Limited Stacking

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JWE
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RE: Limited Stacking

Post by JWE »

ORIGINAL: Alfred
JWE,
In the OP, you placed "'combat" within quotation marks. Was that meant to exclude the support troops. Seems somewhat counter intuitive because the stock island stacking limits include both combat and non-combat troops in the mix. Including all the boots in the limit further reduces the size of the spear point, just like real life.
Alfred
"Combat" is in quotes to preempt arguments as how many IRL troops could fit into a hex IRL.

In-game, a 10 division stack would be between 150,000 and 220,000 "troops" (infantry and other). Add in arty, and tanks, and engineers, HQs, and BFs, and bears, oh my! and a 10 division stack gets between 200,000 and 275,000 "troops". Now that is a very large formal Army, by anyone's standards. US 1st and 3rd Armys, at similar strengths averaged 812,000 each. But game does not count every man and every unit, only those reasonably related to game "combat" activities. So 2/3 to 3/4 of IRL "troops" are not represented in-game. So a hex that is limited to 300,000 "game" troops might be conceptually understood to allow 900,000 to 1,200,000 IRL troops.
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RE: Limited Stacking

Post by Shark7 »

ORIGINAL: JWE

ORIGINAL: Alfred
JWE,
In the OP, you placed "'combat" within quotation marks. Was that meant to exclude the support troops. Seems somewhat counter intuitive because the stock island stacking limits include both combat and non-combat troops in the mix. Including all the boots in the limit further reduces the size of the spear point, just like real life.
Alfred
"Combat" is in quotes to preempt arguments as how many IRL troops could fit into a hex IRL.

In-game, a 10 division stack would be between 150,000 and 220,000 "troops" (infantry and other). Add in arty, and tanks, and engineers, HQs, and BFs, and bears, oh my! and a 10 division stack gets between 200,000 and 275,000 "troops". Now that is a very large formal Army, by anyone's standards. US 1st and 3rd Armys, at similar strengths averaged 812,000 each. But game does not count every man and every unit, only those reasonably related to game "combat" activities. So 2/3 to 3/4 of IRL "troops" are not represented in-game. So a hex that is limited to 300,000 "game" troops might be conceptually understood to allow 900,000 to 1,200,000 IRL troops.

So the game essentially doesn't count cooks, signals, hospital, mechanic, etc troops...only those that actually fight on the lines. So basically each combat 'troop' has 3-4 support guys to keep him in fighting condition.

When you put it that way, its easy to see how some battles could involved millions of troops for each side, but only a fraction of them actually did the fighting. The rest were behind the lines getting beans, bullets and gas to the ones who were fighting.
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RE: Limited Stacking

Post by witpqs »

ORIGINAL: herwin
ORIGINAL: Smeulders
ORIGINAL: herwin

Does this help with the problem in Burma where it seems the Allied player can replicate Slim's dry season 1944-45 offensive during the monsoon season of 1942? I assume it also helps in China.

These complaints keep popping up, but has anyone actually ever managed to do a large Burma invasion after the introduction of supply movement caps ? All the examples I know from the AAR forum are old games, started before the supply movement restrictions were patched in.

The last upgrade of the beta for us was 14 August 2011.

Smeulders is correct, those large scale invasions have not been demonstrated. It will be interesting to see what you do with yours, but in AE most IJ players have been able to cut off those early Allied offensives out of India by invading India. Andy Mac's AAR is recommended for a look at supply issues of large scale Allied offensives in Burma.

And of course, these modifications should have a major effect on things there too.
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JWE
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RE: Limited Stacking

Post by JWE »

Indeed. The PTO is rather harder to parse, but in general, on Jan 1, 1943, Army Ground Forces (AGF) comprised 1,940,000 troops, Army Air Forces (AAF) comprised 730,000 troops, Army Service Forces (ASF) comprised 2,730,000 troops. On Jan 1, 1944, Army Ground Forces comprised 2,550,000 troops, Army Air Forces comprised 1,170,000 troops, Army Service Forces comprised 3,865,000 troops.

Actual breakdown of divisional vs non-divisional personnel in Army Ground Forces was about 45:55, so on Jan 1, 1943, only 875,000 troops were in divisions (out of 1.94 million in AGF and 5.4 million total USA)). On Jan 1, 1944, only 1,150,000 troops were in divisions (out of 2.55 million in AGF and 7.6 million total USA).

In-game, there are no ASF units. Only about 25% of AAF personnel are represented. Only about 35% of AGF non-divisional personnel are represented. So on Jan 1, 1943, the game is short about 700,000 AGF non-divisional personnel, about 500,000 AAF personnel, and 2,730,000 ASF personnel. That's 3,900,000 shortfall out of 5,400,000. These are US Army totals and, of course, the PTO numbers were much smaller. However, the relative percentage scales should be similar.

The whole point is that IRL troop density might be interesting on an intellectual level, but it has no intrinsic relevance to "game" troop densities. One needs to scale IRL densities down by a factor of 3 or 4 to get to 'game" densities.

[ed] numbers from Greenfield, Palmer, and Wiley, "The Organization of Ground Combat Troops", US Army CMH.
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RE: Limited Stacking

Post by Nikademus »

ORIGINAL: witpqs
ORIGINAL: herwin
ORIGINAL: Smeulders



These complaints keep popping up, but has anyone actually ever managed to do a large Burma invasion after the introduction of supply movement caps ? All the examples I know from the AAR forum are old games, started before the supply movement restrictions were patched in.

The last upgrade of the beta for us was 14 August 2011.

Smeulders is correct, those large scale invasions have not been demonstrated. It will be interesting to see what you do with yours, but in AE most IJ players have been able to cut off those early Allied offensives out of India by invading India. Andy Mac's AAR is recommended for a look at supply issues of large scale Allied offensives in Burma.

And of course, these modifications should have a major effect on things there too.


I have heard of them.....but not done it myself. However I have easily created a Maginot Line in mid Burma well after the fall of Rangoon. There is no serious supply issue from India into North Burma despite the absence of full on supply lines
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RE: Limited Stacking

Post by herwin »

ORIGINAL: witpqs
ORIGINAL: herwin
ORIGINAL: Smeulders



These complaints keep popping up, but has anyone actually ever managed to do a large Burma invasion after the introduction of supply movement caps ? All the examples I know from the AAR forum are old games, started before the supply movement restrictions were patched in.

The last upgrade of the beta for us was 14 August 2011.

Smeulders is correct, those large scale invasions have not been demonstrated. It will be interesting to see what you do with yours, but in AE most IJ players have been able to cut off those early Allied offensives out of India by invading India. Andy Mac's AAR is recommended for a look at supply issues of large scale Allied offensives in Burma.

And of course, these modifications should have a major effect on things there too.

If so, what kept Japan from invading India in reality? The 1944 offensive died due to lack of supply.
Harry Erwin
"For a number to make sense in the game, someone has to calibrate it and program code. There are too many significant numbers that behave non-linearly to expect that. It's just a game. Enjoy it." herwin@btinternet.com
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RE: Limited Stacking

Post by witpqs »

ORIGINAL: Nikademus
ORIGINAL: witpqs
ORIGINAL: herwin



The last upgrade of the beta for us was 14 August 2011.

Smeulders is correct, those large scale invasions have not been demonstrated. It will be interesting to see what you do with yours, but in AE most IJ players have been able to cut off those early Allied offensives out of India by invading India. Andy Mac's AAR is recommended for a look at supply issues of large scale Allied offensives in Burma.

And of course, these modifications should have a major effect on things there too.


I have heard of them.....but not done it myself. However I have easily created a Maginot Line in mid Burma well after the fall of Rangoon. There is no serious supply issue from India into North Burma despite the absence of full on supply lines

Sounds like you are talking about before the early patches. There certainly are issues after that.
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RE: Limited Stacking

Post by witpqs »

ORIGINAL: herwin
ORIGINAL: witpqs
ORIGINAL: herwin



The last upgrade of the beta for us was 14 August 2011.

Smeulders is correct, those large scale invasions have not been demonstrated. It will be interesting to see what you do with yours, but in AE most IJ players have been able to cut off those early Allied offensives out of India by invading India. Andy Mac's AAR is recommended for a look at supply issues of large scale Allied offensives in Burma.

And of course, these modifications should have a major effect on things there too.

If so, what kept Japan from invading India in reality? The 1944 offensive died due to lack of supply.

Your question doesn't make sense - I am talking about what has been observed in AE, which obviously did not affect historical facts that occurred ~70 years ago. Besides, I'm sure you aren't suggesting that history had to go that way, that the Allies were powerless to do things differently in and around Burma.

To both Nik and Harry, I'm going to beg off of further Burma supply discussion in this thread because too far afield is a hijack. The point is that the changes in this mod should have further impact on the situation in Burma. Let's see what it brings.
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RE: Limited Stacking

Post by Shark7 »

ORIGINAL: herwin

ORIGINAL: witpqs
ORIGINAL: herwin



The last upgrade of the beta for us was 14 August 2011.

Smeulders is correct, those large scale invasions have not been demonstrated. It will be interesting to see what you do with yours, but in AE most IJ players have been able to cut off those early Allied offensives out of India by invading India. Andy Mac's AAR is recommended for a look at supply issues of large scale Allied offensives in Burma.

And of course, these modifications should have a major effect on things there too.

If so, what kept Japan from invading India in reality? The 1944 offensive died due to lack of supply.

I'm having trouble keeping my Singapore attack force supplied in 1942 with the latest patch (q3 I think). So yeah, an early '42 invasion of India sure seems like a non-starter given my current game's results.
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RE: Limited Stacking

Post by el cid again »

If so, what kept Japan from invading India in reality? The 1944 offensive died due to lack of supply.

It was not contemplated. By 1944 Japan could not have attempted it by sea. In 1942 it probably could not have been stopped -
but only the Bengal Field Force of the INA would have been available in support. India is a sleeper in history - only since the 1980s
have serious historians been looking at it (see Total War, Calvocorricci et al and The Encyclopedia of Revolutions). Japan didn't
have the kind of pre war plan often assumed - and was somewhat surprised how well the first campaigns came off. This is why "what
to do next" became a debate - there was no master plan to stick to. The INA might really have mattered - it is why Germany sent
Chandra Bose in mid war - but Japan was never entirely supportive of it (although at least one Japanese from the Nakano School
was - and he formed the first INA in 1942 from prisoners in Malaya). The British were dreadfully afraid of the impact and considered it
treason - but attempts to try INA soldiers as traitors ("the Red Fort Trials") rendered India ungovernable and led to independence.
Not that this stuff is easy to represent in the game. India was not really going to be an Axis power, and at best would simply stop
being a provider of CW troops, supplies and bases - unless Japan was stupid (which happened from time to time) - in which case India
might become genuinely Allied. Had the British promised independence, India would have been far more Allied than it was: the Japanese
had no monopoly on being stupid.

The 1944 offensive was of course a logistical nightmare. But the bigger problem is that by 1944 the Allied position in NE India is
vastly too strong for the forces available to succeed. The Bengal and Assam RR has been upgraded in capacity - and a major Bhramaputra
river barrier effectively removed from the logistical trail. Allied units in numbers exist with modern weapons - and they hold the high
ground when the Japanese (and INA) comes out of the trail system. An amphibious invasion - as occurs in many games - is much more
feasible because the Allies do not know where to concentrate their defense? There are literally thousands of miles of potential landing sites -
and areas much less defensible to attack which also have far less defending them. Once captured, these areas also tend to be some semi-supply independent - India is productive in many respects. The game is quite good in this respect - and history did not have to involve the choices it did.

Monsoon effects - and other seasonal effects - probably are something that can be better modeled. Changing game files is less likely to work than changing code or changing pwhexe.dat files would - since Monsoon is a seasonal thing - not "once you get it, you keep it" sort of thing. But PLAYERS are always free NOT to try an offensive in the wrong season - if they want to play "fairly" and "historically" - always subjective concepts.
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JWE
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RE: Limited Stacking

Post by JWE »

Given this thread has been seriously hijacked, it will be restarted elsewhere.
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RE: Limited Stacking

Post by Nikademus »

ORIGINAL: witpqs
To both Nik and Harry, I'm going to beg off of further Burma supply discussion in this thread because too far afield is a hijack. The point is that the changes in this mod should have further impact on the situation in Burma. Let's see what it brings.

The situation in Burma is one of the motivations for experimenting with the stacking limits (??) so it's not a hijack. The thing about using the limits is it will incur (in theory) added supply and disruption penalties to large stacks of LCU's that try to move in on places like Burma despite the historical paucity (aka virtual absence short of air transport) of supply lines between India and Burma.

And the Maginot line in Burma can still be done with the latest patches
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JWE
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RE: Limited Stacking

Post by JWE »

ORIGINAL: Nikademus
The situation in Burma is one of the motivations for experimenting with the stacking limits (??) so it's not a hijack. The thing about using the limits is it will incur (in theory) added supply and disruption penalties to large stacks of LCU's that try to move in on places like Burma despite the historical paucity (aka virtual absence short of air transport) of supply lines between India and Burma.

And the Maginot line in Burma can still be done with the latest patches
I do agree that is an excellent motivation and deserves to be cussed and discussed. That sort of discussion should continue and I encourage it. It really does help in determining SL numbers and is of great value.

Only moving it because the original topic needs to represented somewhere. When the self-absorbed and self-important come around to pee in their little corners, it's time to move the OP. Hopefully, the discussion can continue by simply ignoring the s-a/s-i .. um .. person.
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RE: Limited Stacking

Post by JeffroK »

ORIGINAL: herwin

ORIGINAL: witpqs
ORIGINAL: herwin



The last upgrade of the beta for us was 14 August 2011.

Smeulders is correct, those large scale invasions have not been demonstrated. It will be interesting to see what you do with yours, but in AE most IJ players have been able to cut off those early Allied offensives out of India by invading India. Andy Mac's AAR is recommended for a look at supply issues of large scale Allied offensives in Burma.

And of course, these modifications should have a major effect on things there too.

If so, what kept Japan from invading India in reality? The 1944 offensive died due to lack of supply.

? Sending 3 Divis to do 6 Divs work.

? ASSUMING the weak British and Indians would run away and leave enough supply for the conquering IJA

? Leaving a dolt like Mutaguchi in charge of troops

? Still believing that the IJA was invincible with its obsolete tactics and weapons.

(And they still got disturbingly close)
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herwin
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RE: Limited Stacking

Post by herwin »

Sorry about the hijack. The situation in Burma was supply-limited at best, and during the monsoon, the war shut down. The terrain, while not untracked, was very difficult for motorised vehicles. The Ledo Road was notable for being all-weather and having a pipeline alongside. All supply had to be trucked or carried in--no bulk transfer--so the proposed stacking limits make a lot of sense.
Harry Erwin
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JWE
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RE: Limited Stacking

Post by JWE »

No worries Harry. This is good discussion material. Only moved the OP about implementation details.

Really would like to know what people are finding. Burma/India looks like a good test area. Solomons/New Guinea should be another (although I haven't seen many mega-stacks roaming through the jungles out that way).

Blackhorse is concerned this might make China too easy, now. We see the opposite in our games. Large offensives, by either side, tend to run out of steam more quickly. Our style of play is very different, so could use some input from people who play a more normal style.
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RE: Limited Stacking

Post by Shark7 »

ORIGINAL: JWE

No worries Harry. This is good discussion material. Only moved the OP about implementation details.

Really would like to know what people are finding. Burma/India looks like a good test area. Solomons/New Guinea should be another (although I haven't seen many mega-stacks roaming through the jungles out that way).

Blackhorse is concerned this might make China too easy, now. We see the opposite in our games. Large offensives, by either side, tend to run out of steam more quickly. Our style of play is very different, so could use some input from people who play a more normal style.

I guess I'd need to know what you consider a more normal style? I tend to have minimal operations in China, so maybe I am more normal.
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RE: Limited Stacking

Post by herwin »

ORIGINAL: JWE

No worries Harry. This is good discussion material. Only moved the OP about implementation details.

Really would like to know what people are finding. Burma/India looks like a good test area. Solomons/New Guinea should be another (although I haven't seen many mega-stacks roaming through the jungles out that way).

Blackhorse is concerned this might make China too easy, now. We see the opposite in our games. Large offensives, by either side, tend to run out of steam more quickly. Our style of play is very different, so could use some input from people who play a more normal style.

I'd need to kick off a new game to explore these issues. It would take about six months to a year of game time (about a year of playing, I suspect) to really get a feeling for the effects.
Harry Erwin
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RE: Limited Stacking

Post by herwin »

ORIGINAL: Shark7

ORIGINAL: JWE

No worries Harry. This is good discussion material. Only moved the OP about implementation details.

Really would like to know what people are finding. Burma/India looks like a good test area. Solomons/New Guinea should be another (although I haven't seen many mega-stacks roaming through the jungles out that way).

Blackhorse is concerned this might make China too easy, now. We see the opposite in our games. Large offensives, by either side, tend to run out of steam more quickly. Our style of play is very different, so could use some input from people who play a more normal style.

I guess I'd need to know what you consider a more normal style? I tend to have minimal operations in China, so maybe I am more normal.

It's hard to say, but I suspect normal Japanese operations try to take Chunking within one or two game years.
Harry Erwin
"For a number to make sense in the game, someone has to calibrate it and program code. There are too many significant numbers that behave non-linearly to expect that. It's just a game. Enjoy it." herwin@btinternet.com
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JWE
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RE: Limited Stacking

Post by JWE »

ORIGINAL: Shark7
I guess I'd need to know what you consider a more normal style? I tend to have minimal operations in China, so maybe I am more normal.
Normal is just regular game-play. We do CPX style, with an umpire.
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