Hiwis and 1.05

[Cavalry Corp]

There were also "foreign volunteers" which were incorporated into German units, mostly waffen SS formations. This appears to be what Cobexlaw888's mod is addressing. However the manpower for these units did not come from the "Hiwis".

I would have thought these units should be in the game - if you have Hiwi then you also need these volunteers and or conscripts. When you read the unit histories they seem quite robust units - especially the ones from the Baltics.

They are not hard to find and therefore should not be hard to include in the game , just like you have repl for Hungary , you can have repl for Lithuanian , Estonia etc.
Cav

[BletchleyGeek]

Ok, now I got the reasons for glvaca to post the OCS oob in the other thread

Well, there are such "Ost" units in WitE... but not in the GCs. Just check the Red Army Resurgent beta scenario, and you'll find that the "gap" sout of Elista is covered by a bunch of units made of ex-Soviet soldiers.

The reasons for them not being in the GC I think are mostly an engine limitation. To have them and not cause trouble with German replacements, such units should belong to a virtual "Axis" nation. And "hiwis" support squads should be "exports" from this virtual nation to Germany. Seems a bit involved to handle these units in a consistent way.

[Montbrun]

Hiwis were NOT Osttruppen - these are two different things. The Hiwis were volunteer POWs that helped in non-combat functions - supply, etc. - support squads in game terms. Osttruppen were combat formations, some personnel recruited from POWS, but the majority were volunteers. Most of these units were used in the West as garrison units. Also, Hiwis were NOT officially authorized for units serving in the West.

Brad

[BletchleyGeek]

ORIGINAL: Brad Hunter
Hiwis were NOT Osttruppen - these are two different things. The Hiwis were volunteer POWs that helped in non-combat functions - supply, etc. - support squads in game terms. Osttruppen were combat formations, some personnel recruited from POWS, but the majority were volunteers. Most of these units were used in the West as garrison units. Also, Hiwis were NOT officially authorized for units serving in the West.

Yes, indeed. The discussion - I think - was about the question/concern of glvaca about historic combat units recruited from Soviet POWs which *did* serve on the eastern German front.

[glvaca]

ORIGINAL: Brad Hunter

Hiwis were NOT Osttruppen - these are two different things. The Hiwis were volunteer POWs that helped in non-combat functions - supply, etc. - support squads in game terms. Osttruppen were combat formations, some personnel recruited from POWS, but the majority were volunteers. Most of these units were used in the West as garrison units. Also, Hiwis were NOT officially authorized for units serving in the West.

Brad

There is a third cathegory (which has been discussed above) which are ethnic minorities fighting for the Germans on the East front. They are also labelled Ost truppen. They are quite numerous and are not reflected (directly) in the game currently. And that is what it is about...[;)]

[glvaca]

ORIGINAL: Brad Hunter

Hiwis were NOT Osttruppen - these are two different things. The Hiwis were volunteer POWs that helped in non-combat functions - supply, etc. - support squads in game terms. Osttruppen were combat formations, some personnel recruited from POWS, but the majority were volunteers. Most of these units were used in the West as garrison units. Also, Hiwis were NOT officially authorized for units serving in the West.

Brad

By the way, since you are on the WitE research team, check this post: tm.asp?m=2900682
It's the OoB from OCS: Case Blue
You will notice quite a few units (German and Ost truppen missing in WitE).
Maybe your sources are better but it could be interesting to check...

[Great_Ajax]

I can't wrap my head around this list.

Trey

ORIGINAL: glvaca

ORIGINAL: Brad Hunter

Hiwis were NOT Osttruppen - these are two different things. The Hiwis were volunteer POWs that helped in non-combat functions - supply, etc. - support squads in game terms. Osttruppen were combat formations, some personnel recruited from POWS, but the majority were volunteers. Most of these units were used in the West as garrison units. Also, Hiwis were NOT officially authorized for units serving in the West.

Brad

By the way, since you are on the WitE research team, check this post: tm.asp?m=2900682
It's the OoB from OCS: Case Blue
You will notice quite a few units (German and Ost truppen missing in WitE).
Maybe your sources are better but it could be interesting to check...

[Zebedee]

ORIGINAL: Brad Hunter

Hiwis were NOT Osttruppen - these are two different things. The Hiwis were volunteer POWs that helped in non-combat functions - supply, etc. - support squads in game terms. Osttruppen were combat formations, some personnel recruited from POWS, but the majority were volunteers. Most of these units were used in the West as garrison units. Also, Hiwis were NOT officially authorized for units serving in the West.

Brad

Hi Brad. Might be worth doublechecking on your certainty over how Hiwis were accounted for in the reporting. The Hiwi totals are very inclusive and do indeed include Osttruppen - whether secondary sources reflect that or not is always curious.

[Steelers708]

ORIGINAL: Brad Hunter
Also, Hiwis were NOT officially authorized for units serving in the West.

Brad

Hi Brad,

I'm interested in the source for this as certainly by the time of Normandy most German units in France/Holland etc were authorized/had Hiwi's.

[Great_Ajax]

Consider the second and third order of effects with adding these new units. First, ask yourself do you want replacements siphoned off from your SS and Panzer Divisions to man the 650th Volksgrenadier Division which hardly saw any combat? Will most people even use these units or will they be disbanded for their replacements? If the answer is no but we still want these units, then we have to figure out how to man these units through manpower and create special squads for each nationality. Then you have to consider these security and police units which could unbalance the whole abstracted partisan conflict. If Joel thinks these additions are worthy of the programming time, I would be happy to add them into the campaigns. Personally, I wouldn't want these units sucking up good manpower.

Trey

[glvaca]

ORIGINAL: el hefe

I can't wrap my head around this list.

Trey

Pardon? [X(]

What is it you have trouble with?

[glvaca]

ORIGINAL: el hefe

Consider the second and third order of effects with adding these new units. First, ask yourself do you want replacements siphoned off from your SS and Panzer Divisions to man the 650th Volksgrenadier Division which hardly saw any combat? Will most people even use these units or will they be disbanded for their replacements? If the answer is no but we still want these units, then we have to figure out how to man these units through manpower and create special squads for each nationality. Then you have to consider these security and police units which could unbalance the whole abstracted partisan conflict. If Joel thinks these additions are worthy of the programming time, I would be happy to add them into the campaigns. Personally, I wouldn't want these units sucking up good manpower.

Trey

The question is, are we getting this manpower now? Not the Hiwi manpower, but the ethnic minoritiy manpower that fought for the Germans on the Eastern front.

Secondly, there are definitely regiment and brigade type units which are missing from the OoB. Also several German KG's and Mech Bat. are not in there (as far as I can tell from quickly checking) which could be VERY usefull to attach to Panzer divs, etc...

For instance (just an example) I remember the 16 Mot. Div in Operation Uranus had a regiment of 3 batt. of Cav. attached to help them patrol the open Flank (South Stalingrad).

Will it decisively influence the game? Maybe not, but this is hard core gaming, it adds flair and fun.

Concerning the manpower, 1 pool for these units seems like plenty, just add more to the pool to take them into account [:'(][:D][;)]

[Montbrun]

ORIGINAL: Steelers708

ORIGINAL: Brad Hunter
Also, Hiwis were NOT officially authorized for units serving in the West.

Brad

Hi Brad,

I'm interested in the source for this as certainly by the time of Normandy most German units in France/Holland etc were authorized/had Hiwi's.

They may have had Osttruppen attached/assigned, but, Hiwis were not officially sanctioned. In the NARA docs, a clear distinction is made between the Kriegsgliederung for units serving in the East and West - units in the West were not officially authorized Hiwi. Did some units bring their Hiwi with them, when they were sent to the West for refit? Maybe. I've not found any definitive documentation on this, but I do know that most units in the West were authorized Osttruppen - mostly company-sized units, with some battalions, and a few regiment-sized units - and these units were armed - and surrendered en-masse at the first opportunity after the Allies landed.

The Poles in Italy, and in NWE, carried extra stocks of "allied" uniforms, and inducted many former ethnically Polish Wehrmacht troops, on the spot, into their ranks. In Italy, the 3rd and 5th Divisions had so many "volunteers," that they were able to form 3rd brigades in both divisions in 1945.

Have all of the Osttruppen serving on the Eastern Front been represented? Probably not. There were all kinds of "ants" raised from the local populace (mostly "security" troops), especially Cossacks, but as El Hefe has stated, do you really want that drain on your manpower pool? At some point in time, you have to stop, and call it "good." If you want to add units, we have an editor, as glvaca has done.

Brad

[Montbrun]

ORIGINAL: glvaca

ORIGINAL: el hefe

Consider the second and third order of effects with adding these new units. First, ask yourself do you want replacements siphoned off from your SS and Panzer Divisions to man the 650th Volksgrenadier Division which hardly saw any combat? Will most people even use these units or will they be disbanded for their replacements? If the answer is no but we still want these units, then we have to figure out how to man these units through manpower and create special squads for each nationality. Then you have to consider these security and police units which could unbalance the whole abstracted partisan conflict. If Joel thinks these additions are worthy of the programming time, I would be happy to add them into the campaigns. Personally, I wouldn't want these units sucking up good manpower.

Trey

The question is, are we getting this manpower now? Not the Hiwi manpower, but the ethnic minoritiy manpower that fought for the Germans on the Eastern front.

Secondly, there are definitely regiment and brigade type units which are missing from the OoB. Also several German KG's and Mech Bat. are not in there (as far as I can tell from quickly checking) which could be VERY usefull to attach to Panzer divs, etc...

For instance (just an example) I remember the 16 Mot. Div in Operation Uranus had a regiment of 3 batt. of Cav. attached to help them patrol the open Flank (South Stalingrad).

Will it decisively influence the game? Maybe not, but this is hard core gaming, it adds flair and fun.

Concerning the manpower, 1 pool for these units seems like plenty, just add more to the pool to take them into account [:'(][:D][;)]

You won't see KGs in the Campaigns - maybe in the short scenarios - that was a design decision made a long time ago - split a division, and you have instant KGs.

[glvaca]

ORIGINAL: Brad Hunter
If you want to add units, we have an editor, as glvaca has done.

Brad

Some confusion here, haven't used the editor at all.

[Montbrun]

ORIGINAL: glvaca

ORIGINAL: Brad Hunter
If you want to add units, we have an editor, as glvaca has done.

Brad

Some confusion here, haven't used the editor at all.

LOL - sorry - I thought you had created those units.

[Steelers708]

ORIGINAL: Brad Hunter

ORIGINAL: Steelers708

ORIGINAL: Brad Hunter
Also, Hiwis were NOT officially authorized for units serving in the West.

Brad

Hi Brad,

I'm interested in the source for this as certainly by the time of Normandy most German units in France/Holland etc were authorized/had Hiwi's.

They may have had Osttruppen attached/assigned, but, Hiwis were not officially sanctioned. In the NARA docs, a clear distinction is made between the Kriegsgliederung for units serving in the East and West - units in the West were not officially authorized Hiwi. Did some units bring their Hiwi with them, when they were sent to the West for refit? Maybe. I've not found any definitive documentation on this, but I do know that most units in the West were authorized Osttruppen - mostly company-sized units, with some battalions, and a few regiment-sized units - and these units were armed - and surrendered en-masse at the first opportunity after the Allies landed.
Brad

I hate to disagree but they must have been authorized Hiwi's, I don't have access to my discs of German records at the moment but I've checked my copy of Niklas Zetterlings - Normandy 1944 - German Military Organization, Combat Power and Organizational Effectiveness, and whilst several infantry divisions do indeed have Osttruppen as organic units he also shows that some units formed in France in 1944 had Hiwi's e.g.

77. Infanterie Division - 1,410 Hiwi's with a footnote to: OB West 1a Nr. 4340/44 g.Kdos, 4.6.44, T311, R24, F7029127

84. Infantrie division - 1,378 Hiwi's with a footnote to: OB West 1a Nr. 4772/44 g.Kdos, 20.6.44, T311, R24, F7029678

There are quite a few others but these 2 examples will suffice I think.

[Montbrun]

Yup - a "Type 44" Infanterie Division was authorized 1466 Hiwi.

[glvaca]

ORIGINAL: Brad Hunter

ORIGINAL: glvaca

ORIGINAL: Brad Hunter
If you want to add units, we have an editor, as glvaca has done.

Brad

Some confusion here, haven't used the editor at all.

LOL - sorry - I thought you had created those units.

[X(]

[abulbulian]

I hope to see the role of the Hiwis expanded in WitE. I read that about 1.5 million Hiwis served on the eastern front during the role. In many different capacities.