The PERFECT WAR Mod: Allied Side

[John 3rd]

Oldman: What do you--specifically--have in mind?

[oldman45]

I am still working on that John. I need to better understand the treaty of 1930 and figure out what could be added and keep the US in compliance. The only number I do know is the 4 Yorktown's. I have to find out more for the cruisers. The DD's would be replaced with a modernized version first then new ones built to get up to the limits and for right now clueless on the subs. I am still looking for the restrictions that the 1930 treaty put on those ships.

Using this may allow putting the new BB's into production with the goal of completion in 36/37 (when the treat ends) It might also allow the Essex's to be further along in the design stage.

[oldman45]

I just found this. Now with some help we can see what the US had in 1930.

1930 treaty

I only put the US tonnage in, the link shows UK and Japan.


Article XVI

1. The completed tonnage in the cruiser, destroyer and submarine categories which is not to be exceeded on 31 December 1936 is given in the following table:

Maximum quantity of cruisers, destroyers and submarines allowed to each nation Categories
United States

Cruisers:
(a) with guns of more than 6.1 inch (155 mm) calibre: 180,000 tons

(b) with guns of 6.1 inch (155 mm) calibre or less: 143,500 tons

Destroyers 150,000 tons

Submarines 52,700 tons

According to the Senate debate the US was short 120,000 tons. That is what I want to bring into play. I am still digging.

[Blackhorse]

ORIGINAL: kfsgo

Do you think you're committed to the Blackhorse plan for China? The reason I ask is that giving the Chinese control of Yangtze 'ports' (as recognized in-game) gives you an opening for adding the respective river-based naval forces - there seem to have been a few, though I assume there's some reason they haven't been included in anything up to now. Not too much military value, I suppose, but it'd at least make direct amphibious landings against the Chinese ports fractionally less trivial.

I'd love to see this, but in truth, given Japan's complete air supremacy, it is likely that any Chinese river cruiser/ gunboat would have been sunk by 12/41, even with my scenario.

An alternative possibility is to include the US Navy Yangtze River patrol gunboats, including the Panay, based at Hankow.

[oldman45]

Rough numbers, up to 27 destroyers can be added to the fleet depending on which class. Looks like the cruiser numbers stay the same. Submarines is a bit of a mess. Plus I am not sure how to figure the "over age" ships. In theory, assuming I understand how this works, the US could have built more DD's since all the Clemsons' and Wilkes were over age.

Article VII
The total tonnage for aircraft carriers of each of the Contracting Powers shall not exceed in standard displacement, for the United States 135,000 tons (137,160 metric tons); for the British Empire 135,000 tons (137,160 metric tons); for France 60,000 tons (60,960 metric tons); for Italy 60,000 tons (60,960 metric tons); for Japan 81,000 tons (82,296 metric tons).

There are 2 other provisions, each country can build 2 carriers @ 33k tons and the rest can be no larger than 27k standard displacement.

Assuming we keep the London treaty in tact, the US is fairly close to its limits on carriers assuming those under construction prior to 1936. We could have started building 600tn escorts but that is another debate.

[John 3rd]

I feel like I have slept with these Treaties! Know them pretty well.

Couple of thoughts based on above and earlier Posts:

USA
1. A few more DDs of pre-Fletcher classes seem OK.

2. What about Wasp being the 4th Yorktown? Instead of a limited compromise using up the remaining tonnage, the US sees where things are going and simply builds her along Yorktown's proven lines.

3. Modernize the Big 5 BB. Whatever that might mean...
--Could that mean better AA?
--What else was planned for them? Juan???

4. The overage issue is ships reaching 20 Years of age. These could then be replaced once demilitarized/decommisioned. Doubt if you could squeeze anymore cruisers out of the Congress prior to the Two-Ocean Bill.

5. Redeploy some of the Fleet as we have described.

6. Set-Up stronger bases with limited LCU additions that support Aircraft as well as a couple of Sub Bases as we've discussed.

7. Slightly increase aircraft and squadrons in Philippines and along the air pipeline in the Central Pacific.

8. Add Forts to Bataan and increase supply there.


Britain
Here is an area that we could really have some fun with. Ideas that have been tossed out or on the burner:
1. A change within Force Z composition. Perhaps another BC? Add several CAs/CLs and DDs that start the war spreadout in the IO.

2. Improve Singapore's Aircraft composition to something more envisioned with the 335+ Front-Line Planes desired:
--How about a couple of Hurricane or, dare I say, Spitfire Squadrons?
--Completely fillout the Vilderbeest and Swordfish units.
--More Recon/Air Search assets

3. A somewhat built defense line north of Singapore.

4. How about the 18th ID STARTING in Singapore or at sea in the IO and ready for the player to send it wherever?

5. Better trained Indian Division in Malaya.

Dutch
1. We had some ships thrown out for additional consideration earlier. What about them?

2. A few more modern planes for them?

Additions? Like? Hate?

Comments???

[DOCUP]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

I feel like I have slept with these Treaties! Know them pretty well.

Couple of thoughts based on above and earlier Posts:

USA
1. A few more DDs of pre-Fletcher classes seem OK.

2. What about Wasp being the 4th Yorktown? Instead of a limited compromise using up the remaining tonnage, the US sees where things are going and simply builds her along Yorktown's proven lines.

3. Modernize the Big 5 BB. Whatever that might mean...
--Could that mean better AA?
--What else was planned for them? Juan???

4. The overage issue is ships reaching 20 Years of age. These could then be replaced once demilitarized/decommisioned. Doubt if you could squeeze anymore cruisers out of the Congress prior to the Two-Ocean Bill.

5. Redeploy some of the Fleet as we have described.

6. Set-Up stronger bases with limited LCU additions that support Aircraft as well as a couple of Sub Bases as we've discussed.

7. Slightly increase aircraft and squadrons in Philippines and along the air pipeline in the Central Pacific.

8. Add Forts to Bataan and increase supply there.


Britain
Here is an area that we could really have some fun with. Ideas that have been tossed out or on the burner:
1. A change within Force Z composition. Perhaps another BC? Add several CAs/CLs and DDs that start the war spreadout in the IO.

2. Improve Singapore's Aircraft composition to something more envisioned with the 335+ Front-Line Planes desired:
--How about a couple of Hurricane or, dare I say, Spitfire Squadrons?
--Completely fillout the Vilderbeest and Swordfish units.
--More Recon/Air Search assets

3. A somewhat built defense line north of Singapore.

4. How about the 18th ID STARTING in Singapore or at sea in the IO and ready for the player to send it wherever?

5. Better trained Indian Division in Malaya.

Dutch
1. We had some ships thrown out for additional consideration earlier. What about them?

2. A few more modern planes for them?

Additions? Like? Hate?

Comments???

USA
1. I like. I agree with Oldman around 20 could of been built.

2. I'm cool with it. But what about those Isolantionist standing to my left.[:D]

3. I do like this one. I'm interested in if what I read is close to what you all can dig up.

4. What about converting them to DEs, APDs etc. Does this mess with the treaty? You could say that everyone knew of the subs potential and have to do something with these ships it would save money to convert them over.

5. Hmmm Rob Peter to pay Paul.

6. I like.

7. I like.

8. I like.

What about fixing some of the shortcomings of the ships already in service or in the pipeline. ie Omha Class. What about AC production?

Britian

1. Interesting again robbing Peter to pay Paul.

2. I like this one.

3. I like.

4. I like it out to see, not at Singers.

5. I like.

Dutch

I like both ideas.

French

Have you thought about the free french fleet?

China

Whats the story here. Are you going with Blackhorses storyline.

[John 3rd]

We certainly go with his storyline. Great concept! It is excellent and man--oh man--it might be fun to start deep in an early ground war!


Free French? Does anyone know of ANY Free French that might--reasonably--have made it to the Pacific? We have Le Triomphant but that is it...

[Terminus]

ORIGINAL: DOCUP

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

I feel like I have slept with these Treaties! Know them pretty well.

Couple of thoughts based on above and earlier Posts:

USA
1. A few more DDs of pre-Fletcher classes seem OK.

2. What about Wasp being the 4th Yorktown? Instead of a limited compromise using up the remaining tonnage, the US sees where things are going and simply builds her along Yorktown's proven lines.

3. Modernize the Big 5 BB. Whatever that might mean...
--Could that mean better AA?
--What else was planned for them? Juan???

4. The overage issue is ships reaching 20 Years of age. These could then be replaced once demilitarized/decommisioned. Doubt if you could squeeze anymore cruisers out of the Congress prior to the Two-Ocean Bill.

5. Redeploy some of the Fleet as we have described.

6. Set-Up stronger bases with limited LCU additions that support Aircraft as well as a couple of Sub Bases as we've discussed.

7. Slightly increase aircraft and squadrons in Philippines and along the air pipeline in the Central Pacific.

8. Add Forts to Bataan and increase supply there.


Britain
Here is an area that we could really have some fun with. Ideas that have been tossed out or on the burner:
1. A change within Force Z composition. Perhaps another BC? Add several CAs/CLs and DDs that start the war spreadout in the IO.

2. Improve Singapore's Aircraft composition to something more envisioned with the 335+ Front-Line Planes desired:
--How about a couple of Hurricane or, dare I say, Spitfire Squadrons?
--Completely fillout the Vilderbeest and Swordfish units.
--More Recon/Air Search assets

3. A somewhat built defense line north of Singapore.

4. How about the 18th ID STARTING in Singapore or at sea in the IO and ready for the player to send it wherever?

5. Better trained Indian Division in Malaya.

Dutch
1. We had some ships thrown out for additional consideration earlier. What about them?

2. A few more modern planes for them?

Additions? Like? Hate?

Comments???

USA
1. I like. I agree with Oldman around 20 could of been built.

2. I'm cool with it. But what about those Isolantionist standing to my left.[:D]

3. I do like this one. I'm interested in if what I read is close to what you all can dig up.

4. What about converting them to DEs, APDs etc. Does this mess with the treaty? You could say that everyone knew of the subs potential and have to do something with these ships it would save money to convert them over.

5. Hmmm Rob Peter to pay Paul.

6. I like.

7. I like.

8. I like.

What about fixing some of the shortcomings of the ships already in service or in the pipeline. ie Omha Class. What about AC production?

Britian

1. Interesting again robbing Peter to pay Paul.

2. I like this one.

3. I like.

4. I like it out to see, not at Singers.

5. I like.

Dutch

I like both ideas.

French

Have you thought about the free french fleet?

China

Whats the story here. Are you going with Blackhorses storyline.

No offense, but when you say "I like it" to everything, it stops being meaningful.

[Terminus]

There was precisely NO chance of Spitfires going to Malaya. Think about it; autumn and early winter of 1941. The RAF needs EVERY SINGLE Spitfire on the Channel front and in the Mediterranean. More Hurricanes, yeah... The only way we can justify it is if the North African campaign is over.

[Terminus]

As for the Dutch, they were looking to buy G36s and Vindicators pre-war. Not exactly super modern, but still.

[John 3rd]

Just walked to school to pick-up my boys and had several ideas:

How about--thinking on justification on a stronger Allied response/presence on Dec 7th--their is now slow expansion of the China War like what happened IRL. Going along Blackhorse's idea the Japanese Army is corralled and restrained until fall-1939/early-1940 when it launches a brutal FULL SCALE assault into China. A million men deploy and attack with utter ruthlessness. Hitler is active in Europe with war there. The Japanese offensive carries through 1940 and PICKS UP STEAM in 1941. The Allies must respond and do something. Couple this with the historical occupation of Indochina and one could see real pressure for action.

The Allies make as much of a stopgap adjustment as they can before the hammer falls Dec 7th:

A. Old ships (S-Boats for example) are pressed into service.
B. Roosevelt does NOT force the deployment of the 3 Idaho's and their support ships from Pearl Harbor to the East Coast.
C. Churchill sends more then can be spared from GB.
D. ABDA begins to take shape PRIOR to the war. Why not have the ships better organized? Marblehead and her 4 DD could be in Singapore...
E. Read anything listed in my previous Post as here...

Additionally, why not pull all the Omaha's to the West Coast and have them started on their Conversion to CLAA. They move into the reinforcement cue instead of having to move them there and actually start the conversion. Replace Marblehead with a modern CA or add a friend to USS Boise.

How about that?

[John 3rd]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

As for the Dutch, they were looking to buy G36s and Vindicators pre-war. Not exactly super modern, but still.

Dutch Vindicators? NICE! Stupid question--what is a G36?

[Blackhorse]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Free French? Does anyone know of ANY Free French that might--reasonably--have made it to the Pacific? We have Le Triomphant but that is it...

In June, 1940, Churchill proposed a Franco-British union to keep France in the war. The French President and Premier supported the proposal, but the Cabinet rejected it. Wikipediasuggests that if the proposal had been been made only a few days earlier, the French might well have accepted the offer.

In an alternative history, instead of waiting until the 16th, Churchill offers a union as the Germans march into Paris on June 14th. The French cabinet accepts. Mainland France is still overrun, but there is no Vichy, and the fleet sails to English and Free French (now Anglo-French) ports.

Given this scenario, several additional French (and British) ships could become available for service in the Pacific. This alternative history would also substantially redraw the at-start map, as Japan presumably could not have occupied Anglo-French Indochina before the war. Singapore is a safe harbor, outside the range of Japanese land-based air.

To imitate AE, if this scenario is considered, the Japanese could start with control of Indochinese bases, with invasion forces just arrived that day from amphibious task forces.

[Terminus]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

ORIGINAL: Terminus

As for the Dutch, they were looking to buy G36s and Vindicators pre-war. Not exactly super modern, but still.

Dutch Vindicators? NICE! Stupid question--what is a G36?

An export version of the F4F-3, ordered by France IRL (and taken over by the Royal Navy as Martlet Mk I). The Dutch never got beyond looking at thinking about considering ordering some.

[Blackhorse]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

There was precisely NO chance of Spitfires going to Malaya. Think about it; autumn and early winter of 1941. The RAF needs EVERY SINGLE Spitfire on the Channel front and in the Mediterranean. More Hurricanes, yeah... The only way we can justify it is if the North African campaign is over.

And the British genuinely thought that the Brewster Buffalo was superior to any Japanese pursuit plane.

[John 3rd]

ORIGINAL: Blackhorse

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Free French? Does anyone know of ANY Free French that might--reasonably--have made it to the Pacific? We have Le Triomphant but that is it...

In June, 1940, Churchill proposed a Franco-British union to keep France in the war. The French President and Premier supported the proposal, but the Cabinet rejected it. Wikipediasuggests that if the proposal had been been made only a few days earlier, the French might well have accepted the offer.

In an alternative history, instead of waiting until the 16th, Churchill offers a union as the Germans march into Paris on June 14th. The French cabinet accepts. Mainland France is still overrun, but there is no Vichy, and the fleet sails to English and Free French (now Anglo-French) ports.

Given this scenario, several additional French (and British) ships could become available for service in the Pacific. This alternative history would also substantially redraw the at-start map, as Japan presumably could not have occupied Anglo-French Indochina before the war. Singapore is a safe harbor, outside the range of Japanese land-based air.

To imitate AE, if this scenario is considered, the Japanese could start with control of Indochinese bases, with invasion forces just arrived that day from amphibious task forces.

Did not know that! Highly interesting thoughtline...

No North African disaster between the French and British? I couldn't see anything of substantial size brought out East but a French CL or 2 plus a Division of DDs might be highly entertaining. With no French Fleet around (in Vichy) you just might be able to justify another British Capital Ship joining Force Z.

Term: A Dutch Squadron of Wildcats...hmmm...fascinating...

[WLockard]

Any chance of the P-40E getting a two stage supercharger? Surely someone wanted it, but got voted down, maybe he can sway them.

[Herrbear]

ORIGINAL: Blackhorse


In June, 1940, Churchill proposed a Franco-British union to keep France in the war. The French President and Premier supported the proposal, but the Cabinet rejected it. Wikipediasuggests that if the proposal had been been made only a few days earlier, the French might well have accepted the offer.

In an alternative history, instead of waiting until the 16th, Churchill offers a union as the Germans march into Paris on June 14th. The French cabinet accepts. Mainland France is still overrun, but there is no Vichy, and the fleet sails to English and Free French (now Anglo-French) ports.

Given this scenario, several additional French (and British) ships could become available for service in the Pacific. This alternative history would also substantially redraw the at-start map, as Japan presumably could not have occupied Anglo-French Indochina before the war. Singapore is a safe harbor, outside the range of Japanese land-based air.

To imitate AE, if this scenario is considered, the Japanese could start with control of Indochinese bases, with invasion forces just arrived that day from amphibious task forces.

I am assuming that Indo China would now be "Free French"? If not, since France was overrun would not, or could not, Indo China just be administered by Axis which would allow Japan to enter as they did.

[kfsgo]

ORIGINAL: Blackhorse

I'd love to see this, but in truth, given Japan's complete air supremacy, it is likely that any Chinese river cruiser/ gunboat would have been sunk by 12/41, even with my scenario.

An alternative possibility is to include the US Navy Yangtze River patrol gunboats, including the Panay, based at Hankow.

Any Chinese ones may have been, but as you say there's the option for the US ships, and at least three of the RN gunboats seem to have been inherited by the Chinese (and survived the war!); others were removed from the river and sent to Hong Kong, so given an earlier start you could increase that number - I guess absent editing the map so you can get light ships as far as Chungking there's not really much point, though, since 'safe harbours' will be non-existent.

ORIGINAL: Terminus

There was precisely NO chance of Spitfires going to Malaya. Think about it; autumn and early winter of 1941. The RAF needs EVERY SINGLE Spitfire on the Channel front and in the Mediterranean. More Hurricanes, yeah... The only way we can justify it is if the North African campaign is over.

If you really wanted the name you could probably swing some fairly tired Mk.Is - weren't they mostly out of non-training service by this point? Of course, at that point there's the question of what the aircraft gets you over a Hurricane, but it's an option.

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Did not know that! Highly interesting thoughtline...

No North African disaster between the French and British? I couldn't see anything of substantial size brought out East but a French CL or 2 plus a Division of DDs might be highly entertaining. With no French Fleet around (in Vichy) you just might be able to justify another British Capital Ship joining Force Z.

Much as I adore the no-Vichy idea, wouldn't the North African campaign have been over for a while by 12/41 in that case? Tunis to Tripoli is a relatively short run...