Death Ride to Russia: Q-Ball (Axis) v smokindave(Sov). 1.05 beta

[Flaviusx]

It is directly related to the IGOUGO nature of the system, yes.

Nowadays I'm favoring lifting the surprise turn penalties on SW Front. It's just a test dummy with the existing rules. I don't think this is right. The German can race down to Romania secure in the fact that the Soviet cannot move or fight on turn 1 due to the suprise attack turn penalties. The movement penalty especially is crippling: you're not going to get anything done with 12 MP mobile units and 6 MP infantry. By turn 2 when this goes away it is far too late.

The German is in a position to massively leverage these penalties on turn 1 for going all in in the south, while at the same time having more than enough to accomplish historical pockets further north. It's a no brainer. And that's why it's being done in each and every single game.

If the German had to contend with an alerted SW Front, then things get more interesting. Right now we are treating is as the same kind of zombie that NW and Western front are, and this seems wrong to me.

[Encircled]

We are in danger of clogging up this AAR here

Maybe it should be moved to the War Room?

[glvaca]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Turn 3

I wonder if the SW Front is better served pulling back to the Dnepr/Krivoi Rog, and fighting THERE. Allow the Germans to quickly gobble up space, but also reach the end of their logistical tether, and THEN fight.

100% with you on this one. When the Sovs fight forward in the South, as an Axis player, it's yummie time!

[glvaca]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

I'm getting thoroughly irritated by this whole Lvov pocket business and think it's time to make some changes here. It's just way too easy to pummel SW Front.

Correction, if Soviet players resist the temptation to fight forward, it ain't that easy. Well, that's IMHO off course!

[glvaca]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

It is directly related to the IGOUGO nature of the system, yes.

Nowadays I'm favoring lifting the surprise turn penalties on SW Front. It's just a test dummy with the existing rules. I don't think this is right. The German can race down to Romania secure in the fact that the Soviet cannot move or fight on turn 1 due to the suprise attack turn penalties. The movement penalty especially is crippling: you're not going to get anything done with 12 MP mobile units and 6 MP infantry. By turn 2 when this goes away it is far too late.

The German is in a position to massively leverage these penalties on turn 1 for going all in in the south, while at the same time having more than enough to accomplish historical pockets further north. It's a no brainer. And that's why it's being done in each and every single game.

If the German had to contend with an alerted SW Front, then things get more interesting. Right now we are treating is as the same kind of zombie that NW and Western front are, and this seems wrong to me.

Maybe we should look at it in the light of that it is far too difficult to achieve other historical pockets further down the road against a good Russian player?
And again, as the Russian, just resist the tempation to throw in more, because if you do, you're going to lose more.

[glvaca]

q-ball, I'd be very interested to see a commanders report filtered on the panzers. You've had quite a few helds, I'm wondering how their morale is at this point.

Thanks!

[M60A3TTS]

Now you tell me! [:(]
(I'm getting hammered in our PBEM because of that)

The Lvov pocket thing really should be addressed at some point. Everyone talks relative to history how easy it is to get Leningrad but forgets about Kiev. It took Guderian's PanzerGruppe link up with Von Kleist in September before the Soviet armies there were surrounded and destroyed. In this game as the Axis if you haven't stormed into Kiev by early August with AGS alone, there's something wrong with you.

ORIGINAL: glvaca

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

I'm getting thoroughly irritated by this whole Lvov pocket business and think it's time to make some changes here. It's just way too easy to pummel SW Front.

Correction, if Soviet players resist the temptation to fight forward, it ain't that easy. Well, that's IMHO off course!

[Q-Ball]

By the Numbers:

A few questions asked on numbers; here you go.

[timmyab]

A clear case of overcommitment in the south from BG.He only needed to commit a couple of mobile divisions to achieve 90% of what he actually did achieve.That is to cut off the panzer spearheads and re-establish supply to the Proskurov pocket for one turn at least,(the units in this pocket are dead).A nine or ten division pocket is acceptable every so often, twenty divisions not so much, especially when they're some of your strongest.
The thing about the forward defence is that it must be very solid with plenty of depth.As soon as you can no longer guarantee that solidity, then it's time to withdraw, even if it means leaving behind pocketed units.

[Tarhunnas]

Job Odebrecht

Odd Job? [;)] (If anyone remembers the guy in that old James Bond movie).

[ComradeP]

Although I agree that Bletchley Geek probably committed too many units, which also surprised me, I don't see it as all that much of a problem. The Soviets are mostly buying time at this point, and that's exactly what he's doing. Those extra pocketed divisions are not lost this turn, they're lost in the next turn.

As such, they also bought even more time as the infantry needs to spend MP's on cleaning them up, and to move through the hexes they occupy. With that in mind, Bletchley Geek's deployment isn't that bad, as it gives him the chance to create a 3-4 hex wide row of Soviet hexes, which will cost the Axis infantry about 9-12 MP's to move through alone, excluding the MP costs for actually forcing the units to surrender.

The infantry lagging behind will in turn increase the chance that the spearhead can be cut off again or that it can be attacked, as without infantry around to keep the Soviets busy, they can concentrate on attacking the spearhead.

So in short: yes, there are probably more units in that pocket than necessary between Proskurov and Vinnitsa, but it serves a purpose.

[timmyab]

ORIGINAL: ComradeP
As such, they also bought even more time as the infantry needs to spend MP's on cleaning them up, and to move through the hexes they occupy. With that in mind, Bletchley Geek's deployment isn't that bad, as it gives him the chance to create a 3-4 hex wide row of Soviet hexes, which will cost the Axis infantry about 9-12 MP's to move through alone, excluding the MP costs for actually forcing the units to surrender.

Yes I agree that there are some advantages to the all-in approach, that's why I said 90%, but not so much territory flipping.In fact a relief effort with two or three mobile divisions would flip just as much territory apart from one or two places where Soviet units have encroached on German ZOCs.The main disadvantage for the German is the need to go around the large area of encirclement.

Edit - No, actually I see what you mean.It will hold him up for longer because the panzers haven't automatically reflipped the hexes this turn.

[Q-Ball]

B-Gs commitment in the South will slow me up, mostly because it's very north-south, rather than east-west. My infantry will have to cross enemy hexes, which means they won't join the Panzer spearheads until turn 5. So it was successful from that aspect.

He probably didn't need to commit quite so many troops to do it. At this pace, I anticipate reaching the Dnepr with Infantry at Turn 7 at the latest, and I think he'll need to send more troops to the South, because alot of them are soon to be POWs.

Still, I think I am behind in this one the first 3 turns, for a couple reasons.

First, I pushed my Panzer spearheads ahead too far, so they could be cut-off

Second, B-G's dispositions were very good, particularly North of the Pripet, where they are extremely good. The only thing is that I saw ALOT more Russians than I could ever assemble without using RR capacity Turn 2; so I wonder if B-G used alot of RR capacity. I think he did, because looking at all the cities, I saw almost no industry evacuated. Hopefully, that will come back to haunt him.

The Industry is still all there in Kiev, Gomel, and Odessa, which should be about the first to go.

[Flaviusx]

Q-ball: I mostly don't start evacuation until turn 3 myself. Virtually all rail goes for troop movements. With the 50% rail cap penalty applying on turn 2, and with a desperate need to get your reserves forward, something has to give. You've only got 70k rail cap to play with or so. (Usually a bit less since some stuff is in transit.)

Now from turn 3 onwards, I'm pumping 100k+ rail cap into evacuations.

[janh]

Hmmh, will B-G's focus on getting the reinfs forward buy him more time than one turn?  If so, then he has gained a head-start for the industry evacs.  If not, he just wasted a quite lot of reserves.

[timmyab]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Q-ball: I mostly don't start evacuation until turn 3 myself. Virtually all rail goes for troop movements. With the 50% rail cap penalty applying on turn 2, and with a desperate need to get your reserves forward, something has to give. You've only got 70k rail cap to play with or so. (Usually a bit less since some stuff is in transit.)

Now from turn 3 onwards, I'm pumping 100k+ rail cap into evacuations.

Yeah, pretty much the same here.The most I've got out on turn two is 1 HI and 1 Arm.And even that's only by being economical with troop movements.I try to get 110K+ of industry moved from turn 3 on.

[ComradeP]

Previously, I would normally evacuate all of Mogilev's factories on turn 2, but that's no longer on the menu now that recent changes make it more crucial for more units to be at or near the front ASAP.

[Q-Ball]

Turn 4: 7/2/41

AGN and AGC:

Progress in these areas was limited by Fuel, and also limited by our infantry playing catch-up. It's pretty difficult to sustain an advance with only Panzers, and I think pretty much impossible after the first couple turns. Maybe I shouldn't be disappointed, it's to be expected that I grind to a halt.

AGN:

Had I to do it over, I would have swung further south of Pskov, instead of bull-rushing it. I did clear the town turn 4, so it's not a complete disaster, and I have a full Panzer Corps on HQ Buildup this turn, so next turn we should see some movement.

The Russians seem to have bugged-out alot of the units around Pskov. I sent some recon to figure out where, but I can guess well enough.

Next turn, we should have some infantry support, so things should improve.

2nd Army:

I did with 2nd Army what most people do: I sent it between 9th and 16th. If you don't do that, a pretty large gap develops eventually, so this seems necessary.

At this point, 2nd Army though is only 5 divisions; I plan to give them the Static Divisions, but this is Army is not really an offensive one.

I have sent 2 Infantry Division reinforcements to AGS, and 3 or 4 to AGN.

AGC:

Between my mis-handling of HQ buildup for the 1 Panzer Corps of Pz Gp2, and the fact that I sent the other two Panzer Corps to the south, means Pz Gp 3 is working alone at this point. Which means, it's bogging down.

Fuel is a problem of course. I managed to fly-in alot by NOT using any planes on ground support at all, and saving all bombers for fuel, but even doing that there is a limited amount you can accomplish. As a result, we were able to close up the Dnepr, take Mogilev, and bump a couple units, but that's it. Next turn, we attack in force, when I have some infantry support.

Minsk was finally liquidated, with 2 divisions surrendering.

LUFTWAFFE: I have turned-off ground support now for 2 turns; instead, I am flying massive bomber missions of fuel. Doesn't do a whole lot actually, but every bit helps. As resistance stiffens, and the RR gets closer, I will probably put it back on ground support missions.

[cherryfunk]

I'm curious, why reduce artillery to 50% TOE?
 

[Q-Ball]

ORIGINAL: cherryfunk

I'm curious, why reduce artillery to 50% TOE?

Because Armament points are dear; at game-start, I had a pool of 600,000 for Germany. That is now down to 179,000, and falling each turn, so I will run out shortly. I would rather keep Rifles in the line than artillery at this point. When production increases after winter, I'll turn Artillery back-on.

Turn 4: South

I think BG posted an update on the big happening: He broke my massive pocket around Proskurov. I didn't think he could do it, because I only saw weak units, and I made it so he would have to "flip" a hex before attacking, making Deliberate attacks all but impossible.

Several bombing runs on GD Mot Regt, followed by 3 hasty attacks, did it. The first two were near suicidal, and just increased fatigue, the last one barely tipped it over.

Tip of the hat to BG, that put my timetable seriously behind in the south. I ended up bumping a couple units just to reduce the pocket sizes, but I didn't want to wholesale rout them. I managed to move infantry around both sides, but it's still putting me a turn behind.

So, mostly my turn was about salvaging something positive out of this problem. That meant further push east, and moving infantry around the pocket, and closing it shut for good this time.

We pushed a number of weak units that routed or retreated, and I also punched HQ buildup for 1 corps of 1st Panzer on the other side of the pocket. I pushed a bit east to give us a head-start, and also cut the rails to Odessa.


Around Kirovgrad, I had a decision to make; do I clear the 3 Arm and 3 HI there, but leave a couple units likely to get cut-off, or do I "play it short"? I decided to play it short and put them on HQ Buildup, so we should be able to run rampant next turn in the South, after I liquidate the pockets that is. What would you have done: Gone for the industry, or held up?

I miscaluclated the LVOV pocket; it still has like 10 divisions in there. I have intentionally left it alone to move infantry East, and leave it for the Axis Allies, who will now reduce it in earnest starting turn 5. They aren't going anywhere.