Scenario "Their Toughest Battle" by Mad Russian

[heinrich55]

Mad Russian,
I just finished Their Toughest Battle, the scenario you submitted for the battle east of Alytus on the way to Vilnius. It was quite a struggle and one commensurate with your customary high standards. I had it on normal with all the recommended settings for the scenario.

If I recall correctly, you did this for CMBB as well and it was a barn-burner there too. I think I liked this one better – it just had a better feel to it, maybe more realistic. I am sure the map had something to do with that.

When the Russians trotted out their steel monsters and I had only slingshots to counter them, the battle took on new heights of desperation.
The map looked really good and had an authentic feel to it. I really enjoyed the ground-level viewpoint. I looked up the coordinates you provided for the engagement area. It looks pretty different now but the roads are still there.

The ebb and flow of the engagement felt just right, and there were opportunities to try and set up flanking movements or put together ambushes. There were plenty of opportunities to get in trouble too, and the AI performed credibly.

The airpower was greatly appreciated, even though one of the Stuka pilots forgot his glasses and planted a bomb right on one of his halftracks. How the squad being transported escaped fiery death I don’t know, but everyone started plowing through the woods after that.

Thanks for the really great work. I will try to put together a quick AAR for the action. I didn’t have time to do up a full-blown story with photos. Sorry about that.
Heinrich505

[Mad Russian]

The CMBB scenario was named HSG B This Isn't France. You gave that scenario a rating of a 10.40.

I'm glad you think the PCO version is better.

It might be interesting to see the two scenarios compared since you've played them both.

Good Hunting.

MR

[heinrich55]

Mad Russian,
I went back and compared the two scenarios. Sorry it took me a while. Real life matters kept me busy. I’ve tried to keep the two side by side for the major considerations. I played both scenarios as German versus AI, giving the AI a computer experience bonus of +2 for CMBB and playing at normal difficulty for the PCO scenario.

Map
CMBB Version – HSG This Isn’t France
The map was fairly large and allowed for flanking maneuvers, but the forest/trees restricted this a bit. For the most part, armor had to stick to the meadows or roadways. Due to the density of the forests, there was very little armor movement through the trees as well as very little LOS through them, which had a funneling effect on movement but allowed for better ambush possibilities. The map had fewer degrees of elevation so it felt fairly level. The un-named village was well represented.

Overall it was a good map for the system, and felt fairly correct for the area being portrayed in the scenario.

PCO Version – Their Toughest Battle
The map seemed very large, with long expanses of meadows between large, forested areas. There were observable rises and falls in elevation which gave a better feel to the map and caused more natural interruption of LOS. Armor was able to push through the forests, so there was greater uncertainty as to where the enemy might suddenly appear. The sound of trees being crushed by enemy armor added to the immersion factor. LOS was possible through the forests making it very tough to set up an ambush. Positioning of my troops to intercept enemy advances was greatly affected by Fog of War. The un-named village was portrayed well.

The advantage of using actual locations through mapmaker was pretty evident, as the map had a very good, historical feel to it. Wide open areas really felt expansive, and this was due in large part by the sky effects of the game.

Units
CMBB Version – HSG This Isn’t France
The selected units were accurate for the time period and looked good. The game system allowed for transportation of AT guns and their unloading at desired locations, which is not presently allowed in PCO. Troops and weapons systems felt right, and due to the length and intensity of the battle, many completely used up their allotted ammunition assignment. Essentially they were out of the battle and where possible I moved them to safe areas of the map.

PCO Version – Their Toughest Battle
Again, available units and their strengths felt correct for the time period. The game system did allow for AT guns to appear on the map and this worked well within the system. Troops and tanks ran out of certain types of ammo for this battle as well. The difference was that other weapons systems were still available and could be specifically drawn upon with PCO. As an example, when the 20mm HE ammo expired for the PSW 222 AC and there were still soft targets that AP ammo wouldn’t work on, you could specifically choose the MG ammo and continue firing. They weren’t out of the battle and could still function.

Luftwaffe
CMBB Version – HSG This Isn’t France
The Luftwaffe played a huge part in the battle, as they did in the actual historical account. Many of the heavy Soviet tanks were targeted and knocked out by Stuka dive bombers before they had a chance to attack my light tanks.

PCO Version – Their Toughest Battle
The same can be said here. Airpower for this scenario was modeled excellently.

AI - Infantry
CMBB Version – HSG This Isn’t France
Mad Russian has a talent at getting the AI infantry to conduct itself with unbelievable ferocity in this game system. The enemy infantry was quite terrifying in their attacks and ambushes in wooded areas during this scenario. The fight for the un-named village had particularly breathtaking moments of dramatic action.

Conversely, the enemy infantry attack on my left flank was chewed up with great efficiency and never had any sort of impact.

PCO Version – Their Toughest Battle
The infantry battle didn’t seem quite as dramatic. There were several instances of close combat in the village, hand-to-hand assaults that resulted in terrible casualties. The enemy infantry rush on my left flank had me rushing assets to blunt their attack. That attack did have an impact and felt much more challenging in this scenario than the other. As I understand, there will be some revisions to infantry combat in PCO which may change this and may make things more dramatic.

AI - Armor
CMBB Version – HSG This Isn’t France
The flood of armor rushing up the center of the map was hard to contain but felt very much like that, simply a flood that caused many “mad minutes” where everyone was slugging back and forth and there was no chance to maneuver. If you tried to turn and move to cover, the sheer volume of enemy shells would hole you with a flank shot immediately. The effect of armor leaders was greatly felt in this kind of battle, and the German tanks benefitted greatly with this historical advantage. While impressive, there seemed to be some tactical sense lacking in the way the AI used their armor.

PCO Version – Their Toughest Battle
The armor seemed quite different in this scenario. Perhaps it is the fact that PCO seems to be more armor-oriented. The enemy tanks pushed forward with much more efficiency, not in a great mass rush. They got good shots on my tanks and put many out of action. The AI seemed to react well to my movements. There were opportunities for flanking and maneuver. I was able to back tanks away to more favorable positions using the withdrawal order and have a relatively good chance at success while doing so. The armor battles seemed to have more dramatic situations as opposed to the infantry.
Tank versus tank in the confines of the forests was pretty intense. LOS would flicker out as trees blocked sight. Tanks were stalking one another in the trees, vying for advantageous positions.

Infantry also did well in the woods against armor. Tactically, it seemed that two squads maneuvering could distract the enemy armor and allow a third squad to make a close assault. The enemy tanks were also alert enough to spin and address assaults, backing away to try and safely increase distance. It made for very tense and dramatic action.

Combined Arms
CMBB Version – HSG This Isn’t France
In my battle I found that combined arms tactics weren’t necessarily stressed. The battle devolved down to mainly armor taking on armor and infantry battling infantry. Artillery was a factor to support the infantry, and towards the end where the bitter struggle was taking place in the un-named hamlet, armor helped infantry in the assault. Interestingly enough, the AI was doing the same thing, with their tanks pushing between buildings to support their infantry.

PCO Version – Their Toughest Battle
I found that combined arms were essential in this scenario. I pushed armor and infantry shoulder-to-shoulder through the woods, and rolled up many enemy squad and MG positions. It was slow going because of the cover and difficulty of maneuvering tanks in the forest, but the volume of supporting fire was impressive.

The battle for the no-name village also stressed combined arms. Infantry used smoke grenades, rushed buildings that were reduced by heavy HE tank fire and halftrack MG fire, and efficiently worked their way from building to building. While not particularly dramatic, it was brutally efficient and rewarded me with capture of the hamlet with minimal casualties.

I forgot completely about my available artillery so I can’t comment about how that worked or didn’t work.


As to why I preferred the PCO version to the CMBB version, I think it came down to the wider expanse of the map and a greater feeling of immersion when down at ground level to view terrain. Also, the tank versus tank action seemed to feel smoother or had a more historical feel to it. Maneuvering for flanking attacks or backing into better shot positions seemed more tactically sound.

Tanks seemed a little more at a disadvantage for spotting infantry in the woods in PCO, which they should be.

PCO seemed to give a greater reward for tactical use of combined arms, especially in the village battle. Knowledge of your equipment strengths and weaknesses were critical. One of my better moves was to pull the Mark II light tanks away from trying to fight the enemy tanks and put them to use against the wall of Soviet infantry attacking my flank. Their 20mm HE and MG fire literally chewed up the enemy infantry.

Both scenarios provided me with a great battle and challenge. This is a nice testament to Mad Russian’s talent. In my opinion, I think PCO pulled off the historical feeling a little bit better and the AI seemed a bit more real.

Heinrich505

[oldspec4]

Excellent writeup and comparison [&o]

[Mad Russian]

Looks to me like you made good use of the time you had available. The comparison is interesting in one aspect, your view point of the PCO map having a better feel than a CMBB map.

Map Maker using actual terrain makes a lot of difference to me. There are reasons that battles are fought where they are. Why the defender chose that exact spot to defend or the attacker to attack.

Considering that the CMBB version of this scenario earned a 10.4 from you and you think the PCO version is better than that I'm very happy with how each of them played for you.

I appreciate you taking the time and effort to share your views on the scenario and I very much look forward to your future AAR's and comparisons.

Good Hunting.

MR