Allowing ALLIED On-Map Production

[wdolson]

Pretty much, though the game has many versions of the P-40 between the E and N and does not have the Q, which never went into production.  The P-51 was already in production by the time the Q came along and the P-51 equaled or out performed the Q in all areas, so it was not seen as necessary.

Bill

[John 3rd]

Think we're moving in a solid direction over in the Allied Thread that will provide a chance to do some serious experimentation.

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: Shark7
P-40 line for a quick example:

Starting model is the P-40E in game. Produced in Buffalo, New York. One line only. Once one knows how many E models was produced before the next model (in game I think it is the N, so you take all models E-M and add them together to get production numbers) and when the N model goes into production it is a simple matter to find a nice average number for the E factory to ramp up to. The N model will have its own factory, plus (as you define the upgrade) the old E factory will upgrade to the N automatically

So you might start with a factory for the E model at 20(60) to build up. The N gets an R&D factory at 0(20), and the final Q model gets an additional 0(20) which gives you peak production of 120. (this is just an example after all).

Yes, that is sort of how the factories for the P-38 models are already done on-map, for example. Later models get combined production from upgrading factories of earlier models, plus a new factory for the later model.

Andrew

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: wdolson

Pretty much, though the game has many versions of the P-40 between the E and N and does not have the Q, which never went into production.  The P-51 was already in production by the time the Q came along and the P-51 equaled or out performed the Q in all areas, so it was not seen as necessary.

Bill

So I got it right on the premise, I just need to refigure based on the number of models. In other words, each new factory may only need to have an additional 5 production number, etc.

Seems like a lot of work if someone were to go through with it. [X(]

[el cid again]

I have already done this work and it is in test now. The Allied production concept works. It better simulates ramping up - and in some cases -
if factories are reachable - makes them at risk to enemy action as well.

[CaptBeefheart]

I think kfsgo is on the right track with his excellent idea. You get X amount of supplies useable to repair a limited number of factories. However, I would think it would be more useful to have existing types with future upgrades (like F4F-4 to F6F-3 to F6F-5) rather than a handful of oddballs.

To add to it, you could put LCUs on those bases with names like "F4F Factory" and have an HR requiring you to expend PPs to move those to an unrestricted command when firing up the factory.

Also, to answer John 3, USN production seems woefully inadequate in 1942. As an AFB, I'd like to see more F4Fs and SBDs especially. PBYs would be nice as well. Other USAAF and CW choices should be available as well to suit different playing styles.

Cheers,
CC

[wdolson]

Production is, for the most part, in line with historical production levels.  Though I do believe the Allied player ends up a little shy of SBDs.  Douglass stepped up production of the SBD fairly sharply when they switched to the SBD-4 in late 42.  Performance-wise there was little difference between the -3 and -4.  The -4 did have some differences, notably a different propeller and a 24V electrical system instead of a 12 V electrical system, but neither made any difference in areas the game models.

The game keeps the -3 in production until the -5 switchover.  If a player mod wanted to simulate the SBD production correctly, add a new SBD factory in the fall of 1942 set to build -4s and add the -4 to the OOB.  Actually I think the factory scheduled to be added for the -5 could be used.  The -4 would have all the same characteristics as the -3.

There is also a -3 early and -3 late.  The only difference is the defensive armament.  All SBDs were upgraded in late May 1942 to have a pair of .30s in the rear gunner position instead of the single pea shooter.  The factory switched over to building new SBDs with twin .30s at the same time.  Commander Waldren demanded his TBDs get upgraded too and his were the only TBDs to carry twin .30s.

The PBY was a complex plane to build and production was always low.  The PBM Mariner was put into service in part because of the shortage of PBYs.  If the Allied player chooses to waste PBYs as torpedo bombers in the early going, he will pay for it for the next year or more.

Allied production is supposed to be tight in 1942.  It was historically.  Adding unhistorical Allied production will unbalance the game.

Bill

[oldman45]

+1 to wdolson's post. I think we need to be very careful here.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: wdolson

Production is, for the most part, in line with historical production levels.  Though I do believe the Allied player ends up a little shy of SBDs.  Douglass stepped up production of the SBD fairly sharply when they switched to the SBD-4 in late 42.  Performance-wise there was little difference between the -3 and -4.  The -4 did have some differences, notably a different propeller and a 24V electrical system instead of a 12 V electrical system, but neither made any difference in areas the game models.

The game keeps the -3 in production until the -5 switchover.  If a player mod wanted to simulate the SBD production correctly, add a new SBD factory in the fall of 1942 set to build -4s and add the -4 to the OOB.  Actually I think the factory scheduled to be added for the -5 could be used.  The -4 would have all the same characteristics as the -3.

There is also a -3 early and -3 late.  The only difference is the defensive armament.  All SBDs were upgraded in late May 1942 to have a pair of .30s in the rear gunner position instead of the single pea shooter.  The factory switched over to building new SBDs with twin .30s at the same time.  Commander Waldren demanded his TBDs get upgraded too and his were the only TBDs to carry twin .30s.

The PBY was a complex plane to build and production was always low.  The PBM Mariner was put into service in part because of the shortage of PBYs.  If the Allied player chooses to waste PBYs as torpedo bombers in the early going, he will pay for it for the next year or more.

Allied production is supposed to be tight in 1942.  It was historically.  Adding unhistorical Allied production will unbalance the game.

Bill

There are a few exceptions, and it is also hard to know the fraction of planes actually avialable for operations in theater (always less than production)?
But the big problem is - production ends because IRL they didn't need more after a certain date - which may not be the case in a game differing from history. If a type ends without a replacement - I usually let it stay in production until war end - because the Allies could have if they needed to - and a player always has the option not to use planes he thinks are excessive for any reason. In games many units have problems when production ends but there is no replacement - or no replacement for a long time. Allocation may have been in batches with dates - but that does not mean good game design does not consider the play impacts and calculate a rate that can let them arrive for operations until a replacment (if any) starts up.

[wdolson]

Most of the time aircraft factories were used for newer models or newer aircraft, so keeping older models in production is not realistic.  Modding is available so people can make anything they want, but unlimited A/C production is a fantasy.

I did an analysis of SBD use some time ago.  Many -5s were used in the Atlantic for inshore patrol squadrons flying from islands.  The only -3s used in the Atlantic were on carriers that went to the Pacific and some on the Ranger, which were taken off.  Similar story with the -4.  I believe the Ranger lost its dive bombers a little while after Operation Torch.  The TBF was a much better bomber for small carriers.

Older models were used for training.  As soon as enough -3s were available, the -1 and -2s were relegated to training.  Eventually the surviving -3s were also sent to training.  Then -4s when -5s came online.  We have a number of surviving early model SBDs in museums because they were training planes lost in Lake Michigan and recovered in the last few decades.

Other aircraft types have different stories.  A lot of flying boats were used in the Atlantic throughout the war.  PBMs were used in the Atlantic long before they were available to Pacific squadrons.

Bill

[oldman45]

A little off topic, I noticed a lot of the PBY squadrons are withdrawn, are they moving all of them to the Atlantic at the expense of the Pacific?

[wdolson]

Most of them are being disbanded with the planes going into the pools and then the squadron is reformed later.  The USN tended to do this when squadrons were stood down.

Bill

[Shark7]

More interesting stuff for sure. If one were to model every aircraft model built by the Allies, we'd likely run out of slots in the bases for them. Something to keep in mind though, the ramping up would be a plus, since the current model simply gives you a full production rate at the time new models come out.

And perhaps someday the AFBs will get their wish and get a full production model just like the JFBs have to deal with. We could call the new game Resource Manager in the Pacific: The struggle with Logistics. [;)]

Its a lot harder to keep the system running and in balance than you think. Especially when some mistakes can't be undone.

[DOCUP]

I personnally would like to have a little control of my AC. 15 planes a month is not that big a deal. I am not complaining with this next comment. Look at how many the Japanese can build. I like the way this mod is going. It will give the Japanese some more toys and time as well as the Allies. From what I am seeing is that the Japanese players want Scen 2 some of the Allied players don't or are afraid to play it. This mod is a good go between IMHO. I don't think John or FatR would totally bork one side. This is a fantasy mod and I like it.

doc

[John 3rd]

Thank You Sir. I think it will be fun. This is what we tried to do with RA. A Mod somewhere between Scen 1 and Scen 2.

Sorry about a lack of action this week. Both FatR and I have been VERY busy in our somewhat real lives...

[oldman45]

John, you don't have to apologize for real life getting in the way.

[inqistor]

The main early problem for Allies, I can see, is lack of Carrier planes to fill airgroups.

If the whole problem should be treated as either/or (exchanging production of one plane type for another):
game engine treats all planes as equal. One point of factory producing B-17 is worth the same, as one broducing Buffalo, so actually the only possible exchange, I can see, is to exchange some 4E production (B24/25) for something different, and considering cost/size, the only option would be P-38 (kinda no-brainer [;)]).

P-40 I would rule as out of the question, so maybe another possible model to reduce would be some transport?