Unlimited stacking

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: treespider

Been away for a bit longer than expected and cannot stay long...

I would hesitate putting a hard cap on stacking. The tools are already in place to deal with telephones.

As has been astutely pointed out the issue is not how many men could physically be present in a given area...the issue is - is the infrastructure in place to support the number of men at the given place.


Part of the solution to the problem is already in place...supply caps. Also in place is the ability to increase the supply CAP with the presence of a base. As the base expands so does the supply cap.

So if I were GOD I would extend the supply CAP to ALL hexes based on terrain type....with the presence of a base giving a given hex the ability to expand the supply thruput of the hex as the base expands. The CAP would not only be an indicator of how much supply a base could receive but also of how much it could send. As an added modifier I would modify the send/receive capacity based upon the amount of Support present in a hex.

So if one wanted to sim the Ledo Road you have a chain of dot bases that as they were expanded would expand the supply capacity of their hex and would also increase the potential thruput of the chain of hexes.

Hexes without a base would have a fixed supply capacity...hexes with bases the supply capacity could be increased as the base was expanded.

So what type of humbers are you talking about? Bearing in mind that a heavy jungle hex with no road system is going to have to move supplies the old fashioned way...either on a mule train or by a bunch of guys humping it on their backs.

Best example of how bad trying to go through the heavy, undeveloped jungles of Burma is the Chindits. Certainly most people in this topic know more about the Chindits than I do? But from what I've read, in one operation, ~3000 Chindits started with 72 lbs of gear and mules, they had 7 days of supplies and the rest would be air dropped. By the end of the operation ~800 had been killed and another ~600 were injured or sickened to the point they could not return to active duty. Many fell to malaria and dysentery.

This is a reason why almost all battles follow developed roads...it is extremely hard to supply an army in a wilderness area...which is what I think we are all trying to accomplish here right?

[JWE]

Guadalcanal is a pretty good example. By mid November, the US had 2 div equivalents going, 1 MarDiv(+) and Americal(-)(+). The troop count in November was about 37,000; That's 1 MarDiv(+ 2nd Marines), Americal (- 132nd IR, + 147th IR), a Raider, Para, Tank, and Defense Bn, and a Coast Arty Regt equivalent (2 Bns).

In January, XIV Corps had three div equivalents; 2 MarDiv, Americal and 25th ID, plus a Sep IR, two CA Rgts, an FA Bn, and a DefBn. TOE troop count for these is about 50,000 (50,078, J.R.Miller, Guadalcanal, USACMH). Throw in BF elements, some engineers, and you get to about 55,000. And that includes Tulagi.

Japanese are a bit tougher to cypher. There were about 1,000 troops and laborers on-island Aug 7. TOE troop count of the units comprising the Japanese OOB is about 44,000, but Japanese the strength return of 20 Nov '42 show 29,117 troops landed since Aug 7 (R.Frank, Guadalcanal, Random House). Now, just to stay righteous, Rottman, SoPac and New Guinea, Osprey, says 36,200 troops (IJA and IJN) were deployed to the Canal, and S.C.Jersey, The Untold Storyof Guadalcanal, TA&MUP, says 50,000 and that most of the 2,000 termites were evacuated.

So, as of mid-November, assuming nobody got shot, got malaria, or starved to death, there could have been 67,000 troops (by Frank, or 74,000 by Rottman, or 86,000 by Jersey) on the whole island, distributed across two hexes. Now, every time the Japanese moved out of their hex and into Lunga, they began to starve. They had to capture Lunga (the supply) in order to eat. When they had to retreat back through the jungle, woof!!

The Ke evacuation lifted 4,935 troops according to Frank (or 5,000 Morisson, or 10,000 Jersey), so that's some 30-40,000 dead. That's 85% casualties. I'm sure the Marines and the Army shot quite a few, but the vast majority were from disease and starvation.

Even the US was not imune to jungle terrain. The final Mt Austin/Gifu/Galloping and Sea Horse offensives were carried out by a grand total of 6 US Army Infantry Bns (about 4,800 troops), and the Last Matanikau by a like number of Marine Bns. That's 9-10,000 functional combat effectives out of a total of 50,000. And even that overstates the case, because only 2/3 of the were actually on-line at any given time; the rest were reliefs. So no more than 6-7,000 operationally active (out of 50,000); 'cause no more would fit.

Ok, so 20,000 might be thin. But 60,000, at a built up base hex, might be ok, with 20,000 the max limit in the hinterlands.

Btw, and just for fun; in Feb, in the planning just before Cleanslate, Turner and Hester reported an available combat headcount of 41,716 troops, and a total headcount of 212,717 in the Cactus/Ringbolt Operational Area (USA, USN, USMC).

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: Shark7

ORIGINAL: treespider

Been away for a bit longer than expected and cannot stay long...

I would hesitate putting a hard cap on stacking. The tools are already in place to deal with telephones.

As has been astutely pointed out the issue is not how many men could physically be present in a given area...the issue is - is the infrastructure in place to support the number of men at the given place.


Part of the solution to the problem is already in place...supply caps. Also in place is the ability to increase the supply CAP with the presence of a base. As the base expands so does the supply cap.

So if I were GOD I would extend the supply CAP to ALL hexes based on terrain type....with the presence of a base giving a given hex the ability to expand the supply thruput of the hex as the base expands. The CAP would not only be an indicator of how much supply a base could receive but also of how much it could send. As an added modifier I would modify the send/receive capacity based upon the amount of Support present in a hex.

So if one wanted to sim the Ledo Road you have a chain of dot bases that as they were expanded would expand the supply capacity of their hex and would also increase the potential thruput of the chain of hexes.

Hexes without a base would have a fixed supply capacity...hexes with bases the supply capacity could be increased as the base was expanded.

So what type of humbers are you talking about? Bearing in mind that a heavy jungle hex with no road system is going to have to move supplies the old fashioned way...either on a mule train or by a bunch of guys humping it on their backs.

Best example of how bad trying to go through the heavy, undeveloped jungles of Burma is the Chindits. Certainly most people in this topic know more about the Chindits than I do? But from what I've read, in one operation, ~3000 Chindits started with 72 lbs of gear and mules, they had 7 days of supplies and the rest would be air dropped. By the end of the operation ~800 had been killed and another ~600 were injured or sickened to the point they could not return to active duty. Many fell to malaria and dysentery.

This is a reason why almost all battles follow developed roads...it is extremely hard to supply an army in a wilderness area...which is what I think we are all trying to accomplish here right?

Will take some time (which I simply do not have right now) to research and come up with a plausible numbers...but whatever number is arrived at will have to be normalised with In Game supply consupmtion rates.

ORIGINAL: JWE

So, as of mid-November, assuming nobody got shot, got malaria, or starved to death, there could have been 67,000 troops (by Frank, or 74,000 by Rottman, or 86,000 by Jersey) on the whole island, distributed across two hexes. Now, every time the Japanese moved out of their hex and into Lunga, they began to starve. They had to capture Lunga (the supply) in order to eat. When they had to retreat back through the jungle, woof!!

Which is exactly the point I was driving at with my suggestion...it isn't the number of men present it is the lack of infrastructure and support needed to keep the men supplied. Kind of like siege warfare in the middle ages.

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

All I can use is my own experience in Burma and I cannot supply a telephone pole witht he current system so a change would double up the impact without the ability to build up infrastructurte to offset it.

Need to be carefull with this as we dont have the ability to invest in infrastructure to improve the supply load of terrain.

e.g. IRL when Slim counterattacked in 45 he was able to supply best part of 5 - 6 Divs plus support units and 2 Armoured Bdes from Assam to North Burma so it was possible (albeit difficult) a static map makes me very wary of setting a limit low enough that it will kill the ability to attack

In my current game with PZB I have not had more than 70,000 men in any one hex even on the plains - if you implement this system you may need to disable the current supply limitation fix we have in Burma/Australia. (which would replace a dynamic fix where investing in bases improves a supply net with a static one thats uncghangable because we cannot change the map in game)

Not saying cannot work just saying we need to be carefull and test it a LOT

Yes...but largely by air supply. As the campaign rolled on, Slim was actually forced to remove some of his troops because not even the prodigeous Allied air Transport Machine could keep ALL of his units in supply.

Making supply as much an issue as the game allows for India/North Burma could go a long way to better simulating the region and highlighting the importance of Rangoon (Thus eliminating the classic Mandalay/North Burma Maginot Line that Player two usually builds by the time Player one can get around to invading the country.

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: treespider
Which is exactly the point I was driving at with my suggestion...it isn't the number of men present it is the lack of infrastructure and support needed to keep the men supplied. Kind of like siege warfare in the middle ages.

Same for Burma.....its not about troops per hex....its about the lack of supply that could consistantly flow across the mountains along the border of India/Burma. It frankly should be nigh impossible to keep major units in supply short of use of a large component of air transports. Another factor to keep in mind is that air transport in the game is easier to do than in RL because of abstracted supply. Bearing that in mind, the logistics should be even more constrained to compensate for that.

[JWE]

ORIGINAL: Shark7
This is a reason why almost all battles follow developed roads...it is extremely hard to supply an army in a wilderness area...which is what I think we are all trying to accomplish here right?

In a sense, yes. Which is one reason we are discussing this on the mod forum, because a normal group of players would not wish to deal with this sort of thing. As important as logistics really is, your nominal wargamer (the guy who buys the Title) just assumes "the Spice will flow" so they can do their combat things. Ya make it too hard, and make them do accounting stuff, and make them have to think like a real life General, and ya lose the acceptance/monetary base of the Title.

Stuff we are doing here is tweaking, as much as we can, to conform certain things to a true grognard's appreciation. But these things must, simply must, be absolutely transparent to the nominal player. And as much as we would like to get things on an absolute IRL basis, we still need to understand the limitations that the game engine imposes, first, and then use those limitations to develop a philosophically acceptable model.

So ... from my demented mind ... I look at roads, railroads, etc. as supply paths. I explicitly accept troop strength limitations in hexes, and rely on huge supply dumps (that take months to develop) and roads, railroads, etc., to get those supplies to the troops in sufficient quantities to keep them going "for a while". I believe that if you step off-road, you are eating the 'rats in your ruck, and shooting the mags in your vest, and there ain't no more.

None of this says ya can't run a telephone pole up Burma; just that your telephone pole will starve after a couple hexes. None of this says Slim couldn't run a 5 division assault (over two hexes), after a huge supply build-up that took more than two years, that allowed for 70% attrition. Just how many Bns and how many men actually participated in Meiktila and Mandalay?

[ed] whoops. and then how many actually got to Rangoon, by whatever means? For Chris'sake, Sittang, Pyawbwe, Hlegu, Yomas, was a total of 9 Inf Bns (7,000 girls with guns) and returns say only 70% were up and on-line. Yeah, sure, easy, 175,000 troops started: about 5-10,000 finished.

[Kereguelen]

ORIGINAL: JWE

[ed] whoops. and then how many actually got to Rangoon, by whatever means? For Chris'sake, Sittang, Pyawbwe, Hlegu, Yomas, was a total of 9 Inf Bns (7,000 girls with guns) and returns say only 70% were up and on-line. Yeah, sure, easy, 175,000 troops started: about 5-10,000 finished.

Well, they (26th Indian Division) took Rangoon by amphibious invasion (unopposed because the IJA had already withdrawn its forces)[;)]

But 14th Army (Slim) deployed four Indian Divisions (5th, 7th, 17th and 20th), one British Division (2nd), two Tank Brigades (254th and 255th), one Motorised Brigade (268th), one East African Brigade (28th) and one Light/Irregular Brigade (Lushai) in Central Burma in 1945 (not counting the forces in the Arakan and under Stilwell, including 36th British Division and the Chinese).

Not by stacking the whole lot in one 'hex', of course, and by employing lots of transport planes. But, nevertheless, 14th Army used the 'roads' leading from Assam to Burma to march to Central Burma.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: JWE

Guadalcanal is a pretty good example. By mid November, the US had 2 div equivalents going, 1 MarDiv(+) and Americal(-)(+). The troop count in November was about 37,000; That's 1 MarDiv(+ 2nd Marines), Americal (- 132nd IR, + 147th IR), a Raider, Para, Tank, and Defense Bn, and a Coast Arty Regt equivalent (2 Bns).

A slight clarification - the 1st MarDiv was minus one of its regiments (forget which one) when it went to Guadalcanal, which is why 2nd Marines were under the div for the invasion.

[JWE]

ORIGINAL: witpqs
A slight clarification - the 1st MarDiv was minus one of its regiments (forget which one) when it went to Guadalcanal, which is why 2nd Marines were under the div for the invasion.

Oh, yeah, fer sure. 2nd Marines were attached to 1 MarDiv for opening day. 7th Marines, and the last of Pedro's guns landed mid-September. All these units are in the "count the eyeballs and divide by 2" number. I trust Mr Frank to guess just who did what, and to whom, and when. So far, the numbers are exactly what they should be for a MarDiv (-)(+).

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen

ORIGINAL: JWE

[ed] whoops. and then how many actually got to Rangoon, by whatever means? For Chris'sake, Sittang, Pyawbwe, Hlegu, Yomas, was a total of 9 Inf Bns (7,000 girls with guns) and returns say only 70% were up and on-line. Yeah, sure, easy, 175,000 troops started: about 5-10,000 finished.

Well, they (26th Indian Division) took Rangoon by amphibious invasion (unopposed because the IJA had already withdrawn its forces)[;)]

But 14th Army (Slim) deployed four Indian Divisions (5th, 7th, 17th and 20th), one British Division (2nd), two Tank Brigades (254th and 255th), one Motorised Brigade (268th), one East African Brigade (28th) and one Light/Irregular Brigade (Lushai) in Central Burma in 1945 (not counting the forces in the Arakan and under Stilwell, including 36th British Division and the Chinese).

Not by stacking the whole lot in one 'hex', of course, and by employing lots of transport planes. But, nevertheless, 14th Army used the 'roads' leading from Assam to Burma to march to Central Burma.

There can be no doubt the trail/road structure of AE does not support historical attacks - by either side - in Burma. I am experimenting with modified pwhexe files - to see what makes the attacks hard but not impossible? Also - I suspect that a game as simultion needs different pwhexe files - for different seasons - and to allow for some construction. For example, that two years of build up changed the Bengal and Assam RR from secondary to primary line. I think that works in game terms too - provided you give players the pwhexe files to upgrade the line.

Related is that the Allies used the "Road to Mandalay" - the river system - on a big scale. This seems to be missing from AE - although you can created barges on the river - you cannot create a mini-navy. The only US Army WARSHIPS commissioned as such in WWII are in Burma - see US Army Ships and Watercraft of WWII.

[Andy Mac]

I factored navigatable rivers into the individual supply cap calc for bases in Burma frontier

[JWE]

Just got my new computer up and running, Andy. Will be making a test bed scenario for JeffK, using Nik's Guad Scen004, to see what we gots. If ya think it worthwhile, shoot me your Burma scen and I'll diddle with that too.

Ciao. John

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Blackhorse

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

All I can use is my own experience in Burma and I cannot supply a telephone pole witht he current system so a change would double up the impact without the ability to build up infrastructurte to offset it.

Need to be carefull with this as we dont have the ability to invest in infrastructure to improve the supply load of terrain.

e.g. IRL when Slim counterattacked in 45 he was able to supply best part of 5 - 6 Divs plus support units and 2 Armoured Bdes from Assam to North Burma so it was possible (albeit difficult) a static map makes me very wary of setting a limit low enough that it will kill the ability to attack

In my current game with PZB I have not had more than 70,000 men in any one hex even on the plains - if you implement this system you may need to disable the current supply limitation fix we have in Burma/Australia. (which would replace a dynamic fix where investing in bases improves a supply net with a static one thats uncghangable because we cannot change the map in game)

Not saying cannot work just saying we need to be carefull and test it a LOT

I fully agree. There are enormous potential unintended consequences.

The real-life battles to defend China frequently involved the Chinese outnumbering the Japanese by a factor of three or five in order to thwart an offensive. With a hard cap, based on total numbers of soldiers, it might be possible for the Japanese to assemble an irresistible "Land Death Star".

From reading the AARs, China is difficult to defend already. Stacking limits might make it impossible, without making other changes to the game to restore each side's historical capabilities.

China can be made far more difficult for the Japanese to conquer. Wholly apart from technical aspects of China which make an offensive into Chunking itself almost impossible to begin with. A limited application of Treespider's concept - more locations - is one thing. This has the advantage of rationalizing the map art better - not so many "roads (and railroads) to nowhere." But it also provides more points to supply the Chinese, more points to garrison, and more points to fight over. A completely different mechanism is to reform the data in the Chinese OB - data which often imatiates Chinese forces - apparently by design intent. In particular, China should have a greater fraction of its aviation support units IRL than it has in the game. It ought to be possible to fly almost everywhere in China with even short range aircraft - and it ought to be possible to support significant air operations in some places. What appeear to be tricks in the air OB data force aviation support to tiny values - and reduce the CAF to a very low potential - when IRL it ought eventually to become a problem. Yet another mechanism is to create a fraction of the Chinese irregulars that operate deep behind enemy lines - so called guerilla "regiments" - using semi-independent supply. This mechanism has been demonstrated since WITP days, and it works fine in AE. Give the formation a small amount of independent supply (It "lives off the land with local support) - usually such that if unsupplied it will build up to - then sustain 2/3 of its full TO&E - so if it draws any supply from the map it builds up to 100% - and these units can - when not at strength (as when attacked) - wander around and hop onto Japanese LOC. When they do reach high strength, they become harder to hurt - but also "plant" - because of the presence of a single static device - representing a preference for a local area where they have established "connections". Finally - yet another approach is to work on the pwhexe file - in several technical respeccts - so that certain areas - which it is impractical to "feed" (the Upper Yellow River for example) become easier to support. In China - the rivers are important LOC - and this can be achieved in a couple of ways. [Note that the lower Yellow River - below Kaifeng - where the river rode above ground level after centuries of silting and dyke building - was deliberately messed up before our games begin - to hurt the Japanese invaders - and the lower river - except near the sea - is not navigable any longer in game terms] There are several aspects of this - including giving the Chinese benefit of considerable RR construction during the war. Yet another mechanism - partially addressed by Treespider's reform of adding locations - is adding realistic industries to locations already present. This means locations are not just potential air bases - but also sources of supply - or resources for other locations. And China's local oil industry needs to be present so Chinese HI can produce as well. Finally - link up the historical rail lines - so Japan can do what it really did do in 1944 - create a rail connection from Indochina to Shanghai - which then became a strategic issue (a way not to need so much shipping). Those same rail lines benefit China while in Chinese hands - and create a powerful incentive for the Japanese to fight over them INSTEAD of trying to go for Chunking and Kunming - which then are more likely to remain a logistic base for Chinese operations.

[JWE]

Ok, so Andrew is doing a pwhexe mod on a file that we are using for Nik's Guad Scen. There's a couple little additional tweaks we will be doing. Should be a good test bed.

While we're at it, we'll be dialing the OOBs and LCUs into DaBabes specs, but keeping Nik's airplane and land AA values in line. Should end up with Ashurbanipal's own Guadalcanal scenario. Stay tuned. Think we'll call it the Nikademobanipal (or maybe the Ashurbanikademos) Guadalcanal scenario.[;)]

[Nikademus]

Its like an Urban lengend.......really. It won't die. [:D]

There's no need to "preserve" my Air and land AA values John. As i've said many times in the past. Scn004 is not a "mod"...Nikmod or otherwise. Its simply Guadalcanal....using AE standard data values for devices. Some 'may' be outdated however as the periodic updates unless i'm mistaken only apply to scen 1 and 2. Feel free to use the latest data points for your experiment.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

Its like an Urban lengend.......really. It won't die. [:D]

There's no need to "preserve" my Air and land AA values John. As i've said many times in the past. Scn004 is not a "mod"...Nikmod or otherwise. Its simply Guadalcanal....using AE standard data values for devices. Some 'may' be outdated however as the periodic updates unless i'm mistaken only apply to scen 1 and 2. Feel free to use the latest data points for your experiment.

But its a great little scenario. Tons of fun ... and very playable.

[Nikademus]

aw shucks. [:D]

Glad your enjoying it. Now for "Mod" fun........you should see what i'm doing to John's Babes scenario on the side. [:)]

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus
Glad your enjoying it. Now for "Mod" fun........you should see what i'm doing to John's Babes scenario on the side. [:)]

Can't wait until you post something.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

aw shucks. [:D]

Glad your enjoying it.

Yeah ... [:D]

But seriously, a fair number of us (me included) would love to play a GC PBEM. Unfortunately life isn't going to allow that to happen for a while. So, the GUA scenario is one of the best choices. Good setup. Fairly tough play on the IJ side even against the AI. And you can finish in a day or two. Thanks. Hope the units get updated to the current standard at some point, but even so it is a good scenario.

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: JWE

Ok, so Andrew is doing a pwhexe mod on a file that we are using for Nik's Guad Scen. There's a couple little additional tweaks we will be doing. Should be a good test bed.

While we're at it, we'll be dialing the OOBs and LCUs into DaBabes specs, but keeping Nik's airplane and land AA values in line. Should end up with Ashurbanipal's own Guadalcanal scenario. Stay tuned. Think we'll call it the Nikademobanipal (or maybe the Ashurbanikademos) Guadalcanal scenario.[;)]

I'm definately interesting in hearing how this turns out. I, like you, accept the fact that we shouldn't be able to run 100k troops through the jungle without massive supply problems and operational losses. Even the Chindit example had a ratio of about 50% permanent casualties (either dead or wounded and unfit for service), so it makes sense that in game we shouldn't be able to run 25 divisions through Burma.