdai Hills from the north.
Overall, 3rd Pz Armee will conduct a fighting withdrawal west until the Soviets pry them from the front line fortifications - level 4 and 5 in some places. This should cost the Soviets dearly. Once cleared of fortifications, well delay a bit more rapidly west - attempting to hold Rzhev and Vyazma, but that might be tough. Depends on how much follow through the Soviets want to commit here. I can't stop the infantry corps (can anything??), but the two PzKps should be able to limit any exploitation and give a bloody nose if he pushes too far, too fast.
The Main Offensive will be in the south.....must be ready in the south.......
3rd Pz Armee is the victim of the attack. On the plus side, the front here has been stagnant since the blizzard of '41-42 and there are some good fortifications in depth. On the negative side, 3rd Pz was stripped bare by AGN to stem the attacks toward Leningrad and Valdai Hills. Not a single panzer, other than a few StGs and Marders are in the "Panzer Armee". The reserves are nil - just city garrisons. 9th Army to its north isn't engaged, but can't offer much help either - one infantry Div and Mot Bde as reserves. 4th Army to the south can pull perhaps one or two infantry divisions, but no panzers either.
The intial Soviet blows pound through the defenses, taking heavy losses. While they achieve some penetrations, they fail to cleanly break through. Two Tank Corps push forward from the battering ram of the infantry corps, gaining about 20 miles.
It could have been alot worse had he started with a true "massed attack" instead of an attack aimed really at one German Korps.
While the storm breaks here against 3rd Pz Armee, recon still shows the heaviest concentration against AGS - from Kharkov south. Another worrisome concentration is against the northern corps of 9th Army - perhaps an intended pocket to trap 9th and 3rd Pz Armee?
Regardless, until the full storm develops, I'm reluctant to pull forces from other parts of the front - even so, 3rd Pz Armee needs some help. 2xIN Divs entering as reinforcements will rail to 3rd Pz immediately. XL PzKps will pull out of 2nd Army's line near Orel (taking risk here, but need to move some panzers in from the south). Soviet Partisans managed to tear up the primary rail lines from the Orel area north, so the XL PzKps will march. XXXXVII PzKps will pull out of the 16th Army's line east of the Valdai Hills from the north.
Overall, 3rd Pz Armee will conduct a fighting withdrawal west until the Soviets pry them from the front line fortifications - level 4 and 5 in some places. This should cost the Soviets dearly. Once cleared of fortifications, well delay a bit more rapidly west - attempting to hold Rzhev and Vyazma, but that might be tough. Depends on how much follow through the Soviets want to commit here. I can't stop the infantry corps (can anything??), but the two PzKps should be able to limit any exploitation and give a bloody nose if he pushes too far, too fast.
The Main Offensive will be in the south.....must be ready in the south.......
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RE: The front line
Screen shot after the German moves.
Neither PzKps can move to effect the immediate Soviet attacks. XXXXVII PzKps (2xPz,2xPG) concentrates near Rzhev, with most of the PzKps moving by rail. XL PzKps (2xPz, PG), marched north from Orel, with many Panther Ds breaking down enroute. 20 PG occupies Kaluga to allow 4th Army infantry to shift north. A temporary solution....XL PzKps may have it's hands full if the Soviets push hard toward Vyazma.
To deal with the immediate threat, 3rd Pz Armee pushes two newly recieved SS Grenadier Divisions (of poor quality) into the line, an infantry Div and a Mot Bde from 9th Army, and 4th Army shifts north about 20 miles. No ability to counterattack with that!
However, all is not lost...one Tank Corp is isolated by maneuver, and for the most part, the line remains fortified. This should force the Soviets into another turn of battering fortifications rather than running rampant in the German rear - at least in 3rd Pz Armee's area.
The question is, where else will the storm break?
Neither PzKps can move to effect the immediate Soviet attacks. XXXXVII PzKps (2xPz,2xPG) concentrates near Rzhev, with most of the PzKps moving by rail. XL PzKps (2xPz, PG), marched north from Orel, with many Panther Ds breaking down enroute. 20 PG occupies Kaluga to allow 4th Army infantry to shift north. A temporary solution....XL PzKps may have it's hands full if the Soviets push hard toward Vyazma.
To deal with the immediate threat, 3rd Pz Armee pushes two newly recieved SS Grenadier Divisions (of poor quality) into the line, an infantry Div and a Mot Bde from 9th Army, and 4th Army shifts north about 20 miles. No ability to counterattack with that!
However, all is not lost...one Tank Corp is isolated by maneuver, and for the most part, the line remains fortified. This should force the Soviets into another turn of battering fortifications rather than running rampant in the German rear - at least in 3rd Pz Armee's area.
The question is, where else will the storm break?
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RE: The front line
Turn 129; Dec 2, 1943......Blizzard with snow in North Soviet Zone
Soviets expand their offensive in front of Moscow by attacking the left flank of 9th Army, stoutly defended by LVII PzKps which inflict heavy losses, and manage to reoccupy any vacated territory. The right flank of 9th Army is also attacked, and this, with lakes beginning to freeze, force 9th Army to pull back a bit to shorten lines. I hate giving up territory without a fight - especially fortified hexes!! But, here it is for the best.
With the attacks against 9th Army, and some decreased pressure against 3rd Pz Armee, XXXXVII PzKps remains near Rzhev, ready to assist north in 9th Army's area, or east in 3rd Pz Armee's area.
Coming up from the south, XL PzKps attacks the furthest most Rifle Corps in an attempt to shorten lines, but the attack is bloodily repulsed - 400+ panzers, including a Tiger Battalion from 2xPz Divs can't dislodge the Rifle Corps!! Ugh!
Of course the Rifle Corps managed to reach fort level 1 immediately!!
In any case, so far, we can contain the Soviet offensive....but it will likely expand...
Soviets expand their offensive in front of Moscow by attacking the left flank of 9th Army, stoutly defended by LVII PzKps which inflict heavy losses, and manage to reoccupy any vacated territory. The right flank of 9th Army is also attacked, and this, with lakes beginning to freeze, force 9th Army to pull back a bit to shorten lines. I hate giving up territory without a fight - especially fortified hexes!! But, here it is for the best.
With the attacks against 9th Army, and some decreased pressure against 3rd Pz Armee, XXXXVII PzKps remains near Rzhev, ready to assist north in 9th Army's area, or east in 3rd Pz Armee's area.
Coming up from the south, XL PzKps attacks the furthest most Rifle Corps in an attempt to shorten lines, but the attack is bloodily repulsed - 400+ panzers, including a Tiger Battalion from 2xPz Divs can't dislodge the Rifle Corps!! Ugh!
Of course the Rifle Corps managed to reach fort level 1 immediately!!
In any case, so far, we can contain the Soviet offensive....but it will likely expand...
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RE: Soviet Offensive Widens
Turn 130; Dec 9, 1943.....Blizzard
As exepected, the Soviet offensive widens along the front. Screen shot shows location of current Soviet thrusts. The two red circles are what air recon shows hasn't been committed yet. But air recon is not "all seeing" - is that the only Soviet concentrations? Probably not. Also shown are the disposition of the Panzerwaffe along the front - fairly balanced for the most part. AGB remains the strongest force - not only in panzers, but also in infantry as well - and will remain so with the Soviets concentrating just to the east. AGN may have to be a bill payer, despite increasing activity along the front there as well.
Getting to the point of too many threats to effectively respond. In a perfect world, 2xPzKps are needed to effectively parry a Soviet thrust - one isn't enough - and that assumes each PzKps has 3 or so effective panzer or panzergrenadier divisions.
But, we can't be strong everywhere, can we???
As exepected, the Soviet offensive widens along the front. Screen shot shows location of current Soviet thrusts. The two red circles are what air recon shows hasn't been committed yet. But air recon is not "all seeing" - is that the only Soviet concentrations? Probably not. Also shown are the disposition of the Panzerwaffe along the front - fairly balanced for the most part. AGB remains the strongest force - not only in panzers, but also in infantry as well - and will remain so with the Soviets concentrating just to the east. AGN may have to be a bill payer, despite increasing activity along the front there as well.
Getting to the point of too many threats to effectively respond. In a perfect world, 2xPzKps are needed to effectively parry a Soviet thrust - one isn't enough - and that assumes each PzKps has 3 or so effective panzer or panzergrenadier divisions.
But, we can't be strong everywhere, can we???
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RE: Soviet Offensive Widens
It is against 18th Army, along the vaunted "Volkov Line" that the Soviets managed to achieve surprise. Air recon failed to pick up any indication of a Soviet offensive - indicators are artillery, cavalry, and of course tank corps.
Having said that, I figured that once the Volkov froze, he'd strike across it. I also figured I'd notice the build up - didn't work that way. The Volkov froze, and he struck without warning. Now, warning or not, there really wasn't much I could do about it either - I didn't pull forces away from 18th Army, and with the attacks against 3rd Pz Armee, no reinforcements would have been forthcoming.
As it stands, the Soviets effectively penetrated the Volkov Line with one attack - costly, but effective. His attack cuts off a Division +, with its back on Lake Ilmen. With only 9th Pz in the area as a reserve, I'm not risking it to counterattack to establish a corridor. More likely it too would get cut off. So, that's a write off - hopefully, as its not isolated, it can hold and take a few Soviets with it.
I now expect the Soviets to press to clear the Volkov River of fortifications and threaten Leningrad. It should be a slow, grinding fight as the terrain is miserable, and fortifications fairly robust. Still, stack a few Rifle Corps together, and they are going to pound forward.
What hasn't occurred yet is a thrust to the Valdai Hills. Again, recon says there is no threat here. Not sure I want to pull out the 4xPZ and 1xPG Divs in the area - at least not just yet.
Having said that, I figured that once the Volkov froze, he'd strike across it. I also figured I'd notice the build up - didn't work that way. The Volkov froze, and he struck without warning. Now, warning or not, there really wasn't much I could do about it either - I didn't pull forces away from 18th Army, and with the attacks against 3rd Pz Armee, no reinforcements would have been forthcoming.
As it stands, the Soviets effectively penetrated the Volkov Line with one attack - costly, but effective. His attack cuts off a Division +, with its back on Lake Ilmen. With only 9th Pz in the area as a reserve, I'm not risking it to counterattack to establish a corridor. More likely it too would get cut off. So, that's a write off - hopefully, as its not isolated, it can hold and take a few Soviets with it.
I now expect the Soviets to press to clear the Volkov River of fortifications and threaten Leningrad. It should be a slow, grinding fight as the terrain is miserable, and fortifications fairly robust. Still, stack a few Rifle Corps together, and they are going to pound forward.
What hasn't occurred yet is a thrust to the Valdai Hills. Again, recon says there is no threat here. Not sure I want to pull out the 4xPZ and 1xPG Divs in the area - at least not just yet.
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RE: Soviet Offensive Widens
Things get interesting closer to Moscow. 9th Army's LVII PzKps is pushed back out of its initial fortification line, but the Soviets occupy the newly won terrain only with Rifle Divsions - which LVII PzKps quickly counter-attacks to displace. LVII PzKps does not occupy the ground however, and remain in the second line fortifications.
Due west of Moscow, the Soviets push hard against 3rd Pz Armee's northern Korps and isolate 2xIN Divs which were the closest German elements to Moscow - a mere 20 miles! This called for XXXXVII PzKps to counterattack the Soviet Tank Corps spearhead - which was pushed back after losing over 150 tanks in exchange for about 20 German. XXXXVII PzKps did leave 22 Pz Div north of Rzhev just in case the Soviets expanded the attack south of Kalinin.
3rd Pz Armee's other PzKps, the XL PzKps pushed a Rifle Corps back, allowing it to isolate 2xRifle Corps and hopefully disrupt Soviet attacks for a week or so. Really no chance in isolating these Russians for an extended period of time, nor effectively attacking them now.
Still, things could look worse. As they don't this leads me to believe that this is NOT the main Soviet attack - merely probes to either draw and/or tie down German reserves.
I still think the main blow will be opposite Kharkov.....
Due west of Moscow, the Soviets push hard against 3rd Pz Armee's northern Korps and isolate 2xIN Divs which were the closest German elements to Moscow - a mere 20 miles! This called for XXXXVII PzKps to counterattack the Soviet Tank Corps spearhead - which was pushed back after losing over 150 tanks in exchange for about 20 German. XXXXVII PzKps did leave 22 Pz Div north of Rzhev just in case the Soviets expanded the attack south of Kalinin.
3rd Pz Armee's other PzKps, the XL PzKps pushed a Rifle Corps back, allowing it to isolate 2xRifle Corps and hopefully disrupt Soviet attacks for a week or so. Really no chance in isolating these Russians for an extended period of time, nor effectively attacking them now.
Still, things could look worse. As they don't this leads me to believe that this is NOT the main Soviet attack - merely probes to either draw and/or tie down German reserves.
I still think the main blow will be opposite Kharkov.....
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RE: Soviet Offensive Widens
The Soviet blow finally falls on Armee Groupe A - Strong Soviet attacks, supported by Tank Corps hit the right wing of 17th Army and the left wing of 1st Pz Armee near Stalino - the objective apparently was to cut off the easternmost German Corps. They didn't quite make it.
XXXXVI PzKps, consisting of only the 11th Pz Div an a SS Mot Bde quickly counterattacked the penetration through 17th Army's area, throwing back the lead two Soviet Tank Corps - but the German strength was not enough to offset the huge numerical superiority of the Soviet tankers - some 200 German panzers against over 500 Soviet machines could only advance so far! Still they kept the gap between the two Soviet thrusts open wide enough to allow the German Korps to pull back. Reinforcing 1st SS Pz Div arrived to late to support XXXXVI PzKps attack, but is now ready to meet the next Soviet push.
With the blow finally falling on 1st Pz Armee, XXXXVIII PzKps (13, 14 Pz) was finally recalled from near Kharkov back to 1st Pz Armee, and took up postions just south of XXXXVI PzKps, also awaiting the next Soviet blows.
Along with 1st SS Pz, 25th Pz arrived in the area, becoming, for now, a reserve for 17th Army.
With XXXXVIII PzKps moving from the Kharkov area, 4th Pz Armee pulled LVI PzKps ( 2xPz, PG), out of the line near Belgorod and positioned them to the west of Kharkov to await any attacks toward the city. 2nd Hun Army retained 27 Pz Div when XXXXVIII PzKps pulled out as a "stiffener", but I don't trust 2nd Hun Army to hold Kharkov if that Soviet horde to its east is released.
And that is what I think the Soviet plan boils down - press the German line north and south in order to pull reserves away from the "Schwerpunkt" - and to me that area is between Orel and Kharkov.
XXXXVI PzKps, consisting of only the 11th Pz Div an a SS Mot Bde quickly counterattacked the penetration through 17th Army's area, throwing back the lead two Soviet Tank Corps - but the German strength was not enough to offset the huge numerical superiority of the Soviet tankers - some 200 German panzers against over 500 Soviet machines could only advance so far! Still they kept the gap between the two Soviet thrusts open wide enough to allow the German Korps to pull back. Reinforcing 1st SS Pz Div arrived to late to support XXXXVI PzKps attack, but is now ready to meet the next Soviet push.
With the blow finally falling on 1st Pz Armee, XXXXVIII PzKps (13, 14 Pz) was finally recalled from near Kharkov back to 1st Pz Armee, and took up postions just south of XXXXVI PzKps, also awaiting the next Soviet blows.
Along with 1st SS Pz, 25th Pz arrived in the area, becoming, for now, a reserve for 17th Army.
With XXXXVIII PzKps moving from the Kharkov area, 4th Pz Armee pulled LVI PzKps ( 2xPz, PG), out of the line near Belgorod and positioned them to the west of Kharkov to await any attacks toward the city. 2nd Hun Army retained 27 Pz Div when XXXXVIII PzKps pulled out as a "stiffener", but I don't trust 2nd Hun Army to hold Kharkov if that Soviet horde to its east is released.
And that is what I think the Soviet plan boils down - press the German line north and south in order to pull reserves away from the "Schwerpunkt" - and to me that area is between Orel and Kharkov.
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RE: Soviet Offensive Widens
excellent stuff 
seeing you hold such a vast amount of territory and it´s turning into 1944 soon. it´ll be intresting to see the outcome of this one... It appears to be more than possible for you to hold Berlin untill the end, if not more!
seeing you hold such a vast amount of territory and it´s turning into 1944 soon. it´ll be intresting to see the outcome of this one... It appears to be more than possible for you to hold Berlin untill the end, if not more!
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RE: Soviet Offensive Widens
thanks Roly - will attempt to hold as far east as I can!