You can forget about defending behind rivers

This new stand alone release based on the legendary War in the Pacific from 2 by 3 Games adds significant improvements and changes to enhance game play, improve realism, and increase historical accuracy. With dozens of new features, new art, and engine improvements, War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition brings you the most realistic and immersive WWII Pacific Theater wargame ever!

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RE: You can forget about defending behind rivers

Post by crsutton »

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: FatR

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Another trick of the game in China is that when an army faces a river crossing, you can send just a single unit across.  It, of course, faces the auto-shock attack.  But when the rest of the stack crosses later they don't auto-shock attack.  It seems that the first unit has achieved a bridgehead negating the river crossing effects.  This probably shouldn't be the case since it results in obvious inequities I don't think anyone envisioned.

Ah, the war in China.
Under the latest patch and hotfix this doesn't work. A river crossing into enemy-occupied square triggers a shock attack, even if you already have units there.


not always

No, I think it depends on the experience level of the crossing units. I have never been able to suceed at this with a Chinese unit-even crossing a green hexside. But you would expect a low exp unit to muck this sort of thing up most of the time. River crossing were pretty difficult things to do. You are right in that it probably be a mix of units affected.

But I am sure the land team will take this into consideration.

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RE: You can forget about defending behind rivers

Post by viberpol »

ORIGINAL: FatR

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Another trick of the game in China is that when an army faces a river crossing, you can send just a single unit across.  It, of course, faces the auto-shock attack.  But when the rest of the stack crosses later they don't auto-shock attack.  It seems that the first unit has achieved a bridgehead negating the river crossing effects.  This probably shouldn't be the case since it results in obvious inequities I don't think anyone envisioned.

Ah, the war in China.
Under the latest patch and hotfix this doesn't work. A river crossing into enemy-occupied square triggers a shock attack, even if you already have units there.

The new rule says: "50. Gameplay Change: Change to river assault – reversion to original rule - when
crossing a river into a hex all units entering should shock attack in the turn they
cross, unless 1/3 of the unmodified AV of the defenders has already crossed from that hex side
in a previous turn."

This turn I've got an assault triggered by a division sent to aid the defense.
I'd be ok with shock attack if crossing into enemy occupied hex. But I owned the hex.
I own it for months!

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force Assault Value = 652
Defending force Assault Value = 1752
Japanese adjusted assault: 0
Allied adjusted defense: 3490
Japanese assault odds: 1 to 99


Why the crossing trigger shock attack if the hex is mine?
Should it work like that?
It's not only my division that is wrecked... I am really devastated... [:(]
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RE: You can forget about defending behind rivers

Post by HansBolter »

ORIGINAL: treespider

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Uh, I am not seeing that. He crossed the river in the face of 50,000 Chinese with about seven divisions worth of troops and lost "2" combat squads........

In addition to the 199 disabled squads - which also represent casualties....


In my opinion this has always been one of the greatest shortcomings of the game engine.

Disabled/disrupted does not constitute a casualty.

Casualty = KIA, WIA, MIA

Disabled squads could very well be available for use the very next day.

Time and time again in China one sees Japanese shock attacks at very, very poor odds that result in more REAL casualties to the defender than to the attacker.

Every time I have brought one of those examples to the forum the responses I have received have been along the lines of "but look at how many more attacking squads were disabled compared to the defending squads".

Disabled isn't what matters most, squads actually LOST is what matters most. A shock attack at 1-10 odds or less should NOT result in more actually lost defending squads than attacking squads. The fact that it often does should be an indicator that it isn't working well.
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RE: You can forget about defending behind rivers

Post by Sardaukar »

This has been explained by Devs few times...
 
Casualties depend A LOT about firepower values of different participating units. Don't just stare at Assault Values, they just give generic overview. Chinese squads, for example, have very poor weaponry compared to Japanese and have difficulties to inflict "real" casualties. Same applies with support weapons, where also range come to effect in combat calculations (weapon may have insufficient range for that combat resolution).
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RE: You can forget about defending behind rivers

Post by Sardaukar »

ORIGINAL: viberpol

ORIGINAL: FatR

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Another trick of the game in China is that when an army faces a river crossing, you can send just a single unit across.  It, of course, faces the auto-shock attack.  But when the rest of the stack crosses later they don't auto-shock attack.  It seems that the first unit has achieved a bridgehead negating the river crossing effects.  This probably shouldn't be the case since it results in obvious inequities I don't think anyone envisioned.

Ah, the war in China.
Under the latest patch and hotfix this doesn't work. A river crossing into enemy-occupied square triggers a shock attack, even if you already have units there.

The new rule says: "50. Gameplay Change: Change to river assault – reversion to original rule - when
crossing a river into a hex all units entering should shock attack in the turn they
cross, unless 1/3 of the unmodified AV of the defenders has already crossed from that hex side in a previous turn."

This turn I've got an assault triggered by a division sent to aid the defense.
I'd be ok with shock attack if crossing into enemy occupied hex. But I owned the hex.
I own it for moths!

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force Assault Value = 652
Defending force Assault Value = 1752
Japanese adjusted assault: 0
Allied adjusted defense: 3490
Japanese assault odds: 1 to 99


Why the crossing trigger shock attack if the hex is mine?
Should it work like that?
It's not only my division that is wrecked... I am really devastated... [:(]

It's not about owning the HEX..it is about owning the HEX SIDE. Check if enemy owned the hex side you used for crossing. This can still trigger shock attack, even if you owned the hex.
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RE: You can forget about defending behind rivers

Post by FatR »

I think this is a bug, crsutton. Playing as Japanese, I've faced mandatory shock attacks on crossing every time I've tried to send a force bigger than the previous one through the same hexside.
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RE: You can forget about defending behind rivers

Post by viberpol »

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

It's not about owning the HEX..it is about owning the HEX SIDE. Check if enemy owned the hex side you used for crossing. This can still trigger shock attack, even if you owned the hex.

I own almost all hex sides too.
Based on simple logic IMHO its seems a bit weird that now the crossing into friendly hex triggers the shock attack.
I think that if I own the hex, I've got total control of the place and the crossing is secured.
Creating bridgeheads and getting into an enemy occupied hex is one thing, normal troops movement in secured hex is something different. Should it trigger the shock attack if my troops are simply moving on a bridge to fill the long owned trench line somewhere 40 miles away?
Some losses from long range enemy bombardment attack ok, but a shock attack and annihilation of a whole division? [&:]

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RE: You can forget about defending behind rivers

Post by Sardaukar »

Looks bit strange then indeed. But maybe enemy has overwhelming superiority in that hex...but if you own the hex and are moving in from hex side you own, it might be bug. Or "feature". [8D]
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RE: You can forget about defending behind rivers

Post by crsutton »

This was a problem that I and others complained about early in the game process, it caused a lot of pain for me in China but has been corrected. Now, there are I believe other factors involved. Perhaps there is a die roll involved as well but the devs have to confirm that. The number of troops in the hex compared to the enemy number is a factor and as I recall experience matters as well. Yes, I do think that control of the hexside should be a factor but that does not seem to be the case and has not been from day one. It may not be just troop numbers but devices as well. Ark, you are also crossing with infantry that have poor AT assets into a hex where I have a massive number of medium tanks. Is that a factor, I don't know? It is all a mystery to me.

However, the original problem (and purpose of this post) where a massive stack could cross a river hexside at one time with only one unit making the shock attack and the rest getting off free was not a bug but just a "not working as intended" problem and was quickly fixed. This is a different issue and the designers would have to answer it.

My experience is that I am usually able to reinforce over a river hexside but I never try it with poor quality troops (Chinese) as that usually ends in disaster for me.
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RE: You can forget about defending behind rivers

Post by Chris21wen »

As much as I love this game I've never been happy with the way ground combat occurs, actually just about anything to do with LCUs full stop although the beta's are making some improvements.
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RE: You can forget about defending behind rivers

Post by crsutton »

This was a problem that I and others complained about early in the game process, it caused a lot of pain for me in China but has been corrected. Now, there are I believe other factors involved. Perhaps there is a die roll involved as well but the devs have to confirm that. The number of troops in the hex compared to the enemy number is a factor and as I recall experience matters as well. Yes, I do think that control of the hexside should be a factor but that does not seem to be the case and has not been from day one. It may not be just troop numbers but devices as well. Ark, you are also crossing with infantry that have poor AT assets into a hex where I have a massive number of medium tanks. Is that a factor, I don't know? It is all a mystery to me.

I should say that we have to be careful about what we assume. The game is not detailed enough to consider where in a hex the defenders are. A hex is 50 miles or so wide but that does not mean that the game system knows more than that. Units are either in a hex or not. As far as I know there is no assumption of where in the hex. The lines could be 40 miles from your crossing point or one mile-it does not matter as the system only knows that there are attacker and defenders in the hex and a unit is crossing the river. It is too abstract for any other consideration. The game designers had to work up a combat system that would work as best it can for that one hex. I doubt it could be fined tuned any better. There are parts of the land combat system that drive me crazy but this is a simulation that takes place over a massive map. There is bound to be compromises that have to take place a a certain level.

However, the original problem (and purpose of this post) where a massive stack could cross a river hexside at one time with only one unit making the shock attack and the rest getting off free was not a bug but just a "not working as intended" problem and was quickly fixed. This is a different issue and the designers would have to answer it.

My experience is that I am usually able to reinforce over a river hexside but I never try it with poor quality troops (Chinese) as that usually ends in disaster for me.
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RE: You can forget about defending behind rivers

Post by HansBolter »

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

This has been explained by Devs few times...

Casualties depend A LOT about firepower values of different participating units. Don't just stare at Assault Values, they just give generic overview. Chinese squads, for example, have very poor weaponry compared to Japanese and have difficulties to inflict "real" casualties. Same applies with support weapons, where also range come to effect in combat calculations (weapon may have insufficient range for that combat resolution).


Yes, that's true.

It is also true that it has been explained back to the devs that it is the poor manner in which combat results are reported that leads to consternation on the part of the players.

Combat reports show raw and adjusted combat odds based on the AV of every unit in the hex when more often than not only a portion of the units are participating. What it should be showing us is the firepower value ratios of only the units participating in the combat. This would give us a more clear understanding of the outcome.

Most wargamers expect combat odds to count for something. Simply telling us to ignore them and read between the lines of data that isn't provided to us in the combat report has proved to be problematic as posts descrying the "odd" and or "inexplicable" combat results keep cropping up regularly.
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RE: You can forget about defending behind rivers

Post by Alfred »

Under the current river crossing rules, there is no such thing as owning a hex. What matters is the direction of the crossing.

(1) The side sending troops across the river is the "attacking" side.

(2) The side which is not sending troops across the river is the "defending" side.

(3) The side sending troops across the river will always shock attack unless it already holds a bridgehead across the river.

(4) A bridgehead is established when the side with the inferior assault value, has an assault value equal to at least 1/3 of the assault value of the superior side's assault value.

(5) To take advantage of the existence of the bridgehead, the additional troops crossing must enter the bridgehead from the same cross river direction as the troops already in the beachhead had previously crossed the river.

How this operates in practic is as follows. For the purposes of simplifying the explanation, casualties are deemed to have been only temporary disablements, all of which had become combat ready in time for the next action.

(a) Japan positions 1000 AV of troops behind a river.

(b) On the other side of the river, due south, there are 1000 AV of Allied troops.

(c) Subsequently the Allied player sends, due north, 200 AV of troops across.

(d) The Allied force sent due north across the river shock attacks because it has no bridgehead.

(e) Four days after the initial crossing, the Allied player sends additional forces amounting to 150 AV due north across the river. This follow up force also shock attacks because the Allies still have no bridgehead across the river. The defender (=Japan) has 1000 AV and the attacker (=Allies) only has 200 AV which is less than 1/3 of the defending size.

(f) Another four days pass and the remaining Allied 650 AV is sent due north across the river. This time there is no shock attack because a bridgehead exists. The defender has 100 AV and the aggregated Allied force previously sent amounts to 350 AV which is more than 1/3 the size of the defender.

(g) If the Allied player had not crossed the river as described in (f) above but had instead sent 650 AV across the river from the south east, a shock attack would have ensued because the condition outlined in point (5) above had not been complied with.


It is therefore quite wrong to assert that river lines provide no defensive benefits. They do but the benefit can be considerably reduced with an appropriately structured attacking force.

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RE: You can forget about defending behind rivers

Post by crsutton »

ORIGINAL: Alfred



(4) A bridgehead is established when the side with the inferior assault value, has an assault value equal to at least 1/3 of the assault value of the superior side's assault value.


And, is it the adjusted assault value or it it the initial assault value? This would make a big difference as the adjusted AV of an attacking unit can be greatly reduced when attacking units with superior devices such as an Allied 44 division or a large tank force.
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RE: You can forget about defending behind rivers

Post by Alfred »

To the best of my recollection, the devs have never definitively stated the relationship.

What we know is that (a) the defenders AV is unmodified and (b) page 194 of the manual states the attacker suffers disruption just from the act of crossing a river. This would suggest that for the purposes of determining beachheads + shock attack trigger points, the defenders unadjusted AV = the defending AV, and the attacking AV is not modified by future firepower outcomes but is reduced by additional disruption.

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RE: You can forget about defending behind rivers

Post by viberpol »

ORIGINAL: crsutton

ORIGINAL: Alfred
(4) A bridgehead is established when the side with the inferior assault value, has an assault value equal to at least 1/3 of the assault value of the superior side's assault value.
And, is it the adjusted assault value or it it the initial assault value? This would make a big difference as the adjusted AV of an attacking unit can be greatly reduced when attacking units with superior devices such as an Allied 44 division or a large tank force.

[&:]
That makes me scratching my head what we really know how to play the game... [;)]
ORIGINAL: viberpol
ORIGINAL: Sardaukar
It's not about owning the HEX..it is about owning the HEX SIDE. Check if enemy owned the hex side you used for crossing. This can still trigger shock attack, even if you owned the hex.

I own almost all hex sides too.
Based on simple logic IMHO its seems a bit weird that now the crossing into friendly hex triggers the shock attack.
I think that if I own the hex, I've got total control of the place and the crossing is secured.
Creating bridgeheads and getting into an enemy occupied hex is one thing, normal troops movement in secured hex is something different. Should it trigger the shock attack if my troops are simply moving on a bridge to fill the long owned trench line somewhere 40 miles away?
Some losses from long range enemy bombardment attack ok, but a shock attack and annihilation of a whole division? [&:]

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Here in the patch thread fb.asp?m=2892098
I suggested a different view:

Creating bridgeheads and getting into an enemy occupied hex is one thing, normal troops movement in secured hex is something different. Should it trigger the shock attack if my troops are simply moving on a bridge to fill the long owned trench line somewhere 40 miles away?
Some losses from long range enemy bombardment attack ok, but a shock attack and annihilation of a whole division?

If in your view hex control doesn't matter during river crossing, maybe there should be some check of who owns more hexsides of the contested hex? (in metaphore -- who has more land secured, check if the forces there are not encircled etc.; like 0 - 2 shock attack, 3 bombardment attack, 4 - 6 no punishing attack at all)?
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RE: You can forget about defending behind rivers

Post by Alfred »

ORIGINAL: viberpol

ORIGINAL: crsutton

ORIGINAL: Alfred
(4) A bridgehead is established when the side with the inferior assault value, has an assault value equal to at least 1/3 of the assault value of the superior side's assault value.
And, is it the adjusted assault value or it it the initial assault value? This would make a big difference as the adjusted AV of an attacking unit can be greatly reduced when attacking units with superior devices such as an Allied 44 division or a large tank force.

[&:]
That makes me scratching my head what we really know how to play the game... [;)]
ORIGINAL: viberpol
ORIGINAL: Sardaukar
It's not about owning the HEX..it is about owning the HEX SIDE. Check if enemy owned the hex side you used for crossing. This can still trigger shock attack, even if you owned the hex.

I own almost all hex sides too.
Based on simple logic IMHO its seems a bit weird that now the crossing into friendly hex triggers the shock attack.
I think that if I own the hex, I've got total control of the place and the crossing is secured.
Creating bridgeheads and getting into an enemy occupied hex is one thing, normal troops movement in secured hex is something different. Should it trigger the shock attack if my troops are simply moving on a bridge to fill the long owned trench line somewhere 40 miles away?
Some losses from long range enemy bombardment attack ok, but a shock attack and annihilation of a whole division? [&:]

Image

Here in the patch thread fb.asp?m=2892098
I suggested a different view:

Creating bridgeheads and getting into an enemy occupied hex is one thing, normal troops movement in secured hex is something different. Should it trigger the shock attack if my troops are simply moving on a bridge to fill the long owned trench line somewhere 40 miles away?
Some losses from long range enemy bombardment attack ok, but a shock attack and annihilation of a whole division?

If in your view hex control doesn't matter during river crossing, maybe there should be some check of who owns more hexsides of the contested hex? (in metaphore -- who has more land secured, check if the forces there are not encircled etc.; like 0 - 2 shock attack, 3 bombardment attack, 4 - 6 no punishing attack at all)?

That is all nice and interesting but getting back to what the game actually is...

You do not "own" the hex. Heck, you don't even "own" hexsides which are in your colour. Why you keep on saying you do totally escapes me.

There is a considerable difference between "owning" and "controlling" a hex/hexside. The former is a classical WITP concept which no longer applies in AE. The difference is well illustrated when you look at a hex which has forces from both sides present. Then neither side controls the hex, it is a "contested" hex but control of the 6 hexsides might be shared between the two sides.

When you talk about "normal troops movement in secured hex", you are certainly not talking about AE. There is no "secured hex". It is a contested hex. You have no basis for saying that the long owned trenchline is 40 miles away. It could just as easily be only 40 yards away. Nor do you have any basis for assuming the frontline is marked by a solid unbroken trenchline, it could just as easily be a very porous line deliniated by widely dispersed recently built foxholes on your side but extensive field fortifications built over a period of months on the other side. That is what you get with abstraction.

To have as a requirement that a bridgehead is 1/3 the size of the other side is in my view a very sensible approach given the limitations of the game engine. With that size, it fairly represents a lodgement of some reasonable depth across the river and one that allows a degree of safety in marching troops across your "bridge" and allows you the luxury of determining when you will launch an attack out of the bridgehead.

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RE: You can forget about defending behind rivers

Post by viberpol »

ORIGINAL: Alfred
You do not "own" the hex. Heck, you don't even "own" hexsides which are in your colour. Why you keep on saying you do totally escapes me.

There is a considerable difference between "owning" and "controlling" a hex/hexside. The former is a classical WITP concept which no longer applies in AE. The difference is well illustrated when you look at a hex which has forces from both sides present. Then neither side controls the hex, it is a "contested" hex but control of the 6 hexsides might be shared between the two sides.

Erm... [&:] Now I do not understand what you're saying... [:)]
If you take a look at the attached map before and after, you see a small "J" in the middle of the hex.
That's a hex base ownership symbol.
From the manual: shortcut [W] Display Hex/Hexside Ownership

4.2.4.5.
Hexes are comprised of seven components – the six hexsides and the area inside the hexsides
called the hex. A hexside is not shared with an adjacent hex; the adjacent hex has its own six
hexsides. One side or the other or neither can control each of these components.
The last side to have solely occupied the hex establishes control of a hex. Control of a hexside
is established by the last side to have an LCU cross a hexside to enter or leave a hex.


Maybe you mistake my post with previous one of Ross that I added to?
You see, I play Japan.
So 'J' says I control the hex. What's more 9 out of 12 inner and outer hexsides are in my colors, so why'are you saying I do not have it secured?
My forces defended the hex East of Sibolga for several weeks and the enemy entered it from Sibolga.
In view of manual, I think it's safe to say I control the hex.


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RE: You can forget about defending behind rivers

Post by Alfred »

viberpol,

And the moment you leave a hex you lose control of the hex itself. Compare your before and after screenshots and look at the hex due west of Tandjoe. In the before shot, when you had a Japanese unit in it, you see a white "J". In the after shot, that same hex which no longer has a Japanese unit in it, no longer has a white "J". Now I believe that you play using the latest Beta and it is possible that as part of michaelm introducing the supply chain identification, a little graphical glitch has been introduced and contested hexes no longer display both a white "A" and "J". I can assure you that previously a contested hex would display both a white "A" and a white "J".

The part of the manual you have quoted has not been written precisely enough. But you are not reading it correctly anyway. You highlighted the first sentence of the second paragraph of s.4.2.4.5. You cannot read that highlighted sentence (which I grant you is not as precisely written as it should be) without also highlighting the last sentence of the preceding paragraph. That preceding sentence is indispensable for properly placing in context the sentence of the succeeding paragraph. IOW a hex can be controlled by:
  • Japan
  • Allies
  • No One

As a matter of contruction, the sentence you highlighted only makes sense when read as meaning a hex not controlled by anyone falls under the control of the side only the last unit which moves into the hex and such control remains only for as long as that side maintains a unit in the hex. Once both sides have units in the same hex it becomes a contested hex.

To further explain how this works, you have to take into account the control of the hex sides. If you move a single unit into a vacant hex (=one which no one controls) you not only now control the hex but you also now control all 6 hexsides facing inwards to the hex. This is accomplished even though the unit moved into the vacant hex through only one hexside. When the enemy moves a single unit into the hex controlled by you, you now have a contested hex plus you now only control 5 of the 6 hexsides. That is the fundamental difference which arises from the game concept of "control".

If you still don't believe me, then read very closely s.8.3.1.2 of the manual, in particular the second sentence in paragraph 4 on page 192 which clearly states that once the Allied player has moved his unit out of hex "A" into hex "B", then no one controls the now vacant hex "A" because no one has a unit present anymore in hex "A".

In any case this is not a particularly germane discussion to the thread's basic issue which is about river crossings engendering a shock attack. This is because I reiterate, for the purposes of determining whether a shock attack will ensue when sending troops across a river, what matters are the points I listed in post #33. They come down to the side crossing the river is the attacker, the size of the bridgehead and the direction from which the crossing is made. In none of those does control of the hex matter at all.

I understand that english is not your native language and that even native english speakers can misread the manual. Nonetheless the manual, when properly read and approached as a lawyer would a legal document or statute, does generally provide the right information. It just means that a lot of painstaking attention to detail is required.[:)]

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RE: You can forget about defending behind rivers

Post by crsutton »

Ark, I agree with you 100% that an owned hexside should allow crossing and reinforcing "most of the time" However, we have been playing our game for over a year and a half now-and this has happened to me in China many times, costing me much misery. And...you are just now getting around to complaining about it? [:D]
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