Defence strenght in 3.4 patch

This forum is for official support and troubleshooting FAQs.

Moderators: ralphtricky, JAMiAM

User avatar
Curtis Lemay
Posts: 15477
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 3:12 pm
Location: Houston, TX

RE: Defence strenght in 3.4 patch

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: ColinWright

Perhaps it would be better if in the event of a stack containing uncooperative units become involved in combat, the weaker element would simply fail to participate in the combat if it was an attack or promptly attempt to retreat if it was a matter of defending? This would at least leave part of the troops to attempt a reasonable attack or defence. This effect could even be a designer-set probability event, so that -- say -- as the Germans in an Eastern Front scenario, you could try holding a hex with mingled Rumanians and Hungarians, knowing there was a pretty good chance of some bloody nonsense transpiring and part of the force simply retreating before combat, or in North Africa, you could put in a mixed German-Italian attack -- knowing that the Italians might simply fail to leave the start line.

I agree that there is an issue. The problem is that it's going to require an enormous amount of sophistication to determine which units are the cooperative ones and which are the uncooperative ones. Or even to determine which units are the strong ones and which are the weak ones. A simpler solution would be to just ignore cooperation effects of retreated units.
My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site
User avatar
Curtis Lemay
Posts: 15477
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 3:12 pm
Location: Houston, TX

RE: Defence strenght in 3.4 patch

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: 1_Lzard

It's obvious that some parts completely overwhelm the designer's intent and shouldn't be, eh?

Obvious? I remain a sceptic. I just re-ran a PO vs. PO test of my "Germany 1945" scenario and the Allies (the attackers) won ahead of schedule. Most previous tests had been draws. Now human defenders may be doing something the PO isn't, of course. But that still runs counter to this thread's thesis that there has been a huge shift in favor of the defender.

The changes to the combat model in 3.4 were incremental, not order-of-magnitude (assuming they work as designed). The maximum increase in defense strength due to the combining of deployment and terrain is 41%. The maximum cooperation penalty is 33%.

The one area where there was a dramatic revision was in the use of ant units. Players used to attacking with a trivial unit supported by enormous ranged support will indeed see a huge change. But that's a good thing.
My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site
User avatar
Panama
Posts: 1362
Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2009 1:48 pm

RE: Defence strenght in 3.4 patch

Post by Panama »

IMO it is a sad thing that cooperation is determined by a set in stone game engine code.
robryl
Posts: 16
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2011 7:10 pm

RE: Defence strenght in 3.4 patch

Post by robryl »

I realy dident notice any changes when playing against the PO, played all RTM scenarios and had no majord difficulties as the attacker, when trying them as defender I succeden in stopping the attacking PO quickly and then got boared and ended the games. I saw nothing strange in this, but was just pleased of my good defence skills. It was when playing e-mail games that the troubles started, I assume that my opponent uses ignore losses all the time and keeps his forces dug in. Posting a picture of one ordinary attack from Götterdamung, beeing a flank attack with fully rested forces (exept arty which are at 50% supply after trying to "dig up" the enemy) against two german reg. The probability of succes is very low. How come? When brining in more units to the attack the density penalties rises dramaticly and the succes rate almost never changes from very low.
I also becomes confused that somtimes when i am going to attack, the same kind of targets that givs me this heavy losses, it instead retreats before combat.
Attachments
Russianattack.gif
Russianattack.gif (172.05 KiB) Viewed 579 times
ColinWright
Posts: 2604
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2005 6:28 pm

RE: Defence strenght in 3.4 patch

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: ColinWright

Perhaps it would be better if in the event of a stack containing uncooperative units become involved in combat, the weaker element would simply fail to participate in the combat if it was an attack or promptly attempt to retreat if it was a matter of defending? This would at least leave part of the troops to attempt a reasonable attack or defence. This effect could even be a designer-set probability event, so that -- say -- as the Germans in an Eastern Front scenario, you could try holding a hex with mingled Rumanians and Hungarians, knowing there was a pretty good chance of some bloody nonsense transpiring and part of the force simply retreating before combat, or in North Africa, you could put in a mixed German-Italian attack -- knowing that the Italians might simply fail to leave the start line.

I agree that there is an issue. The problem is that it's going to require an enormous amount of sophistication to determine which units are the cooperative ones and which are the uncooperative ones. Or even to determine which units are the strong ones and which are the weak ones. A simpler solution would be to just ignore cooperation effects of retreated units.

Well, there are also units in re-org. In AyV, my opponent might have a subdivided 1-1 left in a hex with that orange band. In that scenario, it's entirely possible all of the units capable of reinforcing the hex are uncooperative. So now the defender has no choice but to abandon the hex.

Maybe retreat a bit on the dire effects non-cooperation has now acquired. Alternatively, one might want to look at permitting reorganizing units to be disbanded.

Don't suppose the effect itself could be made designer scalable?

As it is, one needs to think carefully about having any ground units that are uncooperative with other ground units. Bad things will happen if they both wind up in the same hex and the enemy attacks.
I am not Charlie Hebdo
ColinWright
Posts: 2604
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2005 6:28 pm

RE: Defence strenght in 3.4 patch

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: Panama

IMO it is a sad thing that cooperation is determined by a set in stone game engine code.

Well, note that the designer determines how cooperative units will be. So it's not 'set in stone.'

However, the dire effects of lack of cooperation are a bit much for most situations, and if the effect could be scaled, it would give us another tool.
I am not Charlie Hebdo
ColinWright
Posts: 2604
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2005 6:28 pm

RE: Defence strenght in 3.4 patch

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: 1_Lzard

There's a new patch coming out and everything about it will only be worse unless designers get with the noting....

This time, can some effort be made to advertise and define the proposed changes before the release?

As seen, not doing so does nothing to abate the shitstorm. On the other hand, it's a lot easier to placate the critics (read 'me')/at least allow them to feel they've had a chance to comment rather than just being confronted with a fait accompli. Given the timeline on these things, it's also handy if one has a good idea of precisely what is going to change as one works on designs. It's hell to discover the 'feature' one has been exploiting is about to be defined as a 'bug' and whisked away.
I am not Charlie Hebdo
User avatar
1_Lzard
Posts: 277
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2010 7:36 pm
Location: McMinnville, OR

RE: Defence strenght in 3.4 patch

Post by 1_Lzard »

Sorry, Colin........still have the NDA.....still can't talk!
 
 
"I have the brain of a Genius, and the heart of a Little Child. I keep them in a jar under my bed!"
User avatar
1_Lzard
Posts: 277
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2010 7:36 pm
Location: McMinnville, OR

RE: Defence strenght in 3.4 patch

Post by 1_Lzard »

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: 1_Lzard

It's obvious that some parts completely overwhelm the designer's intent and shouldn't be, eh?

Obvious? I remain a sceptic. I just re-ran a PO vs. PO test of my "Germany 1945" scenario and the Allies (the attackers) won ahead of schedule. Most previous tests had been draws. Now human defenders may be doing something the PO isn't, of course. But that still runs counter to this thread's thesis that there has been a huge shift in favor of the defender.

The changes to the combat model in 3.4 were incremental, not order-of-magnitude (assuming they work as designed). The maximum increase in defense strength due to the combining of deployment and terrain is 41%. The maximum cooperation penalty is 33%.

The one area where there was a dramatic revision was in the use of ant units. Players used to attacking with a trivial unit supported by enormous ranged support will indeed see a huge change. But that's a good thing.

LOL! Considering your the 'oldest' playtester amoung us, Bob, I wouldn't expect anything from a patch to overwhelm YOU..........I 'could' see some of the details being missed by a 'new' designer, though. What I was really talking about is the use of 3.4 and later bits being used to run the 'Classic' scenarios and any developed by a new designer.


"I have the brain of a Genius, and the heart of a Little Child. I keep them in a jar under my bed!"
User avatar
Panama
Posts: 1362
Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2009 1:48 pm

RE: Defence strenght in 3.4 patch

Post by Panama »

ORIGINAL: ColinWright

ORIGINAL: Panama

IMO it is a sad thing that cooperation is determined by a set in stone game engine code.

Well, note that the designer determines how cooperative units will be. So it's not 'set in stone.'

However, the dire effects of lack of cooperation are a bit much for most situations, and if the effect could be scaled, it would give us another tool.

It most certainly is. There is only so much you can do without making everyone free to support anyone. The limitations of support are an impediment to scenario design. The paths are few.
User avatar
Panama
Posts: 1362
Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2009 1:48 pm

RE: Defence strenght in 3.4 patch

Post by Panama »

ORIGINAL: ColinWright
ORIGINAL: 1_Lzard

There's a new patch coming out and everything about it will only be worse unless designers get with the noting....

This time, can some effort be made to advertise and define the proposed changes before the release?

As seen, not doing so does nothing to abate the shitstorm. On the other hand, it's a lot easier to placate the critics (read 'me')/at least allow them to feel they've had a chance to comment rather than just being confronted with a fait accompli. Given the timeline on these things, it's also handy if one has a good idea of precisely what is going to change as one works on designs. It's hell to discover the 'feature' one has been exploiting is about to be defined as a 'bug' and whisked away.

+1

Regardless of who does the bean spilling, some kind of heads up would be nice.

Sorry. I didn't really mean nice. I actually meant polite and courteous.

Egads. Did I say polite and courteous. Not here. Not on this forum. [:D][:D][X(][8|]
ColinWright
Posts: 2604
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2005 6:28 pm

RE: Defence strenght in 3.4 patch

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: 1_Lzard

Sorry, Colin........still have the NDA.....still can't talk!


In context, I find it impossible to take this argument seriously.

This isn't exactly a big-money property we're talking about. It might be pleasant to think someone cares, but no one does. Should you 'reveal' this information, WHO is going to take advantage of it, how, and why?

We're talking about relatively trivial tweaks to a program that is fifteen years old or something and has a potential audience numbering in the hundreds. We're not even talking about the actual changes to the code, but merely the expected effects of those changes.

Let's get real. Send whoever an e-mail, ask if it's okay to discuss what's to be put in the next patch, and get his authorization.
I am not Charlie Hebdo
User avatar
Panama
Posts: 1362
Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2009 1:48 pm

RE: Defence strenght in 3.4 patch

Post by Panama »

ORIGINAL: ColinWright
ORIGINAL: 1_Lzard

Sorry, Colin........still have the NDA.....still can't talk!



Let's get real. Send whoever an e-mail, ask if it's okay to discuss what's to be put in the next patch, and get his authorization.

Nein. There vill be NO authorization off ANYTHING. Dumbkopf!!!!

Image
Attachments
hitler.jpg
hitler.jpg (124.04 KiB) Viewed 572 times
Oberst_Klink
Posts: 4925
Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2008 7:37 pm
Location: Germany
Contact:

RE: Defence strenght in 3.4 patch

Post by Oberst_Klink »

We Must Hack Our Way Through!

It would be nice if y'all 3.5 Beta testin' folks would keep the loyal scenario testin', scenario creatin', and un-official TS and CS folks in the pipeline though...

Klink, Oberst

My Blog & on Twitter.
Visit CS Legion on Twitter & Facebook for updates.
robryl
Posts: 16
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2011 7:10 pm

RE: Defence strenght in 3.4 patch

Post by robryl »

Hmm
Is it always like this in this forum, that the threads ends up in a completely new discussion. I dont find much connection to the issue "defence strenght in patch 3.4" in most of the resent posts.
As for me who started this discussion I think that there is more information/ experiences to discuss about my first post.
I also thinks that the forum would be more easy to follow, if new interesting topics where posted in a new thread.

Best regards Carolus Rex
User avatar
Curtis Lemay
Posts: 15477
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 3:12 pm
Location: Houston, TX

RE: Defence strenght in 3.4 patch

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: Panama

IMO it is a sad thing that cooperation is determined by a set in stone game engine code.

It's a sad thing that we don't have infinite coding time and have to be judicious how we expend the tiny precious amount we have.

Furthermore, it may not be a bad thing that it remained set in stone - so players can get a handle on it.
My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site
User avatar
Curtis Lemay
Posts: 15477
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 3:12 pm
Location: Houston, TX

RE: Defence strenght in 3.4 patch

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: ColinWright

However, the dire effects of lack of cooperation are a bit much for most situations, ...

I'm dubious that there are dire effects. The tests I did showed a very slight effect. Remember that, prior to 3.4, there was some bug causing non-cooperation to perversely be beneficial. That bug was never found - we just overpowered it with the new penalties. So the total penalty is less than the nominal levels stated.
My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site
User avatar
Curtis Lemay
Posts: 15477
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 3:12 pm
Location: Houston, TX

RE: Defence strenght in 3.4 patch

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: ColinWright

This time, can some effort be made to advertise and define the proposed changes before the release?

You mean like was done last time?

Let's review: The "What's New" for 3.4 was posted on this board on 7/26/2010. There was a beta posted shortly after that, as well. The final release wasn't until 2/2/2011. That's over six months advance notice. And that discounts the information in the Wishlist document - that detailed some of the completed features well before that.

We testers can't reveal anything, but the Matrix officials can, if they choose to.
My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site
User avatar
Curtis Lemay
Posts: 15477
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 3:12 pm
Location: Houston, TX

RE: Defence strenght in 3.4 patch

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: 1_Lzard

LOL! Considering your the 'oldest' playtester amoung us, Bob, I wouldn't expect anything from a patch to overwhelm YOU..........I 'could' see some of the details being missed by a 'new' designer, though. What I was really talking about is the use of 3.4 and later bits being used to run the 'Classic' scenarios and any developed by a new designer.

I suppose you're talking about something other than the new combat model then. I was just objecting to any assumption that the anecdotal complaints about that constitute a settled issue. I remain a skeptic till we get some real proof.
My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site
ogar
Posts: 297
Joined: Sun Sep 06, 2009 8:31 pm

RE: Defence strenght in 3.4 patch

Post by ogar »

Carolus,

Sorry I did not post my 2 cents last night, now echoing your thoughts, -- we have gotten far afield from the original post -- which was why is one guy's experience so different on 3.4 vs earlier versions.

I think the side track (who gets notice of engine changes affecting scenario design and play, when) is worthy of at least a thread (or thread of threads) in its own right.

But cutting back to the start of this -- I don't think we've helped a lot in resolving Carolus' questions. (And thanks to folks like Telumar, Klink and others who worked at this earlier.) I do think Telumar has identified some key areas with the 3.4 changes and the need for planned heavy shelling on fort. positions, but maybe there's something else to look at.

Has Carolus tried emailling the designers -- I'm guessing he's playing Sil's mod of Gott. and I know Rob K visits here; both men are responsive, and they may have insights.

Has Carolus tried playing a newer scenario -- like Klink's 48 Panzer or Telumar's Anzio 2KM or any scenario rolled out since summer 2010 -- and played that vs PO (with toawlog) and then vs a human ? (yeah -- that's a lot of work, but sometimes that is how you learn)

Post Reply

Return to “TOAW III Support”