Wait, I can't read Cuttlefish's new AAR? - Cribtop (J) vs CF (A)

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: princep01

I have put carrier capable A/C on fleet CVs and fought them from that deck, but have never had a squadron shift to CV trained in all the turns I've played WitP. I've put them on Allied fleet CVs, CVLs and CVEs and have yet to have an Allied squadron metamorph into a CV trained unit.

Other than operate the planes from a CV, is there some setting, action, magic phrase or secret handshake that is necessary for a squadron to become CV trained?

It's a number of months, most likely with some random factor thrown in. Just wait it out.

[ny59giants]

CV capable units become CV trained in about 3 months of time on board. I have all but the Hornet and Wasp extras done (game is at mid-June 42). I use those Marine fighter groups of 18 planes until the July re-sizing of the fighter groups to 36 planes.

[Cribtop]

Yep, all I did was put them on the tub and fly missions for a few months. No other magic to it.

[Mike Solli]

You have to fly missions? Does training count?

[ny59giants]

My Marine fighters were on 100% training (escort and then strafing) for almost three months. It may not be exactly three months, but it was very close.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

You have to fly missions? Does training count?

I'm not sure if you have to fly missions. Always do training during down time, and I suppose CAP counts for fighters when at sea. I don't recall that I personally have done this with non-fighter groups.

[Crackaces]

ORIGINAL: Cribtop

Yep, all I did was put them on the tub and fly missions for a few months. No other magic to it.

and get lucky on the operations die rolls or rather not get unlucky [;)]

I have found the following behaviors tranning non-carrier trained pilots with carrier capable trained aircraft:

1. More landing accidents at a lower fatigue level. I think there is a senstivity to this in the algorithum.
2. Fatigue levels increasing more rapidly.
3. Then there are the simple increased probablity of a landing accident which has a higher probability of resulting in an operations loss rather than simple damage.

N=3 groups on two carriers over 90 days. Starting experince 51 compared to LBA training say at March Field. For example the Brit FB's on the Indominable and Marine's on the Saratoga. My observations could very well be bad die rolls or some other factor I do not understand. But it might be worth paying attention to these factors.

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: princep01

I have put carrier capable A/C on fleet CVs and fought them from that deck, but have never had a squadron shift to CV trained in all the turns I've played WitP. I've put them on Allied fleet CVs, CVLs and CVEs and have yet to have an Allied squadron metamorph into a CV trained unit.

Other than operate the planes from a CV, is there some setting, action, magic phrase or secret handshake that is necessary for a squadron to become CV trained?

It's a number of months, most likely with some random factor thrown in. Just wait it out.

Quite frankly, I see no reason to worry about this anyway. The penalty for operating carrier capable aircraft from a carrier is hardly noticeable. I do it all the time and see very little in the way of increased OP losses.

[Cribtop]

FYI, I don't know whether the pilots have to fly missions to go to carrier trained. Just saying that's what I did. Also, to my knowledge I didn't suffer a single Op loss in the Zeros that trained up despite several months of flying off the deck as merely carrier capable.

[Cribtop]

April 30, 1942

Subs

I-15 evades two ASW attacks off Brisbane. A Kate from MKB reports a hit on a Dutch sub near Taliaboe. So far our secret route through these waters once again avoids Allied subs.

4th Fleet

No change.

SE Fleet

Nadzab, previously up to level 3 forts, makes level 1 airfield. Base forces load at Truk for Nadzab and Buna.

14th Army

No change.

16th Army

Allied armor near Daly may have reversed course back north. Recon tomorrow will find out for sure.

25th Army

DA Soerabaja goes well for a first attack. Forts are dropped to 3, odds 2:1, casualties 520(81) vs 588(2). One small enemy LCU is destroyed. Just a matter of continued attacks to bring down the forts.

SA 53, 104 ends the mini-drama here, destroying the enemy LCU with 194:1 odds and nil IJA casualties. We salute the brave last stand by this Dutch force, while noting that if CF had gotten the four LCUs isolated in this area to Soerabaja he probably could have delayed us in Java another 2 weeks.

Probolinggo falls. Seriously, who names some of these places? GreyJoy? [:D]

DA near Langsa forces the former Medan garrison to retreat again, odds 58:1, casualties 590(66) vs 117(1).

15th Army

A quiet day for once.

China

Still bombing the ChiComs as they approach Sian to the tune of 250+ casualties per day. Our lines near Sian are ready for the attack, while a brigade is now moving in behind the enemy.

IJAAF groups in Manchukuo shift to Jehol. These units will take trained pilots and increase their experience by bombing ChiCom units still in place near their original start positions.

Other

17th Army HQ arrives. Not sure we need this HQ in its historical theater. Cribtop HQ will decide where to send it soon.

I'm not trying to renege on my promise to post economy screens, guys. Having an issue with Tracker where the turn has refused to load since the 26th. I'm working with the Tracker Devs on it (great responsiveness by them, I might add) and we'll review the economy soon.

[princep01]

Thanks to everyone for the comments on how to morph the carrier capable AC into carrier trained AC.

Apologies for the brief hijack, Crib. I'm enjoying your AAR, but tend to say little, as I am also reading Cuttlefish's companion AAR.

[Cribtop]

princep, I've always been of the opinion that a conversation on tactics or game mechanics that arise from some in game situation reported in an AAR doesn't constitute a hijack. The whole idea is to have a discussion, IMHO, and usually all contributors learn something. To me a hijack is when posters get into an argument or discussion about something truly extraneous to the detriment of the conversation.

Also, I certainly understand why you post sparingly. Loose lips sink ships, etc.

[Cribtop]

May 1, 1942

This was a VERY quiet turn. Just a few quick updates below.

Programming Note

Mrs. Cribtop and I are dropping off the two daughter units with the Grandparent units for a 3 day weekend. We will be in the woods and thoroughly disconnected from the world. Thus, no updates until about Tuesday as I won't run another turn until Monday night. That said, I'm bringing my iPad and plan to undertake a strategic analysis if Mrs. Cribtop falls asleep early or takes a nap one afternoon. Shhh! [:)]

PS - You'll notice I scheduled this vacation on the Longhorns' bye week and a week the Cowboys play on Monday night. Now THAT is quality operational sequencing. [;)]

Stuff and Things

Gudgeon duds on an xAKL just out of Truk. DC attack by the escorting PB is long but ineffective.

MKB slips into the more open waters of the Celebes Sea and turns for Shangri La and a few days off.

Wake makes level 3 forts; Ambon makes level 4 forts.

A decent number of pilots graduate to the pools from IJAAF and IJNAF training units. At Jehol, our advanced training program commences as we begin to bomb an isolated ChiCom unit.

[Cribtop]

May 2, 1942

We return from our long weekend to rescue the AAR from the 2nd page. No strategic update while I was away as unfortunately we couldn't get a signal.

Subs

Our policy of "camping" active enemy bases begins to pay off as RO-63, RO-65 and I-8 shoot at enemy vessels near Fiji. Unfortunately only one enemy xAK is hit, in large part because I-8 stubbornly shot at a DD in a huge convoy of slow, valuable targets despite the presence of only 2 escorting vessels. I imagine it took a while for the xAPs and AKs to clear the crowded periscope in order to take a shot at the scarce DDs. [8|]

Camping also draws predictable ASW activity as RO-34 twice misses an AM in an ASW TF and twice endures ineffective DC attacks near Sydney.

4th Fleet

The CVE Raiders sortie from Truk and transfer to command of 5th Fleet for their next foray. We plan to bring some small base forces into the Aleutians to build forts and to harass and probe the increasing enemy activity up there. Cribtop Intel sees no signs other than a mostly defensive buildup, but we want to investigate a bit.

SE Fleet

Pagan makes level 3 forts. Even the inner perimeter is building up now.

14th Army

We invade Cebu tomorrow.

16th Army

Supply and a base force unload at Darwin. Nells bomb the enemy armor near Daly again. We need to get some IJAAF bombers here to take over this duty. Somewhat ominously, Alice Springs makes level 3 airfield.

It is pretty clear from the course of the Darwin campaign that Cuttlefish on some level expected the move (no surprise as it is the standard Japanese counter to the Darwin/Timor axis). He obviously reinforced Alice Springs and Tennant Creek. We will recon these bases but anticipate they will be beyond our ability to take absent a major effort. Cribtop Intel believes that one of the likely early ripostes of the Allies may be a land campaign aimed at Darwin, supply issues notwithstanding. How to use this against him is a point to consider.

25th Army

DA Loemandjang takes the base with 12:1 odds and retreats a small base force. Casualties 232(18) vs nil. We order a second DA at Soerabaja for tomorrow.

On Sumatra we are closing in on Langsa.

Cribtop HQ is feeling time pressure to wrap up Java quickly. We need to get Operation Red Dragon completed if at all possible prior to mid August, the earliest date we can reasonably anticipate a counter-offensive from the enemy.

15th Army

Madras makes level 7 airfield. Recon shows that the enemy air force has abandoned Ledo, which in turn shuts down supply flights over the Hump. We will try to reach him at his rear area bases near Calcutta but it will take a few days to set up airfield support in range.

China

No change.

[yamo1]

Just read The End of the Imperial Japanese Navy by
Masanori Ito. He refers to Sun Tsu in making the point that the Japanese subs should not camp at bases but should instead patrol shipping lanes.

[Crackaces]

ORIGINAL: yamo1

Just read The End of the Imperial Japanese Navy by
Masanori Ito. He refers to Sun Tsu in making the point that the Japanese subs should not camp at bases but should instead patrol shipping lanes.

This might not have anything to do with Sun Tzu [;)], but the algorithums in the game. My observations are that the "Offical Release" IJ submarines terrorize shipping, and will agressively attack merchants. However, somewhere between that release and q3 IJ submarines start passing on firing torps at merchants (die roll), but will surface if undefended. Problem being once all the Allied merchants upgrade none are unarmed undefended. I can post a history of losing a merchant on average every other day on the offical release and I have yet to lose a merchant on the q3 release from submarines.

I think I read that Cribtop upgrades to the latest Beta (?), which at least as far as my observations, looking for merchants might not be as fruitful as turning IJN submarines loose on capitol ships. I beleive this is Cribtop's strategy?

[Erkki]

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

ORIGINAL: yamo1

Just read The End of the Imperial Japanese Navy by
Masanori Ito. He refers to Sun Tsu in making the point that the Japanese subs should not camp at bases but should instead patrol shipping lanes.

This might not have anything to do with Sun Tzu [;)], but the algorithums in the game. My observations are that the "Offical Release" IJ submarines terrorize shipping, and will agressively attack merchants. However, somewhere between that release and q3 IJ submarines start passing on firing torps at merchants (die roll), but will surface if undefended. Problem being once all the Allied merchants upgrade none are unarmed undefended. I can post a history of losing a merchant on average every other day on the offical release and I have yet to lose a merchant on the q3 release from submarines.

I think I read that Cribtop upgrades to the latest Beta (?), which at least as far as my observations, looking for merchants might not be as fruitful as turning IJN submarines loose on capitol ships. I beleive this is Cribtop's strategy?

Dont they attack surfaced only if the target is alone? At least those on-the-surface attacks that I can recall, by both sides, have been against lone ships... Last one I had, a USN sub attacked one of my xAKs on surface (a 2-ship convoy actually, but that very sub had sunk the other xAK some week or so before and the remaining ship was now on its way back home [:D] ), and the xAK won the duel, mainly thanks to Mk 14s failing to detonate.

[Crackaces]

ORIGINAL: Erkki

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

ORIGINAL: yamo1

Just read The End of the Imperial Japanese Navy by
Masanori Ito. He refers to Sun Tsu in making the point that the Japanese subs should not camp at bases but should instead patrol shipping lanes.

This might not have anything to do with Sun Tzu [;)], but the algorithums in the game. My observations are that the "Offical Release" IJ submarines terrorize shipping, and will agressively attack merchants. However, somewhere between that release and q3 IJ submarines start passing on firing torps at merchants (die roll), but will surface if undefended. Problem being once all the Allied merchants upgrade none are unarmed undefended. I can post a history of losing a merchant on average every other day on the offical release and I have yet to lose a merchant on the q3 release from submarines.

I think I read that Cribtop upgrades to the latest Beta (?), which at least as far as my observations, looking for merchants might not be as fruitful as turning IJN submarines loose on capitol ships. I beleive this is Cribtop's strategy?

Dont they attack surfaced only if the target is alone? At least those on-the-surface attacks that I can recall, by both sides, have been against lone ships... Last one I had, a USN sub attacked one of my xAKs on surface (a 2-ship convoy actually, but that very sub had sunk the other xAK some week or so before and the remaining ship was now on its way back home [:D] ), and the xAK won the duel, mainly thanks to Mk 14s failing to detonate.

What I observe is that if the convoy is defenseless [i.e. less than 20mm(?) guns or better] the submarine will surface and use guns. A KV, DE, DD etc provides that protection. However, Allied merchant ships start the game with .50 cals and .303's, but soon upgrade to 20mm. After that I have never observed a IJ submarine surface against an upgraded ship. [I am a newbie into 122 turns into a game .. but have observed multiple encouters prior to the last patch]. I have observed my USN subs surface against a IJ 2 xAKL convoy and sink them both with guns. There is also the odd encouter I describe below.

As a side note, it looks like in a recent patch between offical and q3 a behavior has been introduced where *ANY* major damage causes the submarine to dive. During an encouter between a a Dutch O class and IJ 2 xAK's -- the sub surfaced, fired 5 shots and then a message "diving deep due to damage ". The only new damage was '1' major on Systems. [Severe Storms was the weather .. a factor maybe??]

[Cribtop]

Actually, my strategy here us a reaction to the fact that CF seems to be running very large convoys. This means fewer convoys and thus fewer mid-ocean intercepts. Thus, we are going to the banks because "that's where the money is." IRL there's no way we'd be camping.

Another response to these large convoys was the CVE Raiders TF. So far they haven't connected with big game, but if they ever do the results could be painful. We had evidence that their first cruise missed a huge TK convoy by about five hexes.

[Cribtop]

May 3, 1942

Subs

Somewhere, sinking noises indicate an Allied sub goes down. An ASW TF harasses Sculpin near Balikpapan. We have taken to using ASW TFs to sweep hexes about to be traversed by tanker convoys near Balikpapan and Singers.

4th Fleet

No change.

SE Fleet

Base forces and Naval Guards unload at Lae bound for Nadzab, at Buna and at Manus.

14th Army

We unload a regiment at Cebu, knowing the PA Division here has some guns but hopeful that high prep and DD escorts see us through. We come out ok with light casualties and no ships hit. The unit will need to rest a few days to clear 35 DIS, and unless supplies are low for the bad guys may need some help, but so far so good.

16th Army

We will continue to bomb the Allied armor as it enters the Daly Waters hex today. Recon of Tennant shows 5 LCUs but not a lot of numbers and minimal aircraft. At least 1 LCU is marching for the front from Tennant. Looks like CF plans to contest us here but we should be up to the task now that the Darwin LoC is secure.

25th Army

MKB enters the South China Sea without incident and sets course for Shangri La.

DA Soerabaja suffers a bit from fatigue but drops forts to 2 and gets a 1:1, casualties 900(52) vs 836(6). One small Dutch LCU is destroyed. A few days rest and we will go again.

15th Army

The enemy reconned Kalemyo and saw we were marching out a few days back. Now he is trying to sneak in an LCU on our heels. We order our brigade there to stop marching and hold the base. No sense giving up a freebie.

DA Warazup tomorrow. Imperial Guards has almost reached Akyab, which should secure that base for now. We will pull out the paras and use them to seize Ramree Island.

China

The KMT pushes 5 LCUs into the mountain hex near Tienshui (81,40) but finds two full IJA divisions. Little worry of a breakthrough here.

One hex East (map) of Sian, the two ChiCom corps that have been under constant air attack in a clear hex mount a river-crossing induced SA and suffer horribly. One unit is down to 0 AS during the replay and is surely wrecked. Its companion is no better. Odds are 1:2, casualties 3404(65) vs 383(3). The summary showed low supply for the enemy was a factor, no surprise as the entire ChiCom army has been out of supply since the fall of Sian. We have a second brigade coming up the road to the enemy's rear and will probably destroy these units. We wonder if this is an effort by CF to kamikaze isolated forces.