AI for MWIF Netherlands

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: peskpesk

ORIGINAL: composer99

I would recommend that the Netherlands set up as many naval and air units as possible in Dutch Guyana (I believe some convoys are already being set up there) in the event of an Axis DoW. Also, I don't think the setups above will respect the requirement for 1/2 the Dutch land/air units to set up in the Netherlands with all that airforce in

My reasoning is that, in 1941-1942, if the Japanese are part of the DoW, any air units based in Telok Betong are almost certainly going to be overrun and destroyed, and whatever's left over will have to flee.

To overrun Telok Betong, all the Japanese have to do is land a division there during the surprise impulse since (a) Dutch/NEI units in Batavia exert no ZoC over the straits, and (b) the notional is -1 factor (i.e. 0 factors) when surprised.

Thanks, I missed the straits zoc, so if we place the plane in Jokyakarta (for later rebase) it's safer.

Maybe I missed something, I thought land/air and naval units was included in "At least half a minor country’s initial units must set up in its home country"

I think that you're right thinking this.
**********************************
19.4 Minor country units
Setting up
When a minor country aligns with you, set up its initial units immediately. You must set up in hexes controlled by that minor. At least half a minor country’s initial units must set up in its home country.
**********************************
It does not limit to the air & land unit. naval units are included indeed.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: peskpesk
Yes, it’s an option. But it’s harder to keep in supply. Units in Sumatra and Java have the chance of supply from the “backdoor” East Indian Ocean. To see a CP survive in South China Sea is not so likely. Of curse the Japanese still need to ground strike the unit…

Also, by seting up in Borneo, you only interdict 1 oil, which leaves 3 oil to be taken as freebies by the Japanese if he elects to invade directly the oil wells in the first impulse because he is in deep need of oil and will take Batavia next. Setting up in Palembang you interdict 2 oil wells, and this is a city (supply garanteed for NEI units) and it is a swamp.
With such a setup, I'd invade the 2 oil spots for the gain of the 3 oil resources (I invade the Palembang one in the adjacent forest hex, and then I walk into Palembang) wth 2 DIV for 2 auto invasions, and I also invade Java with 1-2 corps for an easy conquest of Batavia defended by only 1 corps or nothing.

[peskpesk]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: peskpesk
Yes, it’s an option. But it’s harder to keep in supply. Units in Sumatra and Java have the chance of supply from the “backdoor” East Indian Ocean. To see a CP survive in South China Sea is not so likely. Of curse the Japanese still need to ground strike the unit…

Also, by seting up in Borneo, you only interdict 1 oil, which leaves 3 oil to be taken as freebies by the Japanese if he elects to invade directly the oil wells in the first impulse because he is in deep need of oil and will take Batavia next. Setting up in Palembang you interdict 2 oil wells, and this is a city (supply garanteed for NEI units) and it is a swamp.
With such a setup, I'd invade the 2 oil spots for the gain of the 3 oil resources (I invade the Palembang one in the adjacent forest hex, and then I walk into Palembang) wth 2 DIV for 2 auto invasions, and I also invade Java with 1-2 corps for an easy conquest of Batavia defended by only 1 corps or nothing.

I agree. Having a unit on Borneo is not included in the preferred setup.

[brian brian]

I'm not a fan of when the 4-3 Dutch INF gets placed in the NEI, but it is a legal move and at times a smart one. When it is fairly clear that an attack on the Netherlands is the only German objective for the _turn_ (not just that impulse), it is worth doing, especially if the British lift has already been committed for the turn. How to decide this? Mostly based on the amount of force the Germans have in the west. In Sep/Oct 39 they might deploy enough for an operation in the Netherlands only, without enough to continue on into Belgium. It can be even more clear when it is Nov/Dec 39 and the rare clear weather impulse pops up; also on that turn it is much less likely the Germans will risk drawing potential high-value 1939 USE chits for a DoW on Belgium when the weather is so likely to shut down subsequent impulses.

After deploying the SUB and as many CP as possible out of harm's way overseas, the Dutch should also split any naval forces required to stay in the Netherlands betwen the two ports to minimize German port strikes.

A lot of players put great stakes into the British reinforcing Rotterdam and a number of strategems on both sides revolve around this, such as the Germans doing a division invasion of the hex from the North Sea. Over time I have begun to prefer to leave the Netherlands neutral until the Japanese attack via using the Paratroopers against Belgium in Mar/Apr 40. Not giving the CW 10 Dutch CP keeps their convoy lines much tighter early in the war. A converse to that is when planning a Sea Lion, it can be nice to sucker the CW into putting some units into Rotterdam where you may be able to pin them with Stukas or artillery, or at least draw out the RAF to try and start attritioning their fighters; it can also be possible to cut their supply in the North Sea with Axis naval air whereas in France a smart BEF will have supply coming through the Bay of Biscay. But I think the value of the 10 CP outweigh this.

It is not completely uncommon for the Germans to not have the forces needed to overrun the 4-3 INF when it is deployed forward on the resource hex, and it can really flummox a German commander who is worried about a CW landing in Rotterdam.

In the NEI, I don't think it is worth defending Palembang. It is hard to take on it's own already, and as the Japanese I would be glad to see a unit wasted there instead of Batavia. If Batavia is easier to take, the unit in Palembang just surrenders all the sooner. 2 oil is important for the Japanese, but they generally launch war in the South China Sea with enough savings to cover a turn of not owning the oil hexes. (Same basic thinking on Borneo too, but if the CW wants to sacrifice some blocking units, preferrably white-print/elite, that can be worthwhile though I would rather have two of them in Singapore with the Royal Engineers and maybe a landward fort).

Note however in the event of a late 41/early 42 initial attack on the Netherlands, the 4-3 INF can easily be put of supply as the NEI is not it's home country on the first turn, and might not be on the second turn either if the NEI lasts that long since Dutch Guiana will now be a feature in every game of MWiF.

[composer99]

I would probably rather save the Dutch sealift over the SUB, as the Germans can't portstrike the sub if it is in a major port, and you can never have too much sealift, even if it is a 3-3 TRS.

[brian brian]

very true that. the SUB and the TRS automatically go to Dutch Guiana, or maybe the NEI if it is 39-early 40. the Dutch TRS has issues transporting CW TERRitorials though, so it is better for duty in the Atlantic, freeing up a regular CW TRS to move a few TERRs around on garrison duty.

[peskpesk]

A try to summaries the comments so far for the Netherlands AI setup.

Threats to guard against:
…
* Threat of Blitzing over lake Zuider Zee
…

Threat of Blitzing over lake Zuider Zee

IF Dutch land unit is adjacent to lake Zuider Zee AND weather is Snow or Blizzard AND at least one of the GE/IT units that can attack the Dutch land unit is an ARM, MECH or HQ-A

THEN

Threat of Blitzing over lake Zuider Zee


When a setup is used

* The Border defence
Is consider to be used when A, B, C, D, F, G

A) No Threat of paradrop on Rotterdam/Amsterdam
B) No Threat of invasion on Rotterdam/Amsterdam
C) War with GE/IT
D) Chance of intervention from controlling power
E) No Threat of enemy land units in Belgium
F) No Threat of Blitzing over lake Zuider Zee
G) No Threat of having the land unit disrupted OR (Threat of having the land unit disrupted AND at least one of the GE/IT units that can attack the Dutch land unit is an ARM, MECH or HQ-A AND after a possible overrun of the Dutch land unit can neither the overrunning unit/stack or any other GE/IT unit can reach Amsterdam)

[composer99]

There will not be a threat of blitzing over the frozen lake in Blizzard as the terrain costs in Blizzard are too high for breakthroughs. Snow will still allow that possibility, though.

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: composer99

There will not be a threat of blitzing over the frozen lake in Blizzard as the terrain costs in Blizzard are too high for breakthroughs. Snow will still allow that possibility, though.

The cost to advance into the hex during Blizzard is just one MP if you advance along a railway and play with the option "Railway movement bonus". With those conditions you can blitz into Amsterdam over Zuider Zee during Blizzard.

-Orm

[composer99]

Gah! Optional rules I never play with (and never will, unless my opponents foolishly let me be Germany ) strike again.

[KosMic]

One issue that needs to be considered is the setup if and when two countries are declared on simultaneously, in particular the Netherlands and Belgium. A good joint setup may be different from good individual setups for each country, depending on the tactical considerations. This may also be relevant with other nations (Iraq/Iran, Greece/Yugoslavia/Bulgaria/Rumania, etc.)

[Dr Deo]

Most I've read about the Netherlands in various threads in the forum is that Germany sometimes holds the DOW until the Japan DOW, in order to keep the NL CP from CW in 39/40. If Japan declares war on the US, NL, CW and FR simultaneously, then it could be a good move. However, if Japan decides to go for CW only first and the Axis therefore wants to minimise US entry, the following could happen:

1) Germany DOWs NL.
2) SU aligns NL.
3) Now Japan needs to DOW Joe in order to get the NEI oil...

Of course, this requires SU to be active and that usually means they have their hands full in the West already, but in some cases it might be worth it. E.g. if Japan is totally unprepared for a Siberian war and/or SU managed to break the Nazi-Soviet pact early while Germany was fishing in the Dyle, so the war in the west isn't that bad.

Another possibility I haven't seen discussed is if NL is in fact DOWed by Germany early and aligned by CW. CW sets up the 4-3 INF in Palembang. When the JP DOW draws near, the NEI is reinforced by expendable CW troops on Palembang and/or the other oil wells. Japan will not be able to dislodge all of them in one turn without considerable effort, so any remaining units will destroy the oil wells in the victory check step. Voilà, the IJN stays in port! However, reading the fine print in the RAW again I realise now that oil well destruction requires the units to be in supply... A competent Japanese player will have made sure they aren't, so I guess it's not such a good idea after all...

[Extraneous]

ORIGINAL: Dr Deo

Most I've read about the Netherlands in various threads in the forum is that Germany sometimes holds the DOW until the Japan DOW, in order to keep the NL CP from CW in 39/40. If Japan declares war on the US, NL, CW and FR simultaneously, then it could be a good move. However, if Japan decides to go for CW only first and the Axis therefore wants to minimise US entry, the following could happen:

1) Germany DOWs NL.
2) SU aligns NL.
3) Now Japan needs to DOW Joe in order to get the NEI oil...

Of course, this requires SU to be active and that usually means they have their hands full in the West already, but in some cases it might be worth it. E.g. if Japan is totally unprepared for a Siberian war and/or SU managed to break the Nazi-Soviet pact early while Germany was fishing in the Dyle, so the war in the west isn't that bad.

Another possibility I haven't seen discussed is if NL is in fact DOWed by Germany early and aligned by CW. CW sets up the 4-3 INF in Palembang. When the JP DOW draws near, the NEI is reinforced by expendable CW troops on Palembang and/or the other oil wells. Japan will not be able to dislodge all of them in one turn without considerable effort, so any remaining units will destroy the oil wells in the victory check step. Voilà, the IJN stays in port! However, reading the fine print in the RAW again I realise now that oil well destruction requires the units to be in supply... A competent Japanese player will have made sure they aren't, so I guess it's not such a good idea after all...

The extra oil if not embargoed.

ORIGINAL: WIFFE_RAW-7.0.pdf ~ 5.1 Trade agreements
Netherlands
The Netherlands must supply Japan with 2 oil resources a turn. This continues until Japan is at war with either the Netherlands or the Commonwealth, or the US embargoes oil sales to Japan (see 13.3.2, entry option 31).

A neutral Netherlands must supply the CW with all its remaining oil.

Other things for the Japanese to consider…

ORIGINAL: Wifchart.pdf ~ 13.3.3 US ENTRY ACTIONS
33. Japan declares war on the CW, France or Netherlands (Ja) 3 & 5 (two US entry chits and 80% chance of a third chit)

3 The USA also picks 1 extra chit a turn for each action (except conquests by surrender). It must go into the marked entry pool.
5 Rolled once per city, major power, neutral minor country or search.

[Dr Deo]

Well, in both cases I'm assuming Japan is about the declare on CW, so the agreement will be off then anyway.

The Japan DOW on NL entry action is exactly why it's better to have Germany DOW instead of Nippon, but if it happens late in the game it's viable under some circumstances to have SU align NL instead of CW, to force JP into taking US entry hits to get the oil.

[Extraneous]

ORIGINAL: Dr Deo

Well, in both cases I'm assuming Japan is about the declare on CW, so the agreement will be off then anyway.

The Japan DOW on NL entry action is exactly why it's better to have Germany DOW instead of Nippon, but if it happens late in the game it's viable under some circumstances to have SU align NL instead of CW, to force JP into taking US entry hits to get the oil.

DOW CW two US entry chits and 80% chance of a third chit.
DOW NL two US entry chits and 80% chance of a third chit.

The USA also picks 2 extra chits a turn.

Very soon japan would be at war with the USA as well.

[Dr Deo]

That's exactly what I'm saying... If Germany declares war on NL first, then Japan won't have to DOW NL separately and won't suffer the extra US entry chits! However, that also gives the Allies the opportunity to align NL with Soviet Union if it would cause problems for Japan, but in 95% of the cases I'd say it would align with CW anyway.

[Extraneous]

ORIGINAL: Dr Deo

That's exactly what I'm saying... If Germany declares war on NL first, then Japan won't have to DOW NL separately and won't suffer the extra US entry chits! However, that also gives the Allies the opportunity to align NL with Soviet Union if it would cause problems for Japan, but in 95% of the cases I'd say it would align with CW anyway.

ORIGINAL: WIFFE_RAW-7.0.pdf ~ Incomplete conquest

Now choose a new home country for the units of the conquered home country. Conquered Commonwealth home countries can pick another Commonwealth home country (e.g. if Britain is conquered, you could pick Canada as the new home country for British units). Other conquered major power home countries (and Commonwealth if you want), can pick any aligned minor home country. Conquered minor countries can pick either any home country of their controlling major power or any home country that the minor country itself controls.

Netherlands East Indies aligned minor country of the Netherlands.

Therefore:

Germany DoW’s and conquers the Netherlands. This would be an incomplete conquest since the Netherlands has an aligned minor country, the Netherlands East Indies.

The Netherlands then has a choice of it’s new home:

(1) The home country that the minor country itself controls (in this case the NEI); or
(2) The home country of their controlling major power (in this case the USSR).

The Netherlands is still at war with Germany.


Now, If the Japanese choose to invade the NEI they will have to DoW” the controlling major power (in this example the USSR).

ORIGINAL: Wifchart.pdf ~ 13.3.3 US ENTRY ACTIONS
9. Japan declares war on USSR (Ja) (70% chance of a US entry chit)

This would allow the Japanese to circumvent US ENTRY ACTION: 33. Japan declares war on the CW, France or Netherlands because…

ORIGINAL: WIFFE_RAW-7.0.pdf ~ 9.2 How to declare war

You can’t declare war on:

• A minor country that is already controlled by a major power on the other side. However, a declaration of war on a major power is also a declaration of war on every minor country aligned to that major power.

A this point the Japanese should DoW the USSR for the 70% chance of a US entry chit. The USSR would now face a 2 front war and the Japanese would gain the NEI oil. And when the Japanese are ready…

ORIGINAL: Wifchart.pdf ~ 13.3.3 US ENTRY ACTIONS
2. Japan and USSR sign neutrality pact (Ja) (30% chance of a US entry chit)

[Dr Deo]

Well, it would be insane for the Allies to align NL with SU early in the game exactly for the reasons you give, so I didn't even consider that. Aligning with SU would only be an option under certain circumstances when NL is still neutral in late 1941/early 1942 and both CW, SU and US are ready for some sushi. However, usually SU have other things on their mind in 1941/1942 and leave NL for the CW.

[Extraneous]

[:)] I prefer to have the CW align the NL (new home Great Britain). [:)]

[Shannon V. OKeets]

Bump.