The Power of Inexperience / GreyJoy(A)-Rader(J)

[terje439]

It is indeed possible to drain your pools as the Allies in scn 2. I've had pilots with single digit exp levels coming out in one of my games...

About your plane rating GreyJoy - what I find to be the real benefit of the corsair is its range. Alot of the allied planes have a 4/3 range while the corsair has 8/6 or thereabouts, allowing you to fly longer sweeps, apart from that I agree with you on that they are not that super-fighter you wish for

Terje

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: Saros

Assuming he has expanded his land based navy units for training then its possible to train huge numbers of pilots with a turnover of about 3 months. However they will come out at about 45exp 70 skill in one area. Going up against your ridiculous super pilots in inferior IJN/INAF planes they will be slaughtered (like is happening now).

I dont know exactly how many extra pilots you get in scen two its entirely possible in scen 1 to run out of pilots if you arent careful. I think the per month graduation rate (the guys you draw which you then train onmap) in scen1 is 140 navy 180 army pilots a month. After those pools are dry you start drawing trainees straight from the academy which take a lot longer to train up to a decent standard and will also reach the 70 skill mark with less experience.

Sincerly i don't care much about the 45 exp 70 skill pilots....i have HUGE numbers of avg pilots with those characteristics...what i fear are the Elites.... but if he gets 320 pilots for month... i won't be able to kill that many pilots...even at the good rate i'm obtaining...so his trained pilot pool won't be dried up...[:(]

[Erkki]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

ORIGINAL: Saros

Assuming he has expanded his land based navy units for training then its possible to train huge numbers of pilots with a turnover of about 3 months. However they will come out at about 45exp 70 skill in one area. Going up against your ridiculous super pilots in inferior IJN/INAF planes they will be slaughtered (like is happening now).

I dont know exactly how many extra pilots you get in scen two its entirely possible in scen 1 to run out of pilots if you arent careful. I think the per month graduation rate (the guys you draw which you then train onmap) in scen1 is 140 navy 180 army pilots a month. After those pools are dry you start drawing trainees straight from the academy which take a lot longer to train up to a decent standard and will also reach the 70 skill mark with less experience.

Sincerly i don't care much about the 45 exp 70 skill pilots....i have HUGE numbers of avg pilots with those characteristics...what i fear are the Elites.... but if he gets 320 pilots for month... i won't be able to kill that many pilots...even at the good rate i'm obtaining...so his trained pilot pool won't be dried up...[:(]

Those 320 pilots a month are EXP30 guys with branch skill of 35-40 or so. He will still have to train them 70 in at least one skill, which takes 2 months. If he loses 200 pilots dead a month he sooner or later has to add untrained pilots to his front line units or reduce the number of front line aircraft. By the looks of the combat results, it looks like good part of his front line pilots are already minimally - if at all - trained... In the future, you can expect the exchange ratio to get even better to you or he has to pull back units and build reserves. He might have the original fighter elite pilots in reserve but you already have an "ace force" of your own that is as large and as good. Then you have at least a thousand well trained pilots that are much better than his.

I dont understand what he wants from the Solomons campaign... If he does have good pilots in reserve, not using them has already cost him capital ships, and sooner or later divions worth of troops. The longer you can make him fight you here the more it hurts him than you, and he should know that.

[paulkenny]

Have gone through this aar over the past few days and I am definitely a member of the GJFB club.  Well done, great attitude and great job of not listening to the naysayers.  despite all the criticism (often harsh) you are in a great position to move towards victory.  When you held in Karachi and announced victory I shouted "Newbies of the World REJOICE!".
 
One thing, I was handed a memo from President Roosevelt asking, to the effect, that if you are not going to use those Carriers, he would like to borrow them for a while.  IN 16 months they have not sunk one ship or shot down one air plane!

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: Xargun

ORIGINAL: crsutton

BTW on the issue of the units at Japanese units at Tulagi rebuilding at a later date. I see no reason why you could not just leave them there. Once the supply is cut off, they have no offensive power and you can hold the base with a marine defense unit and a brigade of infantry and just leave his units there to rot. Tulagi is not a very good or important base for the Allies to hold so just use it as a large prison camp. No need to give him back his divisions to rebuild at all. Later in the campaign you can then eliminate them for the VPs.

I wouldn't say they have no offensive might. I just attacked with a unit in my PBeM with 0 supply and they still managed some offensive punch - not enough for what I needed, but more than you would think. Plus all he needs to do is drop some supply on them and *poof* they are back in the fight -- it takes a loooong time for units to wither on the vine and if you turn your back on them you might get bit. I would suggest bombarding them from sea and air and then simply finishing them off - it will give your units some experience too. Of if you don't finish them off at least cripple them with attacks so you are sure they are out of the fight - don't let no supplies do it as it will take months (like 6 months) for it to affect such a large group of men.


Xargun

I am not against "grinding them down a bit". That is a good idea. Just don't finish them off. Scen #2 gives the Japanese player a lot more flexibility to replace lost devices and troops. Barring other major losses I think Rader could easily rebuild those units if they were killed off at this point. A little bit of supply flown in won't boost the AV of a unit enough to matter. Not if Greyjoy is sitting behind forts with a couple of solid units. Besides, that is what the good lord made those small NZ fighter squadrons for. Just leave a small kittyhawk unit at the base on CAP and they will intercept transports.

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

Sincerly i don't care much about the 45 exp 70 skill pilots....i have HUGE numbers of avg pilots with those characteristics...what i fear are the Elites.... but if he gets 320 pilots for month... i won't be able to kill that many pilots...even at the good rate i'm obtaining...so his trained pilot pool won't be dried up...[:(]
[/quote]


No, he will never get back the high quality pilots that he started the game with. He will have no problem training replacement pilots but they will be no better than your replacement pilots so you will benefit due to better planes. You possess an amazing advantage over him due to the high skill level of your top pilots. It is very difficult for any Japanese player to accumulate top aces and I just don't see that happening to Rader considering the losses he has taken. I really don't know why but Rader has squandered his early war air advantage. Even if his strategic vision was sound he never seem to be able to get a grip on the tactical battle in the air. He should have been able to suppress your air without taking the massive losses. Now with your edge in pilots, it just can't happen.

Don't lose faith in the corsair, I am finding it to be an excellent aircraft. You are using the early version and I found that one to be disappointing. When you get the F4U-1 in a few months you will be pleased. It has drop tanks and your older corsairs will get tanks too-giving them all excellent range and making them great all around airplanes. The P47 is king but I consider the corsair the next in line if not more useful in the offensive role due to greater range. In addition you can put the next model on your carriers making them all the more dangerous.

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: paulkenny

Have gone through this aar over the past few days and I am definitely a member of the GJFB club.  Well done, great attitude and great job of not listening to the naysayers.  despite all the criticism (often harsh) you are in a great position to move towards victory.  When you held in Karachi and announced victory I shouted "Newbies of the World REJOICE!".

One thing, I was handed a memo from President Roosevelt asking, to the effect, that if you are not going to use those Carriers, he would like to borrow them for a while.  IN 16 months they have not sunk one ship or shot down one air plane!

[:D] Thanks for joining us Paul! and welcome aboard!

That's not exactly correct...during the aborted planned invasion of Iwo and Wake our "brave" carriers bombed Marcus and Wake and killed some 35 enemy zeros and Vals...the whole operation ended up with the Saratoga eating a jap sub fish and my invasion forces retiring with the tail between their legs after the discovery that Marcus and Wake were so heavily defended...[8|]

I know it sounds coward to been hiding my CVs for so long....but considering the amount of LBA he always uses and his ability to always outperform me tactically i thought it was a wiser choice not to rely on them till they get their fighter groups fully updated ...plus every time i try to move them japanese subs spring out of nowhere en masse and start to kill my CVEs[:D]

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: crsutton

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

Sincerly i don't care much about the 45 exp 70 skill pilots....i have HUGE numbers of avg pilots with those characteristics...what i fear are the Elites.... but if he gets 320 pilots for month... i won't be able to kill that many pilots...even at the good rate i'm obtaining...so his trained pilot pool won't be dried up...[:(]

No, he will never get back the high quality pilots that he started the game with. He will have no problem training replacement pilots but they will be no better than your replacement pilots so you will benefit due to better planes. You possess an amazing advantage over him due to the high skill level of your top pilots. It is very difficult for any Japanese player to accumulate top aces and I just don't see that happening to Rader considering the losses he has taken. I really don't know why but Rader has squandered his early war air advantage. Even if his strategic vision was sound he never seem to be able to get a grip on the tactical battle in the air. He should have been able to suppress your air without taking the massive losses. Now with your edge in pilots, it just can't happen.

Don't lose faith in the corsair, I am finding it to be an excellent aircraft. You are using the early version and I found that one to be disappointing. When you get the F4U-1 in a few months you will be pleased. It has drop tanks and your older corsairs will get tanks too-giving them all excellent range and making them great all around airplanes. The P47 is king but I consider the corsair the next in line if not more useful in the offensive role due to greater range. In addition you can put the next model on your carriers making them all the more dangerous.
[/quote]

Rader told me during the days of the Battle of India that his goal was simply to overwhelm the allies and dry their pools out so that any opposition would have been impossible, no matter how good their pilots were.
In this equation he probably failed to consider that crossing the LOD he gave me the ENORMOUS advantage of having 72 SPITVIIIs....those 70 planes changed the course of the Indian campaign.

The other great advantage i had was that Rader pushed me on the corner, so forcing me to only play a point defence. Not wasting precious planes and pilots on any offensive role has given me a HUGE reserve of skilled and trained pilots that, the more they become experienced, the less the chance for them to get KIA or WIA....that was the key.
While his pilots always die over my controlled territory, mines get shot down over friendly bases....

Looking forward for new corsairs so...P-47s and Australian Spits MkVIII too!....it's gonna be a warm autumn![8D]

[Crackaces]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

ORIGINAL: paulkenny

Have gone through this aar over the past few days and I am definitely a member of the GJFB club.  Well done, great attitude and great job of not listening to the naysayers.  despite all the criticism (often harsh) you are in a great position to move towards victory.  When you held in Karachi and announced victory I shouted "Newbies of the World REJOICE!".

One thing, I was handed a memo from President Roosevelt asking, to the effect, that if you are not going to use those Carriers, he would like to borrow them for a while.  IN 16 months they have not sunk one ship or shot down one air plane!

[:D] Thanks for joining us Paul! and welcome aboard!

That's not exactly correct...during the aborted planned invasion of Iwo and Wake our "brave" carriers bombed Marcus and Wake and killed some 35 enemy zeros and Vals...the whole operation ended up with the Saratoga eating a jap sub fish and my invasion forces retiring with the tail between their legs after the discovery that Marcus and Wake were so heavily defended...[8|]

I know it sounds coward to been hiding my CVs for so long....but considering the amount of LBA he always uses and his ability to always outperform me tactically i thought it was a wiser choice not to rely on them till they get their fighter groups fully updated ...plus every time i try to move them japanese subs spring out of nowhere en masse and start to kill my CVEs[:D]

This is somewhat discouraging GreyJoy .. As a newbie ...I was really hoping that by 1943 the USN ASW would be expereinced enough to provide some sort of protection against the IJN submarine force. If he is still able to pentrate big DD screens and hit CV's at will in 1943, then I understand your trepitation in deploying carriers. I am simply trying to protect my tanker convoys with 8 DD screens in 1942 and these are not doing the trick. No reaction or protection... . just whoosh whoosh .. another one bites the dust [:@] After that experince I am very very cautious about deploying my CVTF fleet.

[GreyJoy]

Probably if you make your CVs following an ASW TF and a Surface TF composed by a DD division, you can move pretty safely...i didn't do that and i got mauled several times (got the Saratoga torped, 3 CVE and a BB sunk only due to subs operating very far away from the front).

However the KB remains the main concerns...the "8 hexes" rule can be a killer as PzB showed us all...

[paulkenny]

Couple of points one positive for you one negative.

The bad news first. With all the air fighting going on, that means alot of experience for both sides. Yes you are hurting his pilots. I would IMAGINE though that he has moved a bunch of elite pilots to TRACOM, if he can get 20 or 30 of each branch into TRACOM his raw recruits will be coming out of the academy near 45 or 50 i believe, certainly higher than raw recruits, quicker to train to effective status.

The good news, though your LONG term out look is quite good, with all the HI spent on airframes he MUST have had to pay that price elsewhere, ships primarily. Yes he is enriched but it only goes soo far.

Couple of observations

I cant believe what I am seeing in terms of airplanes fighting, I am a JFB and play primarily Japanese and I cant imaging sweeps of hundreds of airplanes. How does one build up the Sentais and Dutais and Bowties up to that level of planes???

That day of nearly 1,000 planes shot down was incredible, the next day another 400 or so!! WOW[&o]

[GreyJoy]

afaik TRACOM only speeds up the process of the accademy courses...so pilots will come out with the usual experience but few months earlier.

Then abou the experience that goes up for both sides...i don't think the process is so easy for the Japs. Being on the offensive there are a lot more pilots MIA or KIA than WIA...and very few (especially bomber ones) survive after a raid, while the 95% of my pilots usually survive to fight another day, no matter is the planes is damaged, written off or shot down.

You mean "The mother of all air battles" ? We had two main blowing battles...the first one over karachi when he started the offensive to reduce the Citadel....actually that battle went on for 6 months...and then the day of "Ndeni-KB-Raid" where he launched contemporarly two big raids over Ndeni and over Karachi in Jan 43

[GreyJoy]

Bloody glorious days[8D]

[Erkki]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

However the KB remains the main concerns...the "8 hexes" rule can be a killer as PzB showed us all...

But not quite yet! B5N torpedo delivery range is 7 and D3A carries 250kg bomb 6 and 2 x 60kg bombs 7 hex only. Only B5N flies 8 hex, carrying 2 x 250kg bombs - together worth about one 1000lbs bomb but the B5N needs to skip or glide bomb them.

B6N and D4Y have just arrived to the Japanese arsenal, and they both use a unique engine. Do you know where the KB is? The next time it will put its head out it will most likely have some new strike A/C with her, but its unlikely to me that Rader could also build hundreds of them both a month to replace all KB aircraft this early. Possibly yes, probably no, even Rader cant be using all of his HI to aircraft production... [:D]

[crsutton]

Japanese subs are pretty stong in the game for the first two years. I would say the Viperpol has torpedoed half a dozen carriers (Wasp twice) another half a dozen BBs, sunk two or three CAs and another four or five CLs. Plus three or four damaged CVEs have fallen to his subs. I consider myself lucky that he has only damaged capital ships and not sunk any. But most any Allied AAR has some critical ships getting hit by subs. Allied player just has to deal with it and go about his business. The only consolation is that by late 43, Allied ASW assets get very good and I have pretty much knocked the Japanese sub fleet out in exchange for my losses.

My subs have gotten a few of his as well but so far only damaging BBs or CVs.

[GreyJoy]

April 17, 18 1943

A sleepy turn. The enemy BBs moved to Auki, while, as predicted, his bombers didn't fly against my BBs at Karaikira. I've lost track of the KB and that is a bad news....

Nothing else happened....

We decided to make a complex coordinated manouvre.

6 Fletchers with 2 modern CLs will sweep Thousands Ships Bay along with PTs and subs....maybe we can hurt him without risking our precious fast BBs...however the battle will go, this TF will move back to Tassafaronga (a base that i haven't used for ages now) under a 200 crack fighters umbrella CAP

Our BBs won't stay doing nothing. they'll sweep Tulagi in order to prevent a BB bombardment and then will move back to Ndeni, under the protection of 150 LRCAP from Karaikira. At Ndeni more 250 fighters will provide cover.

Bombers and torpedo bombers are allerted at Ndeni in case he tries something strange with the KB...

The rest of my surface assets will recombine at Ndeni where arrived 20 DDs after the upgrades and refitting.

It will be a bloody turn...i know that....i just hope to get some luck....those fletchers could put a couple of torps in his BBs....let's hope for the best[:)]

[Saros]

I very much doubt Rader has his elite pilots from the start of the game left in a reserve somewhere. He will likely have a bunch of exp 80+ pilots in TRACOM but otherwise you will not have to face much more than basic trained pilots until you have been fighting over his bases for some time. Even then it is very hard for the Japanese player to accumulate elite pilots due to the fragility of many of their planes.

In my game (only may 42) I have pulled as many of the 70+ exp pilots you start with as possible off the frontlines and replaced them with trained 50xp 70air pilots and I can see the difference in performance it has made, especially with oscars and zeroes against P-38's [:(]. Airframes are fairly easy to replace as the Japanese but high exp pilots are priceless and almost impossible to get more of.

[GreyJoy]

Thx guys, but sooner or later things will turn and it will be me the one forced to attack and fight aerial battles over his bases...but i do promise to take care of our guys and not to throw them away without a reason.
 
The KB has actually fought a lot of aerial battles (in India and in the SWPAC now) and many times she suffered badly in terms of downed planes. Hope those crack pilots Rader begins with are food for fishes right now.
 
About the last turn i forgot to say that i've ordered to 50 4Es to move to Lunga and to try to bomb Rabaul port at night (remember our HR about night bombing: number of bombers allowed=Moonlight%/2 at 10k feet min alt).
 
He has spotted my BBs...so the question is : is he going to create a "trap2 for them? i'm also wondering if the presence of his BBs so close to the front, for so many days, without actually using them, was a way to "call out" my big ships in order to smash them with a KB+LBA ambush....mmmmmm[:o]

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: Erkki

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

However the KB remains the main concerns...the "8 hexes" rule can be a killer as PzB showed us all...

But not quite yet! B5N torpedo delivery range is 7 and D3A carries 250kg bomb 6 and 2 x 60kg bombs 7 hex only. Only B5N flies 8 hex, carrying 2 x 250kg bombs - together worth about one 1000lbs bomb but the B5N needs to skip or glide bomb them.

B6N and D4Y have just arrived to the Japanese arsenal, and they both use a unique engine. Do you know where the KB is? The next time it will put its head out it will most likely have some new strike A/C with her, but its unlikely to me that Rader could also build hundreds of them both a month to replace all KB aircraft this early. Possibly yes, probably no, even Rader cant be using all of his HI to aircraft production... [:D]

Good to know Erkki, but i prefer to be prudent and consider the KB able to strike from 8 hex distance.
And however Rader did tell me that his strategy was to concentrate his HI points only on planes, halting everything else except CVs and Escort ships....so we all may be surprised by his plane production capabilities in this game

[GreyJoy]

...waiting for the reply to come in....
 
....so if he bombards Tulagi with his BBs we're gonna have a great clash between his 6 BBs (+19 DDs) and my 4 modern BBs (along with 2 CAs, 3 CLs and 11 modern DDs)...then the survivability of my ships after the battle will depend on what he does with his LBA bombers....will he encrease back their range? Will my LRCAP be able to cover them till they safely reach Ndeni? Will my light cruiser division that has swept nighttime Thousands Ships Bay and retired to Tassafaronga will grab the attention of his naval attacks thus letting the BBs to get back to Ndeni unmolested?....so many questions...so few answers....