Another reason why we should be able to set air mission targets ourselves.

Uncommon Valor: Campaign for the South Pacific covers the campaigns for New Guinea, New Britain, New Ireland and the Solomon chain.

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LargeSlowTarget
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Post by LargeSlowTarget »

Originally posted by pasternakski

"I think the main problem is REALLY STUPID target selection, like the "3 Hudsons sent to attack MSW vessels in Rabaul harbor only to be shot down by CAP - and my commander at PM sends three more Hudsons the next day, and the next, and so on - although there are easier, more important and more rewarding targets nearby en masse".

You have the tools to stop this from happening, and there's no reason it shouldn't have happened in the first place. Obviously, there's a squadron of Hudsons out there within range of Rabaul. Obviously, there are no long-range fighters available for escort. Obviously, the squadron is set for naval attack. Obviously, this Hudson squadron is launching only three aircraft for a reason, possibly lack of supply, lack of air support, lack of an air HQ nearby, lack of morale, lack of rest, or some other lack. So three Hudsons were lost on the first day. Before the second day dawned, it was time to make a change. I don't have all the facts here, but it looks to me like this poor bunch of suckers needed to be taken off of naval attack before more of 'em got their butts shot off. I find that Hudsons are much better used as search or ASW aircraft than as naval strike planes, anyway. What gets 'em into trouble here, apparently, is their range. So put 'em to work doing something they won't get murdered at.


They wouldn't have get murdered if my AI-commander didn't insist on sending them unescorted to CAP-covered Rabaul - instead of attacking the Jap APs off Buna, for example.
This happens to me all the time in the early days of the #16 and #17 scenarios when the AI (or human opponent) tries to grab Buna and Gili-Gili. The Hudson squadron in question starts at PM, supplies and air support there are at least ample, long-range escorts and air HQs are not yet available, morale and rest is not an issue because they are set to naval attack with no secondary mission and thus only fly those suicide mission to Rabaul, and even with the losses over Rabaul morale remains high and fatigue low (since only a fraction of the squadron actually flies).

The Hudson is a mediocre bomber (a militarized civilian plane) and shouldn't be used for attack missions if possible, especially not outside escort range against defended targets - agreed. But in my case
- they are close to where they are needed (basing them in Northern Australia would keep them out of Rabaul, but bomb load, morale and fatigue would suffer when attacking targets in PNG)
- they are the bomber unit with the highest experience available (and experience matters in obtaining hits, the B-25 & 26 in Australia have low experience and btw would suffer fatigue upon transfer to PM, making them even less effective)
- and despite the limits of the Hudson these planes should be able to attack those APs (which are themselves no big threat to the planes flak-wise, but the troops they carry make them high- value targets).

Instead, my AI-commander on the spot decides to ignore the easy and important targets nearby and sends those Hudsons to their demise over Rabaul for some low-value targets (unescorted raids into Rabaul would be acceptable for me if they try to attack an important target like a CV - no risk, no fun - but daily strikes for some MSWs are unacceptable).
I would expect that the AI-commander knows (or at least learns from experience) about the capabilites and limitations of the units under his command and use them accordingly. But I have to act in his place and have take the Hudsons out of the fight to avoid pointless losses far away - when they are needed most nearby (I don't expect that those Hudsons will save Buna and GG, but if you try to hold those places, you need every help you can get).

So, in the end I cannot use an air asset in a crucial situation for a mission of which it is well capable - because of stupid AI target selection.

I don't even ask for player taget selection, I just ask for more intelligent AI target selection.
UV is a great game and I enjoy every minute playing it - but sometimes I wish I could court-martial my AI-subordinates...

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Post by Piiska »

I believe the problem is that the roles one can set for TF are way too limited.

After creating a TF it sails always with the same target priorisation regardless of the operational plan you have in your mind. This quote is from Naval Air Attacks -Why can't we... Warspite summarises nicely what I claimed is missing from UV. Have a look on that thread for more details and arguments.
Originally posted by HMSWarspite
the missing elemnent is indeed the ability to assign general standing to a TF, or base. For a TF, historical missions might include:
- decoy (get youself spotted then high tail it out of there (IJN CV at Philipenes)
- 'normal mission' (as today)
- anti invasion(up the priority of AP etc, but most CV will still chase CV if they see one - ref Halsey)
- cautious - main priority is to avoid getting sunk, pass up opportunities if any danger
- cover - protect TF XXX from attack, all other missions secondary
I am sure there are more, but this would enable a basic strategic plan to be enacted. Land bases could have similar range - self defence, air superiority, interdiction, invasion cover, etc.
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Post by Grumbling Grogn »

I don't even ask for player target selection, I just ask for more intelligent AI target selection. UV is a great game and I enjoy every minute playing it - but sometimes I wish I could court-martial my AI-subordinates...
Bingo! That is all I think is needed as well. To those that seem to be putting words in "our mouths" and suggesting we want to micromanage even more... :rolleyes:

Bottom line IMHO is that the AI tweaking should not be considered complete. At least I hope it is not.
-----------------

Also, I said I have seen stupid moves by the AI in 100% of the major naval engagements in my games. Not that the one example mentioned in all of my games (that was someone else's example btw, I have not experienced it YET). I also plainly stated I have only completed three games so far. :)

You guys REALLY should read the posts more closely before jumping to the attack. And is it really necessary for me to detail the exact stupid things I have seen the AI do in my three games when many examples of questionable targeting priorities are already given on this forum? I don't see what it would prove, especially when it seems some don't read the entire posts anyway... :rolleyes:
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Post by DSandberg »

Originally posted by Grumbling Grogn
Also, I said I have seen stupid moves by the AI in 100% of the major naval engagements in my games. Not that the one example mentioned in all of my games (that was someone else's example btw, I have not experienced it YET). I also plainly stated I have only completed three games so far. :)

You guys REALLY should read the posts more closely before jumping to the attack. And is it really necessary for me to detail the exact stupid things I have seen the AI do in my three games when many examples of questionable targeting priorities are already given on this forum? I don't see what it would prove, especially when it seems some don't read the entire posts anyway... :rolleyes:


You'd better start rolling your eyes at yourself. Apparently I'm going to need to quote your previous message and show you PRECISELY why you got the responses you got, since you don't seem to get it (or won't admit it).
Originally posted by Grumbling Grogn
If someone can point me to where escorts attacked CAs 100% of the time in real life while ignoring the divebombers attacking the CV's I will stand corrected (for instance).
To repeat and amplify: you say that in order for someone to prove that you are wrong, they must show that real life "escorts attacked CAs 100% of the time" ... that this particular event happens every time.

What I suspect is that you were attempting to imply that this particular event happens 100% of the time in your games, but without actually saying it, since you obviously know it isn't true. Mostly likely you were doing so in an attempt to put one over on readers of your post by asking for proof that goes far above and beyond what would actually be required to logically contradict your point.

Bottom line: you're skewing the facts and making flawed arguments in order to support your particular viewpoint, and when someone calls you on it, you have the audacity to roll YOUR eyes and accuse THEM of not reading carefully? People reading your message carefully is exactly what caused people to respond in the manner they did.

Unfortunately I have no illusions that you are suddenly going to start thinking clearly enough to understand what others are saying ... not when it's easier to just roll your eyes and keep telling yourself everyone else but you is an idiot. Since everyone who is capable of understanding my points has already understood them, I won't be wasting any more of my time with this thread.
"... planning and preparations were made with great efforts with this day as a goal. Before this target day came, however, the tables had been turned around entirely and we are now forced to do our utmost to cope with the worst. Thi
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Post by Grumbling Grogn »

Originally posted by DSandberg
You'd better start rolling your eyes at yourself. Apparently I'm going to need to quote your previous message and show you PRECISELY why you got the responses you got, since you don't seem to get it (or won't admit it).



To repeat and amplify: you say that in order for someone to prove that you are wrong, they must show that real life "escorts attacked CAs 100% of the time" ... that this particular event happens every time.

What I suspect is that you were attempting to imply that this particular event happens 100% of the time in your games, but without actually saying it. You were doing so in an attempt to put one over on readers of your post by asking for proof that goes far above and beyond what would actually be required to logically contradict your point.

Bottom line: you're skewing the facts and making flawed arguments in order to support your particular viewpoint, and when someone calls you on it, you have the audacity to roll YOUR eyes and accuse THEM of not reading carefully? People reading your message carefully is exactly what caused people to respond in the manner they did.

Unfortunately I have no illusions that you are suddenly going to start thinking clearly enough to understand what others are saying ... not when it's easier to just roll your eyes and keep telling yourself everyone else but you is an idiot. Since everyone who is capable of understanding my points has already understood them, I won't be wasting any more of my time with this thread.


Very cute, but why don't you just stick with what someone posts and stop trying to tell everyone what they are "implying"? I have yet to meet anyone on the Net that is so good as to be able to read my mind from a handful of posts... Or is that too much to ask?

I stated facts: I played three games to completion and I have seen the AI (on both my side and the enemy's side) make very, very stupid moves in every single major naval engagement in those games.

I did not imply anything because there is simply no need to imply anything <period> Or is that too hard to grasp?
What I suspect is that you were attempting to imply that this particular event happens 100% of the time in your games, but without actually saying it, since you obviously know it isn't true.
Funny thing is I have stated quite clearly, and you quoted me, that this did not even happen in my games... You read my posts you say? YOU are thinking clearly? Yeah...

I am speaking from my (admittedly...several times) limited experience with the game. The issue is that my limited experience has not been good in ANY of the games. And others with much, much more playing time seem to problems with the AI as well.

Try to refrain from reading things INTO other people's posts. I simply stated what I have seen and I was VERY, VERY clear in the number of games in which I saw it. Yes, that does lead me to believe there may be a problem. What fool would NOT think there was a problem with if after firing up a game three times and watching the AI do stupid things each and every game? Exactly what is your accepted number of games I must play before I can post about stupid AI anyway? 6? 10? 20? 50? :rolleyes:
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Post by CommC »

The bottom line for me is that in my opinion, based on my experience with UV, is that UV does not give me, the theater commander, enough tools to execute my intent. This is true for both TFs and air groups.

For example, if I want my air groups to attack shipping to defend against invasion of Buna and Gili, if I set them to Naval attack, I can't prevent them from attacking any naval target to the extreme of their range, while an invasion proceeds unmolested.

If I want an AC TF to attack an unloading transport TF, and I set them to Naval attack, they may attack a surface group that has already unloaded and is steaming away, instead of the critical unloading TF I need them to attack.

UV as it stands now has no mechanism to allow me to give these orders, and communicate my intent to my TF and air group commanders.

This could be changed with some minor additions to the interface, such as under the naval attack order, allow a set target, or set priority command. The list could include, unloading transports, surface TFs, etc. The default AI priority could be enemy AC TFs, but if those are at extreme range, if the priority is transport TF X, then the AI should execute those orders. The set target command could always be interpreted as a priority, not an absolute, if a threatening AC TF showed up, then the AI would still be free to shift to attack that.

Unexpected occurences such as not being able to find the TF could still occur, giving air groups and TFs a target would not mean we had to abandon all the random events that can happen in war such as engine trouble or an unexpected squall causing the escorts to get lost.
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How to manage Airgroups

Post by mogami »

Hi, Some of the ways I get my airgroups to do what I want

Range: Do not place long range aircraft up front where they might fly into "bad" aircombats. Place short range types on bases you want them to defend. But....(read next)

Mission: Do not set airgroups to offensive mission types unless a suitable target has been located. After tracking the enemy TF for enough time to decide where it is headed and what it is up to, change mission for airgroups you want to engage.

Search: Have aircraft on bases where bombers are located set on search. Select search aircraft for range you want bombers to fly by using short range search planes where you only want short range attacks. Place PBY/Mavis types on bases with long range bombers.

Examples:
I wish to protect Port Moresby from Japanese invasion TF's
I place bombers with range of 14-16 at Cooktown. All groups set to training 0 percent (to raise morale /reduce fatigue and prevent "fly offs"
I place longer range aircraft at Cairns/Townsville. Search plane PBY at Cairns and Townsville preform Naval Search.

Port Moresby gets shorter range aircraft (SBD)

When enemy TF with transports is spotted rounding Gili Gili, I set one of the Cooktown groups to search, the others to Naval attack.


In short don't place aircraft in range of targets you do not want them attacking. Place them in range of bases you want them defending.
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Post by m10bob »

Fresh blood....
I too would like to be able to assign my own strikes,especially when enemy carriers present the greatest threat,but I also know "fog of war" can alter the true perception of what the greatest threat is..
Halsey went chasing north,toward what he recognized as "the greatest threat",and allowed a cve fleet to come under direct fire when the main Japanese surface fleet came charging out of Suragio Straights........
I expect my commanders to use their best judgements based on knowledge "at hand",but when the planes are at their maximum fuel limits,(as at Midway),I suspect the "guy at the pointy end of the spear" is gonna make a judgement the guy back on the ship is just not gonna appreciate..
Another Grigsby venture "Carrier Strike" was one of the best tactical simulations around,of this genre,but I feel Uncommon Valor has carried the idea (and ability to recreate/replay history of this genre further,and I suspect it's a lot more historical,(for those of us seeking historically correctness..)
When I have had 10 different air missions,and maybe even a fleet sub identify a target,and position,it's still possible to be wrong,and hit a near-by tanker,instead of a flat-top..
If anything is changed,(in the ability to assign definite targets),I suspect being able to limit the planes to a certain type of target,in an absolute area,would be more correct than demanding a flattop be hit in a sea of targets..??????:)
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Naval attack

Post by Owl »

I WOULD like to be able to order my aircraft NOT to attack naval targets at ports. Example in a current game I am playing Japanese and have PM. My planes attack naval taskforces in port in Australia - taking losses from flak and cap where I'd prefer they only attacked the task forces they spotted off the coast.

Order to level bombers: Naval attack, ships at sea only.
(.) (.)

...V...
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Re: How to manage Airgroups

Post by mapr »

Yes... This is the way players have to do it... These are methods I have used... And which I'm going to use... But if these are not 'gamey', I really don't know which would be 'gamey' way to play the game...

I don't like this ;) Wery annoying... Tools for effective way of playing have been provided but there is no way to stear those tools ´way you like...

Way of the Mogami's causes airgroups to get fatigued... and does resolve the problem only in simplier cases... For example if US player would wan't to hit everything next to cavieng and to leave resources in Rabaul be free...
Originally posted by Mogami
Hi, Some of the ways I get my airgroups to do what I want

Range: Do not place long range aircraft up front where they might fly into "bad" aircombats. Place short range types on bases you want them to defend. But....(read next)

Mission: Do not set airgroups to offensive mission types unless a suitable target has been located. After tracking the enemy TF for enough time to decide where it is headed and what it is up to, change mission for airgroups you want to engage.

Search: Have aircraft on bases where bombers are located set on search. Select search aircraft for range you want bombers to fly by using short range search planes where you only want short range attacks. Place PBY/Mavis types on bases with long range bombers.

Examples:
I wish to protect Port Moresby from Japanese invasion TF's
I place bombers with range of 14-16 at Cooktown. All groups set to training 0 percent (to raise morale /reduce fatigue and prevent "fly offs"
I place longer range aircraft at Cairns/Townsville. Search plane PBY at Cairns and Townsville preform Naval Search.

Port Moresby gets shorter range aircraft (SBD)

When enemy TF with transports is spotted rounding Gili Gili, I set one of the Cooktown groups to search, the others to Naval attack.


In short don't place aircraft in range of targets you do not want them attacking. Place them in range of bases you want them defending.
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Post by Bc2of5 »

The plan:Japan will train it's units and save aircraft to subdue Pm in 6 weeks,enough Zeroes should be able to have an numerical and qualitative advantage.

Time passes.Training goes on,number of planes grows.

I amassed acording to my plan a huge fleet of fighters to protect my bombers on my offensive against the PM airfield.finally the clear weather was there and the theater commander gave the order to launch the attack..............several hours later

First report of attack on PM received,local area commander decided to make full use of its large bomber force and send all alvaible Nell's and Betty's (around 60) to crush the airfield within one attack,he send too an token escort of 9 Zeros(all aces!,each of them fight like 5 normal pilots:mad: ).Surprisingly there ia opposition over PM and the raid faced it's demise.

The color of the head of the theater commander turns red as he read the loss report.

later that day,another raid is ordered against Pm,with
100(!) Zeros,protecting 3(!) Nells.

Luckily,that 3 Nell went through and harrassed the airfield.Sure,it will need now a little more time to harm really the airfield there,because allmost all level bomber were gone on a madman's mission,but I am sure within 2 or 3 months this losses can be replaced.I am not very glad about this behaviour of my staff,surely they will make mistakes,but this,I would think somebody would stop him from ordering such attacks(or call me)
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Post by mholmgren »

I agree with those who say the system should be changed to allow you to pick targets, especially when it comes to naval shipping.

Yes, it may be that the scope of the game is such that you're supposed to be at a higher level of command, but when the AI does bonehead things like escorting a strike against cruisers rather than a strike against carriers, there is clearly a problem. And, no, clearly this wasn't a case of the computer simulating the escort becoming separated from the strike, but rather a bad decision about where to send the fighters.

Gary Grigsby did a game very similar to this back in the '80s for the Apple II (maybe IBM as well) called Guadalcanal. UV incorporates basically every major flaw that Guadalcanal had and adds a few more. Some of that is offset by apparent influence from Carriers at War. What we need here is more Carriers at War and less Guadalcanal.

This idea that you are theater commander too high up the chain of command to be picking bombing targets is an interesting idea, but what this game really turns into is a logistics simulation. I feel like that's the only area where I really have any control. And that's just not fun gaming.

That's my two cents at this stage of the game - I haven't played a whole lot because it crashes all the time for me. Hopefully I'll get that sorted out and be able to enjoy the game more.
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Post by dcoop »

I had some of those troubles myself. 2 seperate (2)CV TF's stationed off of Gualdalcanal with 2 VMF's from irau providing LRCAP for an invasion (padding the kill stats for the jarheads with wings:D ) CV TF's awaiting the imminent arrival of the Jap CV's. Well down the slot they come and out go the strikes - 40 TBD's and 15 Avengers and NO fighters. Mind you all 4 CV VF's were set to escort. Wasn't pretty. Second was just about the same, except 3 Wildcats decided to witness the crime. Okay maybe they're protecting mother. Jap strike comes on in, with a mighty fine Zero escort I must say, and out of the 100 or so 'Cats who failed to go on my strike, 30 get airborne???:confused: . Even the most ignorant of Naval commanders wouldnt fail to provide adequate CAP knowing full well that Jap CV's were around. If anyone cares, fatigue for 2 squadrons was in the 20's and the other 2 was in the teens. I agree that some sort of fix should be considered. Not so much total micro-management, but maybe more intelligent AI and some control over target priority.

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Post by Arnir »

I'm having similar problems. In the Coral Sea scenario, my US CV based planes seem to be terrified of the Japanese carriers and keep hitting the same decimated troop transport task force mission after mission. While troop filled task forces are good targets, I don't understand why my planes keep rejecting the Japanese carriers (who are sighted and closer than the transports). I realize that my tactics might account for why I get creamed from time to time (and I'm perfectly fine with that), but only my Army and Aussie aircraft will go after the carriers. I've got P-39s strafing the **** things and 3 Hudsons going in all alone, but the **** carriers won't attack anything but the transports.

In playing the scenario twice in the past two days, my carrier planes attaced the Japanese carriers once.

(Wow, I just lost my lurker status.)

I can fully accept the role as theatre commander, but even a theatre commander would be able to tell subordinates that if they don't get off their butts and attack the enemy carriers (at least once in a while) their jobs will be in Minnesota next week. Who knows, maybe after a 100 games it will even out in the end. Right now I need to vent. :)
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Post by Joel Billings »

Originally posted by dcoop
I had some of those troubles myself. 2 seperate (2)CV TF's stationed off of Gualdalcanal with 2 VMF's from irau providing LRCAP for an invasion (padding the kill stats for the jarheads with wings:D ) CV TF's awaiting the imminent arrival of the Jap CV's. Well down the slot they come and out go the strikes - 40 TBD's and 15 Avengers and NO fighters. Mind you all 4 CV VF's were set to escort. Wasn't pretty. Second was just about the same, except 3 Wildcats decided to witness the crime. Okay maybe they're protecting mother. Jap strike comes on in, with a mighty fine Zero escort I must say, and out of the 100 or so 'Cats who failed to go on my strike, 30 get airborne???:confused: . Even the most ignorant of Naval commanders wouldnt fail to provide adequate CAP knowing full well that Jap CV's were around. If anyone cares, fatigue for 2 squadrons was in the 20's and the other 2 was in the teens. I agree that some sort of fix should be considered. Not so much total micro-management, but maybe more intelligent AI and some control over target priority.

Coop



In this case the most likely cause was that the escort separated from the bombers, or went with another part of the strike, and perhaps that part of the strike did not sight the carriers. We realize that people want control, although I'm not sure we're going to give it in this or WitP (due to many reasons previously stated by us and other UV players). Another approach would be to give more messages explaining exactly why things happened the way they did. Depending on how the code is written this might not be an easy thing for us to do either. We realize that the sense of control is important for the fun factor of a game and trying to give enough control was a primary design consideration during development.

For perhaps the last time, however, I just want to remind you of all of the events during the actual carrier battles that in hindsight would seem idiotic (full strike hitting a tanker and DD thinking it was a carrier at Coral Sea), TBD's getting murdered with no escort only to lead to a complete US victory at Midway (although the SBD group came close to missing the Japanese and turning back). I can go on and on and relate just about any event you come up with in the game to something that happened in history that was not what the commanders had planned (or what was "reasonably" expected to happen). I can't argue your "fun factor", as everyone has a different threshold of what they are willing to have happen outside their control. Each of you has to decide if the game is fun for you.

I feel Mike Wood has done a good job of adding messages during different combat that gives a better sense of what is happening. I appreciate all the work he has put in during the patches, and hopefully this has added to the fun factor. We'll continue to evaluate whether other changes should/could be made to the system.
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Post by Arnir »

This time through the US carrier planes went after the Japanese carriers. Much nicer this time.

I'm really looking forward to the full Pacific theatre game.
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Post by dcoop »

I understand that some of my 'Cats may have lost their way, that's to be expected. But I'm not going to assume that just because there's no escort, there ever was an escort. If any of my bombers can't find the target, they at least have the decency to tell me. If I see a strike that has 40 SBD's and 15 TBD's with no escort, I have to assume that no escort was sent, since they never reported that they could not "find the target".

I'm not knocking the game, I love it! I just want a little accountability when it comes to airstrikes. If my escort gets separated, let me know. Something like "airstrike approaches ships 40 SBD's 15 TBD's VF-8 gets separated from group" That's not too much to ask is it?

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Post by Joel Billings »

Originally posted by dcoop
I understand that some of my 'Cats may have lost their way, that's to be expected. But I'm not going to assume that just because there's no escort, there ever was an escort. If any of my bombers can't find the target, they at least have the decency to tell me. If I see a strike that has 40 SBD's and 15 TBD's with no escort, I have to assume that no escort was sent, since they never reported that they could not "find the target".

I'm not knocking the game, I love it! I just want a little accountability when it comes to airstrikes. If my escort gets separated, let me know. Something like "airstrike approaches ships 40 SBD's 15 TBD's VF-8 gets separated from group" That's not too much to ask is it?

Coop


No, not too much to ask for. I'm pretty sure their is no message to inform you of escorts that get separated so you can bet that's what happened assuming you didn't have everyone on CAP. In fact there are no separation messages at all, so if your bombers split into multiple groups you aren't told at the moment of separation.
All understanding comes after the fact.
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Re. David Heath's Reply About Selecting TF's for CV Attack

Post by Leahi »

UV rep Heath says there are no plans to change the rules regarding human CV commanders' selection of enemy TF's. Too bad. I've been playing Grigsby (and Billings) games for two decades now, including the C64 father to this game (as well as Carriers at War and several others coming out of that group of very talented programmers). Good games. Heath defends the non-target-selection feature of UV by arguing that we're commanding from behind a desk at the rear, not from the deck of a CV. But would someone at the rear behind a desk be setting the CAP percentage for fighter groups or the search percentage for dive bomber groups or the altitudes for strike and escort groups, and even allow us to abort the whole TF thing by changing target types and putting squardrons on training or rest missions? Hardly. Here's a possible scenario to challenge the non-target (c)ommission: After slugging it out, in one nearby hex is an enemy CV TF with some defensive capability left, but retiring at decent speed; in another, 90 to 180 degrees away from the former, is a lagging, badly hurt enemy CV with little escort and no remaining air defense capability. You're telling me I can't choose whether to go after the former with my remaining strike capability (and perhaps waning daylight hours) while hoping to finish off the other one later, or to play it safe and go after the cripple now? These objectives would require sending the aircraft in very different directions. But I have no choice? I see no defense for this non-targeting rule. Of course I don't expect planes necessarily to find their targets or to keep their squadrons together. But to completely dismiss player choice of naval targets? I'm very disappointed in a greatly admired programmer (maybe two) who go back to the old C64 days for me. They have not really substantially improved this game since then, in my opinion.
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Joined: Wed Nov 06, 2002 3:25 pm

Post by Inigo Montoya »

I completely reject both the line of reasoning and the tone of Ron Amerine's post and I apologize to David Heath. I very much appreciate hearing the cold, hard facts. When people like Ron Amerine attack the truth-tellers, the consequence is we don't hear anything from the powers that be. Mr. Amerine, please feel free to disagree with Mr. Heath, and post away. But I take issue with you writing, "...If he's a PR guy, he's just a tool and should stay out of this debate." You, Mr. Amerine, are the tool.

Not cool.
I am looking for a six-fingered man.
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