V2 Battle of Nancy

[sweeteye]

Figured I might as well let everyone have a go at it. Many thanks to simovitch. Have deleted version one.Version two can be found in a post far below.

[wodin]

Excellent mate...your efforts are truely appreciated..

I'm hoping that some hardcore east front enthusiast gets hold of the game and makes a major mod...as I don't see and east front game being made by Panther sadly.

I love the game system...but the West front in WW2 has never really grabbed me. Now West front WW1 thats a massive obsession but not WW2, like I said it's the East Front I want to see.

[sweeteye]

Yes....absolutely....an Eastern front scenario would be great. I would love to do a map and scenario of Stalingrad. Perhaps before too long I could work on that one or some other interesting eastern front battle...Wish it did not take so much time to make maps...Hopefully more people will attempt to make maps and scenarios and release them.

[simovitch]

Excellent effort sweeteye.[:)] I have a few comments for your consideration:

1. Roads over streams do not require crossings. It is usually a good idea to just run the road/rail right over these.

2. You need to check to see if any of the roads got blocked out by the rivers. This happens when the road is placed to close to major or minor rivers. The terrain tables should be looked at closely for motorized movement.

3. I don't understand why some of your regiments have Bn structures while other just have a group of subordinate line companies.

4. Some of your companies are labeled as AT or heavy wpn but the estab is just a grenade company.

5. Your German panzergrenadier units are all (gp) type which means they are mechanized with halftracks. It is unlikely that even 25% of the grenadier companies in this battle were mechanized. You should use the motorized truck companies instead for 3/4ths of the pzgrn.

BFTB comes with ready-made force lists that have a good representation of the different units that fought during this period in NW Europe. This battle was fought right before a major reorganization of the German Divisional structures (i.e. Volksgrenadiers and 2-Bn Regiments) seen in the Bulge, but the US units are pretty much the same. You could save a lot of time just importing these into the Scenario maker and changing the regiment number.

That's it for now, hope this helps. Keep up the good effort.[8D]

[simovitch]

ORIGINAL: wodin

as I don't see and east front game being made by Panther sadly.

Not keeping up on current events wodin?

[sweeteye]

Thanks for the input simovitch. I will certainly take your notes into consideration. I have really struggled with creating the OOBs from scratch. I have taken my information from several sources I have found on the web and pieced together the OOBs.One such link is here: http://www.bayonetstrength.150m.com/German/german_army.htm

I will go back over the OOBs and try to correct them as you suggest.I did import the units for the German 3rd parachute regiment and the 92 Flieger regiment from stock organizations. I did haphazardly add a few infantry companies to the 92.I believe I need to take a closer look at the games unit organizations as I believe there are some areas I do not fully understand, or should I say leaving out..Something I just thought of : In the past the OOBs I have worked on in other games were American Civil War and Revolution and some Napoleonic period. Of course the organization and unit types were much simpler then... I think that is why I am inclined to have so many line companies in the regiments.

[sweeteye]

I was just looking some of the stock OOBs and comparing them to what I have so far for this scenario. I can see how I could make the OOBs much better. Seems I overlooked the fact that all of the American divisions needed for the scenario already exist in stock form. As for the Germans It is simply a matter of renaming the units except for the 92 flieger regiment. I will try to have a better version of the scenario as soon as possible. Should not take too long.

[ulisin]

I will try to have a better version of the scenario as soon as possible. Should not take too long.

Cool!
It's a ten day scenario? Very cool!! A lot of work, I suppose!!!

[sweeteye]

Here is the scenario and map with the corrected OOB as suggested by simovitch. It certainly looks much better now.The German part of the OOB could still use some work but it is better than before.The unit designations for the U.S. OOB are the same as the stock OOBs I imported...had to make no changes to the unit designations.The German OOB for the most part has been imported from stock ....only had to change the unit designations although with some of the artillery type units I could not change the unit designations due to lack of information. Overall it is much more realistic. I will adjust the bridges on the map before I release an updated version of the scenario. Seems to be the railroad bridges that need edited where the tracks cross streams. I only have road bridges over the minor rivers and canals... not sure if I want to edit the ones over the canals. Version one has been deleted.

[sweeteye]

Hello ulisin....Actually the scenario came together rather quickly...I estimate about sixteen hours of work plus an additional four hours to correct the OOB. Making the map was the most time consuming. The scenario will of course probably have to be adjusted after testing.

[wodin]

ORIGINAL: simovitch

ORIGINAL: wodin

as I don't see and east front game being made by Panther sadly.

Not keeping up on current events wodin?

Oh...erm...I'm lost for words...thats the best news Iv'e heard in a very, very longtime with regards to game development.

I never went back to that thread as I thought I may have upset JD. So stayed away from it.

Arjuna and your goodself as well as all the others who develop or help with development have my sincerest gratitude....thank you.

Why hasn't that post\news been shouted from the roof tops!

Will be superb if it coincides with an East front Combat Mission game...

@sweeteye...please, please I implore thee to make a stalingrad mod...alot of work though making a Russian OOB with weapons etc etc. still if you manage it you'd be a mod hero.

[sweeteye]

wodin...I have been thinking about what it would take to make a Stalingrad scenario.Seems like the map would be the easy part.As you have mentioned the Russian estab could prove to be difficult to make unless I could get some really good information on Russian weapons and vehicles.The OOB might not be too hard to make ....should be a lot of information available I would think.I know ulisin has suggested an Anzio scenario which would also be interesting....Have much work ahead of me....

[Lieste]

I'd 'do' the sideshows in the Western Theatre - possibly the follow-on from Dragoon, Shingle, Avalanche, Husky or Torch.

Each uses most/part of the existing Estab, extending it slightly further back in time, until Torch meets the end of the Desert Estabs.

Starting a new Estab is big work, and you would be duplicating on-going effort to attempt a parallel Eastern Front game... if you are really keen and have lots of data, and time to dedicate (and preferably can manage technical/military German &/or Russian) then offer your expertise to the Eastern Front DDT

Ultimately your choice, as you have the tools, but you can make more content in less time by modifying the existing data than by working from scratch.

Even working on a '44 Hungary scn would be 'easier' as you could at least re-use the German forces...
'42 Germans are quite different, and most of the weapons are older versions not present.

[sweeteye]

Very good points to consider Lieste...I believe working on Anzio first would be best...for the same reasons you point out. I am interested in Stalingrad but am by no means a military weapons expert.Trying to figure out what weapons go to what unit and in what quantity would be a challenge. Would have to have really good information to make the estab correctly. I still consider my maps to be of mediocre quality and hope to improve them with each one I make.Same goes for my scenarios....there is certainly room for improvements.....

[ulisin]

ORIGINAL:  sweeteye
Very good points to consider Lieste...I believe working on Anzio first would be best...for the same reasons you point out.

 
COOL!
Of course I vote... Anzio!
There are a couple of situations very suitable, INMHO.
 
A few other suggestions, INMHO
- short scenarios and little maps can be more suitable! And they will be very useful for MP games. And so, you will get two gamers with only one scen! -)-)
- less work to see your job finished!
 
Another suggestion
- did you think to use other wargames to have a help?
(Combat command, for example: its scale is quite similar to Command ops)
Same as other ideas, that in my opinion could be very suitable for Command Ops system:
- some action of Salerno Battle (I think someone has tried to do something - search for it here, in the matrix forum)
- some action of Sicily campaign
 
or why not
- Sidi Bou zid?
- Kasserine?
 
(Eastern front... Yes, utterly interesting.  But we have only one life).

bye
thanks

[sweeteye]

A short time ago I was looking at the maps you brought to my attention in another thread.They looked usable for an overlay and will probably produce nice looking maps. They are fairly small as well and the scenarios made on them would be fairly small as well. I will start gathering information on Anzio as time permits.I am not as familiar with the Italian campaign as I am with the campaigns in north western Europe and I will need to do a little reading. My father served in the 106th division during the Battle of the Bulge and became a POW for several months. I have always been fascinated with The Battle of the Bulge since I was a child and thus have more knowledge of the northern west front campaigns. I did look at a map of Kasserine Pass a short time ago but opted for the Battle of Nancy.I may look into some other games as finances allow but over the past 12 years I have bought numerous flight simulations as well as other war games and many of them I do not even use much. Have built up quite a collection.Really have to be selective about what I purchase now. Indeed the right game could be useful.

[wodin]

How about Monte Casino?

[sweeteye]

Ah yes... Casino....I used to play an old fashioned board game by Avalon Hill back in the 1980's of Casino...Was an excellent game...Certainly would make a good scenario for BFTB...

[sweeteye]

I have played through the first half of the scenario and to say the least I am disappointed with the German AI.As I have mentioned in the AAR section I do not understand why the Germans are not counterattacking in force.Perhaps they will in the second half of the scenario...Would be interesting to know how others are faring.

[Arjuna]

sweeteye,

Have you done a rough combat power ratio for the forces involved. To do so:

• Clone your scenario - do a save as
• In the SM set all reinforcement to the start of the scenario
• Open in the game as the Axis and lasoo all the forces. Note the stats on the general tab in the sidebar and in particular the APerFP, Armour, AArmFP and Bombard values.
• Run again, this time as the allies, and note their stats.
• Then calc the combat power:
  • Work out the APerFP Ratio - Divide the strongest by the weakest. This then becomes your raw CP ratio.
  • Then work out the armour ratio by taking the side with the most armour and dividing this by the opposing force's AArmFP.
  • Now shift the raw CP by one level for each level of the armour ratio minus one - ie raw CP = raw CP + ( arm ratio - 1 ). Eg if the raw CP is 2:1, and the Armour ratio is also 2:1, then the CP ratio becomes 3:1. If the arm ratio was 1:3 then it would shift the other way two levels and become 1:2.
  • Work out the bombard ratio - by dividing the strongest with the weakest and applying shifts as per armour

Now this is only a rough order of magnitude but it should give you an idea of the relative strengths. You may find that one side or the other is way outclassed and needs some additional forces or better effectiveness ( morale, training, experience, aggro ).