Japanese Escort Discussion

[Mike Solli]

Ok guys, lets start another discussion, this time on escorts. I think this one is easier, at least the way I look at them. Here's some info on them to start:

[Xargun]

You can't just post that and not say anything else [:D]

Xargun

[Chickenboy]

Was thinking that myself...[;)]

[Mike Solli]

I look at them from a pretty simplistic viewpoint: Endurance and DC racks.

First off, I like to form my escorts into divisions of 3-4 each. Then I form squadrons of up to 4 divisions with a CL leader, much like the Japanese did historically.

I also divide my DDs into old and new, based on the torpedo type. All the Type 93 are new and the rest are old. That makes new DDs as follows:

Shiratsuyu (10)
Hatsuharu (6)
Akitsuki (0+)
Yugumo (2+)
Kagero (18)
Asashio (10)
Fubuki I (9)
Fubuki II (10)
Akatsuki (Fubuki III) (4)
Mutsuki (12)

The rest are old.

Lets start at the beginning, KB escorts. To me, the Shiratsuyus (10) and Hatsuharus (6) are the logical choice because of their 6000 endurance. There are 16 of them making a nice squadron. As I get Yugumo and Akitsuki reinforcements, they'll form a second squadron with the Akitsukis eventually forming their own squadron. To me it's all endurance to slow down the frequency of refueling.

Now, Baby KB doesn't really need long ranged escorts because they are pretty much a 1-2 shot deal, then they need to go home to rearm. I figure they get a squadron to themselves. Initially, say the Mutsukis (12) after they upgrade in 2/42 and get DCs.

The Battle fleet needs probably a squadron to start. Lets say 12 Kageros and 4 Akatsukis. Their 5k endurance is nice.

Now we need some escorts for the DEI (probably based in Singapore so they can also be used to keep an eye on the Brits and Truk, for the 4 Fleet and SE Fleet areas. If you give them each a squadron, one will get 6 Kageros and 10 Asashios and the other will get the Fubuki I & IIs (19). Note that the Fubuki Is upgrade (to the Fubuki II) in Jan 42. They need to be ready to go at that time. I like to have them in port ready so as soon as Jan 42 comes they go into upgrade. Same with the Mutsukis in Feb 42.

Now we need escorts for the AOs. I divide them into 2 groups, the fast and slow AOs. The fast AOs are 18 kts and the slow are 13 kts. I like to give the Kamikazes (9) to the fast group and Ansyu-Cs to the slow group.

What does that leave for the remaining escorts? They form ASW groups or escort merchant convoys, based on endurance. Anything under 2k endurance are ASW convoys guarding specific port areas, choke points or critical SLOCs. It is possible (and necessary) to use some of them in convoys but the convoys have to have short distances between ports or they continually slow the convoy down to refuel. Not good. We get a lot of the short range SCs. I usually form them into 4 ship ASW TFs and push them out into areas where I want ASW support.

There's one critical question here. When do all of you convert some of your DDs to APD and why? I'm still not convinced.

Have at it guys. Just my initial thoughts....

[SuluSea]

Another good thread Mike!! [:)] 

I may be the last guy most want to listen to from this side but the tradeoff to APD to DD it seems the manueverabilty loss would make it more vulnerable to the allied undersea scourge. At first glance I'd rather use regular vessels as FT forgoing the added APD transport benefits and let the DDs go thru their upgrade cycles plus keeping their manuever benefit. My studying tells me the Wakatake's are alittle different and want to upgrade them to "E" class escorts.

At any rate I'm all ears and looking to learn from veterans of this side. Thanks!

I'll put up some visuals incase anyone wants to print them up.

[SuluSea]

[SuluSea]

[topeverest]

IMHO APD's are a must in early and mid war. Worth the tradeoff IME, but then restasking away from fleet and ASW missions does have a cost. The supply and 'annoying' strike ability is important IMHO.

[PaxMondo]

I'll take the other side of the fence for grins and giggles - haven't had much use for APD's. Kami xAKL's work better for me.

[Mike Solli]

I'm still on the fence. I can't see how they carry enough troops to matter.

[topeverest]

Agreed you cant move large numbers of troops, but they are tailor made to move a sinlge unit fast and moderate amounts of supply. That can be very, very useful early and mid war when a single unit or smaller amoutns of supply can make a big difference if moved quickly --- and I dont want to risk other larger ships.

I would agree that you can survive without APD, but it is an excellent tool for the above referenced missions.

[Mike Solli]

I don't disagree with you topeverest. Question: Once a conversion is made to APD, can it convert back? I think the answer is no....

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

I'll take the other side of the fence for grins and giggles - haven't had much use for APD's. Kami xAKL's work better for me.

I think so too. I try to keep as many genuine combatants for...well...combat. I let the cargo-ish xAKLs, et. al. (escorted by E or PBs) do their thing.

As for DD escort...MAYBE for a valuable AO replenishment TF, but I've too few DDs for escort duty by and large.

My criteria: long-range (6000 and 5000) DDs are right out for anything other than Air Combat escort of SCTF escort. Anything with somewhat less range that packs the 61cm torpedo will be reserved for air combat or SCTF escort. The rest are for shorter range raiding groups (with a CL or CA & CL together), a rare ASW appearance or the occasional AO or TK escort support.

[Rainer79]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

I don't disagree with you topeverest. Question: Once a conversion is made to APD, can it convert back? I think the answer is no....

No, you can't convert back. I am also firmly in the "don't convert" camp. If I need a FT mission a PB is nearly as useful and its loss doesn't hurt as much when the FT TF decides to commit suicide (which it still does with some regularity).

You do get some purpose-built APDs late in the war BTW.

[Miller]

In my experience the fast transport routine does not work very well sometimes so I tend not to covert any of the older DDs to APDS, but will convert them to E later on.

The minekaze DD makes a decent nuisance surface raider in its original form if it can get close in at night and use its weaker torps at close range.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

I'll take the other side of the fence for grins and giggles - haven't had much use for APD's. Kami xAKL's work better for me.

I think so too. I try to keep as many genuine combatants for...well...combat.

That is exactly my reasoning as well. But, I'm not that good of a player. I put DD"s into harms' way frequently. Doing so means I go through a lot of them. As I play IJ mostly, that is consistent with their tactics; while extremely conservative with capital ships, the IJN was rarely afraid to run what I would consdier high risk/high reward op's with their DD's.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Miller

In my experience the fast transport routine does not work very well sometimes ...

Interesting. Not had this expereince. When I play Nik's Guad scen, I use FT DD's (shortage of xAK in that mod and you are given so many DDT's). My experience is that the FT routine works quite well for me. I can get them to run from Rebaul to Lae/Buna very effectively, except for the small loads.

Now I'm worried that I am just lucky when I do that. What error rate are you seeing in the routine?

[Miller]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: Miller

In my experience the fast transport routine does not work very well sometimes ...

Interesting. Not had this expereince. When I play Nik's Guad scen, I use FT DD's (shortage of xAK in that mod and you are given so many DDT's). My experience is that the FT routine works quite well for me. I can get them to run from Rebaul to Lae/Buna very effectively, except for the small loads.

Now I'm worried that I am just lucky when I do that. What error rate are you seeing in the routine?

This was mine and my opponents opinion in my last game which ended about 18 months ago. Far too often the FT fleet would be caught during the day by enemy air, either still at the drop off hex or within a couple of hexes of it. Of course this may have been fixed in a recent patch or beta version. I rarely try and use them in my current game, too scared of the outcome........

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: Miller

In my experience the fast transport routine does not work very well sometimes so I tend not to covert any of the older DDs to APDS, but will convert them to E later on.

I agree with you here, Miller. I love the E. Very nice ASW for the most part.

[Puhis]

ORIGINAL: Rainer79

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

I don't disagree with you topeverest. Question: Once a conversion is made to APD, can it convert back? I think the answer is no....

No, you can't convert back. I am also firmly in the "don't convert" camp. If I need a FT mission a PB is nearly as useful and its loss doesn't hurt as much when the FT TF decides to commit suicide (which it still does with some regularity).

You can't convert them back to DD, but all DD based APDs can be convert to E. That conversion is available sometimes after the first upgrade (4/43 Kamikaze, 1/43 Mutsuki and Minekaze, 12/43 Momi and 2/43(?) Wakatake).

Usually I'll convert all Minekazes to APDs, but not any other type of DDs.


EDIT: Updated conversion months.