Japanese R&D

[Numdydar]

Could someone draw me a flow chart lol. As how the hell would ANY R&D factory ever be be able to get 3 points the way it is now (or soon will be)?

It is reasonable to get a 30(0) R&D factory at some point in the game. I currently have several that are fully repaired.

So step a1 could give me 1 or 2 points with only a 1/30 chance of 2

a2 then randonizes this even further by taking the 1 or 2 points and generationg yet ANOTHER random number between 1 and 2 BUT ONLY if the magic die roll of step a1 produced a 2 result. Otherwise you got a 1. I.E. a 1 result in a1 results in a 1 result in a2

In step b it divides the result in a2 by 10. So it makes absoulutly NO difference of a 1 or a 2 result in either a1 or a2 as this step will ALWAYS give a 0 result. This will be the course of any game I am familar with. I have not seen anyone be able to get over 270 fully repaired R&D factories. Remember, this code works on a factory by factory basis. So a SINGLE R&D factory would have to 270 or larger. This is beyond absurd.

However because we passed the step in a1, the R&D Gods take pity on us and provide 1 point for our efforts.

I would suggest that this enitrie section of code be totally scrapped as just say for every 30(0) R&D factory you have you get 1 point. Because there is no way when you divide by 10 in b you will ever get more than 0.


What I suggest is that this code was set up this way for when R&D factories in the old game could repair at the 1/day as product ones do. As that way you could have VERY large R&D factories in a reasonable time. However, when they changed the repair rate of R&D factories to be harder and more randomized, this code was left. Have no clue it this is really true or not, but certainly makes more sense than the process we have now.

[pompack]

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

Could someone draw me a flow chart lol. As how the hell would ANY R&D factory ever be be able to get 3 points the way it is now (or soon will be)?

It is reasonable to get a 30(0) R&D factory at some point in the game. I currently have several that are fully repaired.

Well, this was covered in intensive detail earlier, but I don't have a clue about how to find it. So I'll wing it.

Basically, if you want to get a number of 30(0) R&D factories working to accelerate 1944 a/c, it's really quite simple

1. Trace the upgrade path BACKWARD from the plane you want (call it Px) to one due in a couple of months (call it P1)
2. Set up your R&D sites to P1 and increase each one to an eventual size of 30
3. Sit back until P1 is almost due
4. CHANGE every R&D side from P1 to P2, the next a/c after P1 in the chain that leads to Px
5. Repeat as each interim a/c gets close to bingo
6 WHEN each site reaches 30(0), change it ONE STEP AT A TIME along the upgrade path to Px

Basis:
A. R&D sites repair faster when the target a/c is nearly due
B. Change R&D sites EXACTLY, STEP BY STEP along an upgrade path does not damage them

[inqistor]

ORIGINAL: michaelm
(a.1) Daily number of initial devices from factory is as with a/c production [ (active devices + random(30))/30]. If this number is 0, or there are any damaged devices present, then no R&D will result this turn from this factory. [This agrees with the manual ]
(a.2) A factory will then produce a random R&D between 1 and the number of devices from step (a.1) ie 1 device = 1, 2 devices = 1,2, 3 devices =1,2,3, 4 devices = 1,2,3,4 10 devices = 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10 etc.
(b) The random R&D is then divided by 10. Any random R&D of less than 10 will be '0', otherwise it will be the ten's component of the random R&D.
(c) If there are no damaged devices in factory (this is a given as there must be NO damaged ones present), add '1' to the number from (b).
(d) If the number from (c) exceeds 3, it is capped at '3'.

My bad. I have written without brackets, and everyone believed [:D]

ORIGINAL: Numdydar
In step b it divides the result in a2 by 10. So it makes absoulutly NO difference of a 1 or a 2 result in either a1 or a2 as this step will ALWAYS give a 0 result. This will be the course of any game I am familar with. I have not seen anyone be able to get over 270 fully repaired R&D factories. Remember, this code works on a factory by factory basis. So a SINGLE R&D factory would have to 270 or larger. This is beyond absurd.

Yeah, procedure seems to be complete waste of time, because every factory between 30, and 270 will produce ALWAYS 1 point per day.
Since this is not board game, I would prefer for EVERY extra point to be better. So I would propose change whole procedure to this:
(a.2) random R&D is chosen between 0, and current factory_size+production from (a.1), so:
RANDOM(factory_size+(a.1))

(b) divide (a.2) by 30, and round this down

That way, factory of size 30, will behave, as previously. Factory of size 60, will research by around 50% faster, and factory of size 90, will research 2 times as fast, as size 30. Afterward it will be better, but with dimnishing returns, as maximum number will be capped at 3.

[darbycmcd]

I appreciate very much the time everyone put into helping clarify this for me. I always thought it was just the same as normal aircraft production, aside from the fact that only fully repaired factories produced points. So it was helpful to have more info. Thanks!

[FeurerKrieg]

I have no problem with the code as it is currently. I think 1 R&D pt per day is plenty. Does it help to simplify the code? Maybe, but if it ain't broke don't fix it right?

I'm just glad that I now know, definitively and not just based on testing/speculation, that 30(0) is the sweet spot and if I want to do better than that I'd have to go up to 270(0).

Let's not forget that if you have ten 30(0) factories you will be cranking out 10 R&D points PER DAY, and you can advance very quickly, probably too quickly for some, but if you are advancing ONE model that fast, you will be limited on how much you can work on any others, so it is probably well balanced as it stands now.

Don't change it!!

It might be nice to see in the Aircraft pool screen how many R&D points are currently accumulated though...

[inqistor]

Thinking of it...
 
 
Japanese planes, which have research factories set at start, should have availability dates set few months AFTER their historical arrival, to include this research which will be done, if player do NOT change anything.
 
As this is now, every model will arrive at its historical date, or earlier, even when player do not invest as much R&D, as Japan during war.

[Herrbear]

DELETED AS I WAS WRONG IN MY INTERPRETATION OF HOW IT WAS TO WORK.

[n01487477]

ORIGINAL: Feurer Krieg

I have no problem with the code as it is currently. I think 1 R&D pt per day is plenty. Does it help to simplify the code? Maybe, but if it ain't broke don't fix it right?

I'm just glad that I now know, definitively and not just based on testing/speculation, that 30(0) is the sweet spot and if I want to do better than that I'd have to go up to 270(0).

I've been telling people that since witp-stock, it was based on ...

Let's not forget that if you have ten 30(0) factories you will be cranking out 10 R&D points PER DAY, and you can advance very quickly, probably too quickly for some, but if you are advancing ONE model that fast, you will be limited on how much you can work on any others, so it is probably well balanced as it stands now.

Don't change it!!

YES - don't change it - it's easy enough now with multiple factories. There is plenty of evidence in previous threads about long range advancement. This system is easier than stock because of the upgrade system.
It's OK if you disagree with my assertion. I'll outline why I think changes should be made to the realistic mode, if not both systems.
1. I have nothing against moving the R&D to the next upgrade, as this would reflect technical upgrades, but I do have an issue with moving more than 1 upgrade at a time. Going from the M3a to the M8 without having to research each successive innovation is in my mind not how research in the real world works. Researchers don't usually skip generations. Maybe I'm wrong about this but it just seems to game the system.
2. If the present system is kept then there also should be a reduction in productive R&D capacity as each upgrade path is worked. ie. M3a 30(0) -> M5 20(0) -> M5a 14(0). This would reflect a tiered approach and reduction in R&D for each movement along the curve.
3. Overall, it is too easy at present for someone who knows the system well to get some planes years in advance and others many months in advance - & that is something I think should be arrested. Esp. for realistic research.

It might be nice to see in the Aircraft pool screen how many R&D points are currently accumulated though...

You can see it now on the mouse-over in the Industry screen as a percentage. Michael has put it in, so I'm going to put it in Tracker for the next release...
Having said that I kinda liked the mystique of not knowing [;)]

[Numdydar]

ORIGINAL: Feurer Krieg

I have no problem with the code as it is currently. I think 1 R&D pt per day is plenty. Does it help to simplify the code? Maybe, but if it ain't broke don't fix it right?

I'm just glad that I now know, definitively and not just based on testing/speculation, that 30(0) is the sweet spot and if I want to do better than that I'd have to go up to 270(0).

Let's not forget that if you have ten 30(0) factories you will be cranking out 10 R&D points PER DAY, and you can advance very quickly, probably too quickly for some, but if you are advancing ONE model that fast, you will be limited on how much you can work on any others, so it is probably well balanced as it stands now.

Don't change it!!

It might be nice to see in the Aircraft pool screen how many R&D points are currently accumulated though...

Do have any idea of how long it will take to get 10 R&D factories to 30(0)? Also, the further away the historical date of the plane arivial date is there is a MUCH higher chance there will be 0 repair. I still have R&D factories that have not gotten a single point repaired in 18 months of game play.

As I have been aggressively trying to accelerate planes, I have exactly 2 factories that are fully repaired that are 30 or higher (one 55, the other 32) The rest are still danaged (so zero points) or are fully repaired but in the 5-15 range with most under 10.

Also after 18 months of play I have a whopping total of 33 out of 106 R&D factories that are fully repaired. With the vast majority of the 33 producing under 10/month i.e (under 10(0)). So your example of having 10 factories of 30(0) is not a reasonable expectation. This is with planning out using the next plane in squence (I have a thread on that too [:)]) as someone suggested above.

I should also point out that even if the available date is only one month away for an airframe, it still reapirs at a much slower rate that is nowhere close to the 1/day that production factories enjoy. Although they do repair faster than a plane that is 6 months or longer away. So there is a cap on how fast R&D factories can repair regardless of the availability data.

[pompack]

EDIT:

Post deleted in the interests of forum harmony

[n01487477]

ORIGINAL: Numdydar


Do have any idea of how long it will take to get 10 R&D factories to 30(0)? Also, the further away the historical date of the plane arivial date is there is a MUCH higher chance there will be 0 repair. I still have R&D factories that have not gotten a single point repaired in 18 months of game play.

WAD - the longer away the harder to repair... seems fair to me. DOn't expect to get those '45 factories repairing anytime soon in '42-mid-'43. Although I've seen some points repair in that time too.

I refer you to this thread that was written a while ago.
fb.asp?m=2254687
Now that Michael has broken the silence on R&D and given a way for you guys to test more thoroughly - well I'm sure you'll find the sweet spot on when to start repairing. I already know pretty well.

As I have been aggressively trying to accelerate planes, I have exactly 2 factories that are fully repaired that are 30 or higher (one 55, the other 32) The rest are still danaged (so zero points) or are fully repaired but in the 5-15 range with most under 10.

WEll you should have taken better advice [;)] and made them 30's ...

Also after 18 months of play I have a whopping total of 33 out of 106 R&D factories that are fully repaired. With the vast majority of the 33 producing under 10/month i.e (under 10(0)). So your example of having 10 factories of 30(0) is not a reasonable expectation. This is with planning out using the next plane in squence (I have a thread on that too [:)]) as someone suggested above.

You're telling me - that this is the same plane or a mix of R&D planes ? Let's look at the specific numbers ...
10* 30(0) factories are achievable - I've done it as have plenty of other people. We just don't expect it to be

I should also point out that even if the available date is only one month away for an airframe, it still reapirs at a much slower rate that is nowhere close to the 1/day that production factories enjoy. Although they do repair faster than a plane that is 6 months or longer away. So there is a cap on how fast R&D factories can repair regardless of the availability data.

This is true, but one month out and you're going to not get any advancement anyway... this is WAD and I like it.

Numdydar - I like the enthusiasm that you have brought back to the debate, but I will be arguing each point with you as I have time. This is not to be uncivil, but as a process of debate where either a better system is thought of or the status-quo maintained and enhanced.

Cheers and no hard feelings I hope

[Numdydar]

Nope. You're cool.

I have been trying to get all to 30 lol. But would rather get half of 30 rather than wait for the extra to get fixed. Getting 5-15 points /month is better than waiting longer to get 30/month imho.

I totally agree with the further out the harder to repair.

As the game has evolved from launch, getting a lot of factories to 30(0) may have been more easily done, but that is not the case now. So it is hard to say that 'hey we did it why can't you?' or ' they accelerated a plane by a year, why aren't you doing that?' when a lot of people are playing very different versions of the game. I'm not saying that is the case, but it is very hard to do a proper analysis when the base is not the same for everyone.

Actually if a plane is one month away, it can very much so get an advance as it happened to me [:)]. I had a plane scheduled to be available in 2/43. I was waiting until later in 1/43 to change it to the next plane in squence To my surprise, half way through Jan, they start showing up in my pool. I checked and all the R&D factories had swiitched to production [X(] I was NOT a happy camper lol. Since then I have paid a MUCH closer attention to when they switch [:)] Of course it helps that Michael has color coded them to be highlighed when they are within 45 days of conversion [:D]

[n01487477]

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

Nope. You're cool.

I have been trying to get all to 30 lol. But would rather get half of 30 rather than wait for the extra to get fixed. Getting 5-15 points /month is better than waiting longer to get 30/month imho.

I totally agree with the further out the harder to repair.

Have you also considered that (as I've stated before) a larger factory repairs faster than a smaller factory? But the downside being that there is more to repair. There is an overlap (correlation) between the two that make larger and smaller meet somewhere in the middle. I did some testing a while back and found they end up being repaired fully around the same time... although it was a while ago and I'm foggy on it now. So while they're harder to repair, size does matter.

As the game has evolved from launch, getting a lot of factories to 30(0) may have been more easily done, but that is not the case now. So it is hard to say that 'hey we did it why can't you?' or ' they accelerated a plane by a year, why aren't you doing that?' when a lot of people are playing very different versions of the game. I'm not saying that is the case, but it is very hard to do a proper analysis when the base is not the same for everyone.

Sure - but I guess the next time you'll be better informed on the mechanics. If we don't learn the lessons of the game we are sure to repeat them...[edit]Actually that sounds a bit patronizing. Sorry.

Actually if a plane is one month away, it can very much so get an advance as it happened to me [:)]. I had a plane scheduled to be available in 2/43. I was waiting until later in 1/43 to change it to the next plane in squence To my surprise, half way through Jan, they start showing up in my pool. I checked and all the R&D factories had swiitched to production [X(] I was NOT a happy camper lol. Since then I have paid a MUCH closer attention to when they switch [:)] Of course it helps that Michael has color coded them to be highlighed when they are within 45 days of conversion [:D]

Yeah - I was wrong in saying that. Of course planes can R&D mid-month or any time. But you need to have the points accumulating. Not just a one off factory still repairing.

Cheers

[Numdydar]

Have you also considered that (as I've stated before) a larger factory repairs faster than a smaller factory? But the downside being that there is more to repair. There is an overlap (correlation) between the two that make larger and smaller meet somewhere in the middle. I did some testing a while back and found they end up being repaired fully around the same time... although it was a while ago and I'm foggy on it now. So while they're harder to repair, size does matter.

If there are more damaged factories, they will have a greater chance to have a one point repair simply due to the number of chances invilved as each damaged factory is rolled for seperately. The more rolls, the move likely a repair will happen. However, as the number of damaged factories approches zero, you have the same odds of getting that last point repaired as if it was a 0(1) factory. Because as far as the repair routine is concerned it is the same. I.E only one chance to repair. So the perception is that larger factories repair faster and they do to a point, but it slows down as the limit <-0.

Of course I thought I uderstood the acceleration process very well too, lol. So it would not surprise me if my understanding of the R&D factory repair system was totally wrong as well [:)]

[michaelm75au]

One idea I was toying around with for q4 before all this came up, was the idea of a +1 to R&D if the pool of engines for the R&D a/c was over a certain limit. My thought was that this could be treated as a source of a 'test flight' type bonus and if given, a number of the engines would be used up based on the actual R&D produced from that factory.

However, once the base code was corrected, I noticed that in all most every case this +1 was getting used on the saves I had to test against, and ended up with a 3 R&D per factory.

This seemed a bit excessive and tended to get back to the high R&D levels again. It might be reasonable as an overall affect, rather than a per factory one.
The other observation was that the engine pools of the R&D a/c tend to be production pools also, which meant the bonus was another 'given/freebie'.

[kmitahj]

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

Have you also considered that (as I've stated before) a larger factory repairs faster than a smaller factory? But the downside being that there is more to repair. There is an overlap (correlation) between the two that make larger and smaller meet somewhere in the middle. I did some testing a while back and found they end up being repaired fully around the same time... although it was a while ago and I'm foggy on it now. So while they're harder to repair, size does matter.

If there are more damaged factories, they will have a greater chance to have a one point repair simply due to the number of chances invilved as each damaged factory is rolled for seperately. The more rolls, the move likely a repair will happen. However, as the number of damaged factories approches zero, you have the same odds of getting that last point repaired as if it was a 0(1) factory. Because as far as the repair routine is concerned it is the same. I.E only one chance to repair. So the perception is that larger factories repair faster and they do to a point, but it slows down as the limit <-0.

Of course I thought I uderstood the acceleration process very well too, lol. So it would not surprise me if my understanding of the R&D factory repair system was totally wrong as well [:)]

This is not so. What matters for repair process is total size of the factory (sum of active and damaged devices) which is constant over whole repair process (unless you decide to expand in the middle - not good idea usually). In fact over time the chance of success is growing slowly because the second factor - number of days till plane arrival - is getting lower day by day.
And second as was said many times before because chance of repair depends on the FactorySize all factories repair from fully damaged to fully repaired state in about same time on average. No real reason to prefer small factories over 30 size. Of course in reality you will see large dispersion as usual for (kinda) stochastic process - some factories will finish repair and crank r&d points earlier some will lag behind expected average time. Thats live.
I think it is as it schould to be. Research must not be a low hanging fruit. One have to invest first and take his time before he got his reward [:)]
Note also that once the research process was demistifid thre is no more uncertainty in it. Using 30+ factories you can predict next month advance as well as final date of going into production basically up to a day. Only unpredictability left is now in the repair process. And unpredictability is good thing for research I dare to say.

[bk19@mweb.co.za]

ORIGINAL: n01487477

WAD - the longer away the harder to repair... seems fair to me. DOn't expect to get those '45 factories repairing anytime soon in '42-mid-'43. Although I've seen some points repair in that time too.

I clearly have not spent enough time posting in forums. This is now the second request of this type today I have posted.

What does WAD mean?

[n01487477]

ORIGINAL: bk19@mweb.co.za

ORIGINAL: n01487477
WAD - the longer away the harder to repair... seems fair to me. DOn't expect to get those '45 factories repairing anytime soon in '42-mid-'43. Although I've seen some points repair in that time too.

I clearly have not spent enough time posting in forums. This is now the second request of this type today I have posted.

What does WAD mean?
[/quote]
Working as designed and your other is Girl Friend Unit "GFU" (which I declined to reply as it seemed off topic in the patch thread) ...

Don;t worry the acronyms will become normal over time

Cheers

[bk19@mweb.co.za]

Thanks for the explanation Damian.

[pompack]

It has also been my observation that the GFU is one of the most frequently upgraded (or at least revised) items in the TO&E with the GFU Mk. VII being the most advanced cited to date. It seems that the GFU has a tendency to become seperated during periods of high WitP stress and rapid map movement.