YAMATOs

[inqistor]

Lots of interesting informations in both Yamato's TROMs. It seems, that in-game upgrades miss some modifications. YAMATO TROM, and MUSASHI TROM.
Yamato's have in-game upgrades at 9/43, 1/44, 7/44, and 1/45

Musashi:

3-28 September 1942:
Final fitting-out at Kure. MUSASHI’s initial AA suite is twelve 127-mm guns (6X2), twenty-four 25-mm guns (8x3) and four 13.2-mm machine guns (2X2). Twelve additional 25-mm guns (4X3) and a Type 21 radar are installed during this period.

While in-game radar comes in 9/43 upgrade. It seems to be actually typo, because at 9/43 both ships were out of Japan. And since Musashi arrives in December 1942, it should already include radar.

1 July 1943:
Kure. Enters drydock. Type 22 Mod. 4 radars are installed on the bridge. The Type 22 provides limited fire control.

Again, BEFORE September 1943.

24 February 1944:
Departs Yokosuka for Palau with MICHISHIO, SHIRATSUYU and another destroyer. MUSASHI is loaded with one Army battalion and one Special Naval Landing Force battalion, munitions, fuel and vehicles.Enroute, the group encounters a Typhoon and most of the deck cargo of munitions is lost. During the storm, MUSASHI has to reduce speed from 18 to six knots to allow her escorts to keep up.

Have not tried this yet, but is this possible to load ships without capacity? I surely can not do this with Allied CAs/DDs, as I tried to evacuate some units from Rabaul.

10 April 1944:
Enters Kure drydock No. 4. Repairs are made to the hull. Two beam triple 6.1-inch turrets are removed, each is replaced by three triple-mount 25-mm. AA guns. Twenty-one other triple-mount 25-mm. guns and 25 single 25-mm. guns are added. MUSASHI's 150-cm searchlights Nos. 7 and 8 are removed to make room for the single mounts. The searchlights are later reinstalled for use by Sasebo's AA batteries. MUSASHI's final AA suite is one hundred-thirty 25-mm AA guns (35x3, 25x1). A Type 13 radar and a new Type 22 radar-directed fire-control sets are fitted. Depth-charge rails are also installed on the fantail.

I am not sure DC works on BBs, but I see no reason not to. No DCs in-game.

Yamato:

12 July 1943:
Kure. Drydocked. A Type 21, Mod 3, air and surface search radar is installed. Twelve new (4x3) 25-mm AA guns are fitted on the weather deck. YAMATO's total 25-mm. AA suite is now 36 guns. Her 155-mm. wing mount guns are provided with coaming armor and their barbettes with 28-mm of additional armor. YAMATO's fuel storage is reduced and her main and auxiliary rudder controls are improved.

I am not sure if barbettes armor is included in turrets statistics, but if it is, either armor should be greater, with this upgrade, or initial turret armor should be lower.
Again, this is BEFORE September 1943.
The most interesting is last part. There should probably be difference in manuever rating, and endurance+fuel, between this, and previous upgrades.

13 December 1943:
The American code-breakers learn YAMATO is scheduled to arrive back at Truk on 25 December ferrying men and material.

Again, transport mission.

16 January 1944:
Arrives at Kure. Later, YAMATO is docked in No. 4 drydock to repair the torpedo damage to her hull and correct deficiencies in her armor belt. A sloping plate is fitted at a 45-degree angle across the lower corner of the upper void compartment between the two longitudinal inboard bulkheads. This modification, proposed to run the full length of the citadel, is installed only in YAMATO in the area affected by torpedo damage.

Does game takes into account sloped armor, or only its thickness?

25 February 1944:
Kure. BatDiv 1's YAMATO and MUSASHI are reassigned from the First Fleet to the Second Fleet.
Drydocked. Two beam triple 6.1 inch (155-mm.) turrets are removed and replaced by six (3x2) 5-inch (127-mm.) HA AA mounts. Twenty-four (8x3) and 26 single 25mm. AA mounts are added. Shelters are also added on the upper deck for the increased AA crews. Type 13 air search and Type 22, Mod 4, surface search/gunnery control radars are installed and the main mast is altered. Two 150-mm searchlights are removed and later installed ashore at Kure.

YAMATO is fitted with Type 2 infrared (IR) Identification Friend-or-Foe (IFF)/signaling devices mounted midway up on each side of the bridge. The system may have been based on the German Seehund IR device. It is built around a telescopic sensor that receives light-waves in the IR range and registers a readout in the radio shack. The system also includes a pair of 20-mm. binoculars coaxially mounted with the transmitting IR lamp on the bridge so that another ship can use the IR detector for elementary signaling or as a formation light for station keeping.

About this time, YAMATO is also fitted with multiple E27 radar detectors copied from the German FuMB 1 Metox R.600.

I am not sure what does every radar type in Allied inventory do (larger ships have 3 types of them).
Yamato takes upgrade in late February, and Musashi in early April, so this upgrade can be safely changed to February.

29 June-8 July 1944:
Departs Hashirajima for Kure with MUSASHI. Fifteen new (five triple-mount) 25mm. AA guns are installed. The entire hinoki deck is also replaced. YAMATO loads the 106th Infantry Regiment of the IJA's 49th Division and materials aboard.

25 November 1944:
Kure. Drydocked. Begins battle damage repairs and refit. Twenty-four older 25-mm AA single mounts are removed. Twenty-seven 25-mm AA guns (9 triple mounts) are fitted in their place. YAMATO's final AA complement is 152 25-mm AA guns (50 triple mounts, 2 single mounts).

Last in-game upgrade is scheduled at 1/45, and takes 18 days, which will put Yamato still in refit, when it already left at 15 January (and ended refit at 1st-3rd).

[DuckofTindalos]

It's too bad that you're so smart and the rest of us are so stupid.[8|]

[RevRick]

pa·tron·iz·ing
   [pey-truh-nahy-zing, pa-] Show IPA
adjective
displaying or indicative of an offensively condescending manner:

[Smeulders]

You know Terminus, by now nearly every long-term poster on this board knows that AE is very well researched and that if there is a discrepancy between the upgrade path suggested by these TROMs and the in-game upgrade path there is a very good reason for it. What would have added to this thread was an explanation of these reasons, lots of posters would be interested to learn something that way. Instead all we get are insults to a polite and researched (if probably misguided) post. I wouldn't fault a new poster for believing your sarcastic comment to be accurate, inqisitor does look like the better man in this exchange.

[John 3rd]

I'm impressed with the methodical nature and questions posed by inqistor's work. There is some serious thought and questions posed within it.

[inqistor]

In O-47(N)-2 description of 25mm MG turet, I have found part talking about blast shield for multi-mounts. So taking into account all this information (extra armor for 155 mm, DC racks, and protection for some 25mm), late-war Mutsu should look something like this:

The whole topic goal, is once again, to calculate a reasonable date for YAMATOs arival(and some date for Shinano hull launching), since wasting 300 production points, when they were already taking a sea training is not reasonable. Worst case scenario - include all fitting into production:

Yamato:

4 November 1937:
Kure Naval Arsenal. The keel of Battleship No. 1 is laid down.

8 August 1940:
Launched.

12 August 1941:
Departs Kure for trials.

5 September 1941:
Kure. Battleship No. 1 is fitting-out. Captain (later Vice Admiral) Miyazato Shutoku (former CO of NAKA) is posted as her Chief Equipping Officer.

21 December 1941:
Departs Kure. Arrives at Hiroshima Bay, Inland Sea. Anchors W of NAGATO at Hashirajima.

21 December 1941-10 February 1942:
Inland Sea. Final fitting-out. Deficiencies found are corrected at Kure. YAMATO's initial AA suite is twelve 127-mm guns (6x2), twenty-four 25-mm guns (8x3 enclosed mounts) and four 13.2-mm machine guns (2x2).

4 days, 9 months, and 2 years (roughly 33 months) until launch.

Thats puts YAMATO at 10 February 1942, but we should probably subtract all trials periods, which takes 8 August-4 September 1940, so whole construction took 38 months.



Musashi:

29 March 1938:
Nagasaki. Japan’s second super-battleship, unnamed "Battleship No. 2", is laid down at Mitsubishi Shipbuilding's yard.

1 November 1940:
Nagasaki. To maintain secrecy concerning this new class of super battleships, attendance at the launching ceremony for Battleship No. 2 is held to a few dozen top naval officals including the Chief of the Naval General Staff, Fleet Admiral Prince Hiroyasu Fushimi (former CO of IBUKI) [1], the CINC, Kure Naval District, Vice Admiral (later Admiral) Toyoda Soemu (former CO of HYUGA), Constructor Vice Admiral Kuwabara Shigeharu and various other officials of the Bureau of Naval Construction.

Battleship No. 2 is launched from the No. 2 slipway. As soon as she is in the water, new freighter KASUGA MARU (later converted to escort carrier TAIYO) is towed alongside the battleship to block her silhouette from any foreign eyes.

5 August 1942:
Battleship No. 2 is completed and named MUSASHI. She is registered in the Yokosuka Naval District three months late because of the requirement to be fitted as a flagship with additional communications gear. Captain Arima is assigned as the Commanding Officer. She is moved from Nagasaki to Kure for fitting-out.

MUSASHI is assigned to the Combined Fleet's BatDiv 1 with YAMATO, NAGATO and MUTSU.

10 August 1942:
MUSASHI arrives at Hashirajima where she carries out additional tests, such as full speed trials and maneuvering in the Iyo Nada, mooring and aircraft launch drills.

3-28 September 1942:
Final fitting-out at Kure. MUSASHI’s initial AA suite is twelve 127-mm guns (6X2), twenty-four 25-mm guns (8x3) and four 13.2-mm machine guns (2X2). Twelve additional 25-mm guns (4X3) and a Type 21 radar are installed during this period.

2 days, 7 months, and 2 years (roughly 31 months) until launch.

MUSASHI was available at 28 September 1942, but it was already 3 months late, because of communication gear installing. Although it can take some construcion point, it should be rather limited amount. So this is more like 28 September, but last 3 months would be upgrade period, not construction.
Sea tests were between 5 August-2 September 1942, so again month. Construction period 53 months (-3 extra).

SHINANO should be launched probably earlier, than after 31 months (considering continuous construction).

[DD696]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

It's too bad that you're so smart and the rest of us are so stupid.[8|]

Let's rephrase that a little:

It's too bad that you're so stupid and the rest of us are so smart.

There is nothing in your post that reflects anything but arrogance and bullying. Your signature "there is no middle finger big enough" is very true, providing you are pointing it at yourself. Obviously, you are simply feeling insecure in thinking that someone may challenge you on your opinions, since at one time you were the head of the AE naval team prior to being (how can we put this ever so gently), dismissed!

[SoliInvictus202]

ORIGINAL: DD696

ORIGINAL: Terminus

It's too bad that you're so smart and the rest of us are so stupid.[8|]

Let's rephrase that a little:

It's too bad that you're so stupid and the rest of us are so smart.

There is nothing in your post that reflects anything but arrogance and bullying. Your signature "there is no middle finger big enough" is very true, providing you are pointing it at yourself. Obviously, you are simply feeling insecure in thinking that someone may challenge you on your opinions, since at one time you were the head of the AE naval team prior to being (how can we put this ever so gently), dismissed!

na...don't bother posting such things - that's what the green button is for... - never thought I'd use it...but why not use it on someone who uses it himself a lot...

[DD696]

I have never used the "green button". Once I had a member of the AE team, can't remember just who but was something like a "Tomato Mugger" or something, tell me that I had better go to college to learn something about computer programming. This after I had retired at a quite early age (45) from being a Senior Systems Analyst. He sent me a very abusive personal message telling me that I should go to collage and learn something about programming and testing and immediately "green buttoned" me since he was fearful of any response by me. Naturally, any attempt to communicate on my part was not allowed by the "green button". It was quite the cowardly way out a conversation.

[SoliInvictus202]

ORIGINAL: DD696
It was quite the cowardly way out a conversation.

it is - but some people are simply not worth the effort...especially since you only get into trouble yourself for posting...

edit: I hope that can't be misunderstood...