I have read a little on history forums, but does anyone know on the WITE map the furthest the Germans advanced?
-Apparently, the Germans reached Mozdok (x148, y125) near Grozny
-A patrol of 10th Motorized apparently shot up the Rail Line near Astrakhan, blowing up an oil train before scurrying back to Elista. It was a light patrol of a few armored cars, motorcycles, etc.
-I am not 100% sure what hex mt. Elbrus is in
Any other thoughts on this? Just curious, the Germans reached pretty far down there during the Stalingrad campaign. Probably further than is possible in-game
Furthest German Advances into Russia
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BletchleyGeek
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RE: Furthest German Advances into Russia
ORIGINAL: Q-Ball
I have read a little on history forums, but does anyone know on the WITE map the furthest the Germans advanced?
I don't want to know why you enquire about this particular subject [:(]
RE: Furthest German Advances into Russia
Probably amongst the furthest East were elements of 6th Army, in March-June 43.
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BletchleyGeek
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RE: Furthest German Advances into Russia
ORIGINAL: Lieste
Probably amongst the furthest East were elements of 6th Army, in March-June 43.
They stayed there well into the fifties, until repatriated to Germany.
RE: Furthest German Advances into Russia
Most of them stayed permanently [:(]
RE: Furthest German Advances into Russia
ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek
ORIGINAL: Q-Ball
I have read a little on history forums, but does anyone know on the WITE map the furthest the Germans advanced?
I don't want to know why you enquire about this particular subject [:(]
Benchmarking, maybe?[:D]
Pretty sure I am NOT getting to Grozny. Rostov is only about half-way from Romania to Grozny. Scary when you think about that!
I just want to know on the map.
Also: LIESTE, 6th Army is not easternmost. Elista is east of Stalingrad, and I know the Germans reached that.
RE: Furthest German Advances into Russia
I think you misunderstood his (joke) point...ORIGINAL: Q-Ball
Also: LIESTE, 6th Army is not easternmost. Elista is east of Stalingrad, and I know the Germans reached that.
RE: Furthest German Advances into Russia
Q-Ball,
Mt Elbrus is probably 137,128
Mt Elbrus is probably 137,128
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RE: Furthest German Advances into Russia
Mt Elbrus location
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RE: Furthest German Advances into Russia
Hi, a lot (lot lot lot) of time I remember to read in "2WW history" of Raymond Cartier about a company not 10. but 16. motorisiert division that without fight (there was nobody in that sector) did advance a lot of km, blow up a SU train near Astrakan. I remember too the name of commander: "Gottlieb".
So after a quickly search with google, I found that:
7. Long-range Reconnaissance to Astrakhan
By armoured scout-car through 80 miles of enemy country- The unknown oil railway-Second Lieutenant Schliep telephones the station-master of Astrakhan-Captain Zagorodnyy's Cossacks.
IN the area of First Panzer Army, which formed the eastern part of Army Group A, the 16th Motorized Infantry Division was covering the exposed left flank by means of a chain of strongpoints.
The date was 13th September 1942, and the place was east of Elista in the Kalmyk steppe.
"Hurry up and get ready, George-we're off in an hour!"
"Slushayu, gospodin Oberleutnant-yes, sir," shouted George the Cossack, and raced off. First Lieutenant Gottlieb was delighted with his eagerness.
George came from Krasnodar. He had learnt his German at the Teacher Training College there. In the previous autumn, while acting as a messenger, he had run straight into the arms of the motor-cyclists of 16th Motorized Infantry Division. Since then he had been doing all kinds of services for 2nd Company-first as assistant cook and later, after volunteering for the job, as interpreter. George had numerous good reasons for disliking Stalin's Bolshevism, and there was not a man in the company who did not trust him. In particularly critical situations George had even helped out as a machine-gunner.
Lieutenant Gottlieb had just returned from a conference with the Commander of Motor-cycle Battalion 165-the unit which later became Armoured Reconnaissance Battalion 116. There the last details had been discussed for a reconnaissance operation through the Kalmyk steppe to the Caspian. Lieutenant-General Henrici, commanding 16th Motorized Infantry Division, who had recently relieved LII Corps at Elista, wanted to know what was going on in the vast wilderness along the flank of the Caucasus front. Between the area south of Stalingrad and the Terek river, which 3rd Panzer Division had reached near Mozdok on 30th August with 394th Panzer Grenadier Regiment under Major Pape, there was a gap nearly 200 miles wide. Like a huge funnel this unknown territory extended between Volga and Terek, the base of the triangle being the coast of the Caspian. Any kind of surprise might come from there. That was why the area needed watching.
The task of guarding this huge no-man's-land had been assigned at the end of August to virtually a single German division-16th Motorized Infantry Division. It was based on Elista in the Kalmyk steppe. The actual surveillance and reconnaissance as far as the Caspian Sea and the Volga Delta was done, to begin with, by long-range reconnaissance formations. Reinforcements were not to be expected until the end of September, when Air Force General Felmy would bring up units under his Special Command "F."
It was then that the 16th Motorized Infantry Division earned its name of "Greyhound Division"-a name which the subsequent 16th Panzer Grenadier Division and, later still, 116th Panzer Division continued to bear with pride.
Apart from a few indispensable experts, the operation was mounted by volunteers alone. The first major expedition along both sides of the Elista-Astrakhan road was staged in mid-September. Four reconnaissance squads were employed. These were their tasks :
( 1 ) Reconnoitre whether any enemy forces were present in the gap between Terek and Volga, and if so where; whether the enemy was attempting to ferry troops across the Volga; which were his bases; and whether any troop movements were taking place along the riverside road between Stalingrad and Astrakhan.
(2) Supply detailed information on road conditions, the character of the coast of the Caspian Sea and the western bank of the Volga, as well as about the new, and as yet unknown, railway-line between Kizlyar and Astrakhan.
The force started out on Sunday, 13th September, at 0430 hours. A cutting wind was blowing from the steppe: it was going to be exceedingly cold until the sun broke through.
For their adventurous drive 90 miles deep into unknown, inhospitable enemy country the reconnaissance squads were appropriately equipped. Each squad had two eight-wheeled armoured scout cars with 2-cm. anti-aircraft guns, a motorcycle platoon of twenty-four men, two or three 5-cm. anti-tank guns-either self-propelled or mounted on armoured infantry carriers-and one engineer section with equipment. There were, moreover, five lorries-two each carrying fuel and water and one with food-supplies-as well as a repair and maintenance squad in jeeps. Finally, there was one medical vehicle with a doctor, and signallers, dispatch-riders, and interpreters.
Second Lieutenant Schroeder's reconnaissance squad had bad luck from the start. Shortly after setting out, just beyond Utta, the squad made contact with an enemy patrol. Second Lieutenant Schroeder was killed; Maresch, the interpreter, and Sergeant Weissmeier were wounded. The squad returned to base and set out again on the following day under the command of Second Lieutenant Euler.
Lieutenant Gottlieb, Second Lieutenant Schliep, and Second Lieutenant Hilger had meanwhile advanced with their own long-range reconnaissance squads to the north, to the south, and immediately along the great road from Elista to Astrakhan. Lieutenant Gottlieb, having advanced first along the road and then turned away north-east, into the steppe in the direction of Sadovskaya, had reached a point 25 miles from Astrakhan on 14th September. On 15th September he was within 15 miles of the Volga. From the high sand-dunes there was an open view all the way to the river. Sand and salt swamps made the ground almost impassable-but armoured reconnaissance squads invariably found a way.
The maps which Gottlieb had taken with him were not much good. At every well, therefore, George the Cossack had to engage in lengthy palavers with nomadic Kalmyks to find out about roads and tracks. These Kalmyks acted in a friendly way towards the Germans.
"The great railway? Yes-there are several trains each day between Kizlyar and Astrakhan."
to read complete article:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/s ... clnk&gl=it
Hope to usefull.
So after a quickly search with google, I found that:
7. Long-range Reconnaissance to Astrakhan
By armoured scout-car through 80 miles of enemy country- The unknown oil railway-Second Lieutenant Schliep telephones the station-master of Astrakhan-Captain Zagorodnyy's Cossacks.
IN the area of First Panzer Army, which formed the eastern part of Army Group A, the 16th Motorized Infantry Division was covering the exposed left flank by means of a chain of strongpoints.
The date was 13th September 1942, and the place was east of Elista in the Kalmyk steppe.
"Hurry up and get ready, George-we're off in an hour!"
"Slushayu, gospodin Oberleutnant-yes, sir," shouted George the Cossack, and raced off. First Lieutenant Gottlieb was delighted with his eagerness.
George came from Krasnodar. He had learnt his German at the Teacher Training College there. In the previous autumn, while acting as a messenger, he had run straight into the arms of the motor-cyclists of 16th Motorized Infantry Division. Since then he had been doing all kinds of services for 2nd Company-first as assistant cook and later, after volunteering for the job, as interpreter. George had numerous good reasons for disliking Stalin's Bolshevism, and there was not a man in the company who did not trust him. In particularly critical situations George had even helped out as a machine-gunner.
Lieutenant Gottlieb had just returned from a conference with the Commander of Motor-cycle Battalion 165-the unit which later became Armoured Reconnaissance Battalion 116. There the last details had been discussed for a reconnaissance operation through the Kalmyk steppe to the Caspian. Lieutenant-General Henrici, commanding 16th Motorized Infantry Division, who had recently relieved LII Corps at Elista, wanted to know what was going on in the vast wilderness along the flank of the Caucasus front. Between the area south of Stalingrad and the Terek river, which 3rd Panzer Division had reached near Mozdok on 30th August with 394th Panzer Grenadier Regiment under Major Pape, there was a gap nearly 200 miles wide. Like a huge funnel this unknown territory extended between Volga and Terek, the base of the triangle being the coast of the Caspian. Any kind of surprise might come from there. That was why the area needed watching.
The task of guarding this huge no-man's-land had been assigned at the end of August to virtually a single German division-16th Motorized Infantry Division. It was based on Elista in the Kalmyk steppe. The actual surveillance and reconnaissance as far as the Caspian Sea and the Volga Delta was done, to begin with, by long-range reconnaissance formations. Reinforcements were not to be expected until the end of September, when Air Force General Felmy would bring up units under his Special Command "F."
It was then that the 16th Motorized Infantry Division earned its name of "Greyhound Division"-a name which the subsequent 16th Panzer Grenadier Division and, later still, 116th Panzer Division continued to bear with pride.
Apart from a few indispensable experts, the operation was mounted by volunteers alone. The first major expedition along both sides of the Elista-Astrakhan road was staged in mid-September. Four reconnaissance squads were employed. These were their tasks :
( 1 ) Reconnoitre whether any enemy forces were present in the gap between Terek and Volga, and if so where; whether the enemy was attempting to ferry troops across the Volga; which were his bases; and whether any troop movements were taking place along the riverside road between Stalingrad and Astrakhan.
(2) Supply detailed information on road conditions, the character of the coast of the Caspian Sea and the western bank of the Volga, as well as about the new, and as yet unknown, railway-line between Kizlyar and Astrakhan.
The force started out on Sunday, 13th September, at 0430 hours. A cutting wind was blowing from the steppe: it was going to be exceedingly cold until the sun broke through.
For their adventurous drive 90 miles deep into unknown, inhospitable enemy country the reconnaissance squads were appropriately equipped. Each squad had two eight-wheeled armoured scout cars with 2-cm. anti-aircraft guns, a motorcycle platoon of twenty-four men, two or three 5-cm. anti-tank guns-either self-propelled or mounted on armoured infantry carriers-and one engineer section with equipment. There were, moreover, five lorries-two each carrying fuel and water and one with food-supplies-as well as a repair and maintenance squad in jeeps. Finally, there was one medical vehicle with a doctor, and signallers, dispatch-riders, and interpreters.
Second Lieutenant Schroeder's reconnaissance squad had bad luck from the start. Shortly after setting out, just beyond Utta, the squad made contact with an enemy patrol. Second Lieutenant Schroeder was killed; Maresch, the interpreter, and Sergeant Weissmeier were wounded. The squad returned to base and set out again on the following day under the command of Second Lieutenant Euler.
Lieutenant Gottlieb, Second Lieutenant Schliep, and Second Lieutenant Hilger had meanwhile advanced with their own long-range reconnaissance squads to the north, to the south, and immediately along the great road from Elista to Astrakhan. Lieutenant Gottlieb, having advanced first along the road and then turned away north-east, into the steppe in the direction of Sadovskaya, had reached a point 25 miles from Astrakhan on 14th September. On 15th September he was within 15 miles of the Volga. From the high sand-dunes there was an open view all the way to the river. Sand and salt swamps made the ground almost impassable-but armoured reconnaissance squads invariably found a way.
The maps which Gottlieb had taken with him were not much good. At every well, therefore, George the Cossack had to engage in lengthy palavers with nomadic Kalmyks to find out about roads and tracks. These Kalmyks acted in a friendly way towards the Germans.
"The great railway? Yes-there are several trains each day between Kizlyar and Astrakhan."
to read complete article:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/s ... clnk&gl=it
Hope to usefull.
RE: Furthest German Advances into Russia
Hi!
To follow the German advance and to some extent the Soviet one you can download the Frontline-Date map and play on that ( Zoom4).
Information -41 up to spring-43.
Go to Scenario design forum and then go to the post " Planning map Frontline -Date map" . Post number 77. .
There are in it instructions how to download.
Goran
To follow the German advance and to some extent the Soviet one you can download the Frontline-Date map and play on that ( Zoom4).
Information -41 up to spring-43.
Go to Scenario design forum and then go to the post " Planning map Frontline -Date map" . Post number 77. .
There are in it instructions how to download.
Goran
RE: Furthest German Advances into Russia
Thanks for the read [:)]
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Oloren_MatrixForum
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RE: Furthest German Advances into Russia
I had no idea they published portions of "Hitler Moves East" online. It looks like few chapters are posted. The material is somewhat dated and more than a little partisan, but I much prefer reading Paul Carell (aka Paul Schmidt) to Glantz. Glantz needs writing lessons.
Thanks for the link.
Thanks for the link.
RE: Furthest German Advances into Russia
Hmm these count?
Yes I think this is largest pocket on record also [8D]
AGC
Yes I think this is largest pocket on record also [8D]
AGC
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Beta Tester WitW & WitE
RE: Furthest German Advances into Russia
AGS
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RE: Furthest German Advances into Russia
AGO: Army Group Oil , heheheh
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Archangel85
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RE: Furthest German Advances into Russia
ORIGINAL: Oloren
I had no idea they published portions of "Hitler Moves East" online. It looks like few chapters are posted. The material is somewhat dated and more than a little partisan, but I much prefer reading Paul Carell (aka Paul Schmidt) to Glantz. Glantz needs writing lessons.
Thanks for the link.
"more than a little" is a good joke, Carell was in the Propaganda ministery during the war. It makes for an entertaining read, no doubt. Just, you know, take it with a supertanker full of salt.
RE: Furthest German Advances into Russia
ORIGINAL: JAMiAM
I think you misunderstood his (joke) point...ORIGINAL: Q-Ball
Also: LIESTE, 6th Army is not easternmost. Elista is east of Stalingrad, and I know the Germans reached that.
Yes, check the dates - 6th Army held the Kessel till Early Feb, it then marched east... not under it's own volition. By March-June 43 it was 'beyond' Uzbekistan.
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Oloren_MatrixForum
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RE: Furthest German Advances into Russia
Yeah, I knew Carell was in the propaganda ministry. He was Ribbentropp's press spokesman. Nearly all the authors on both sides who participated in some way in the war had an axe to grind and Carell was no exception. He even pushed Suvorov's discredited view that the Soviets were deployed for an offensive war in 41 as late as the early 90s. Nevertheless, Carell was a more entertaining writer, in my opinion than Glantz. Obviously, Glantz is an historian on a whole other level, but he has a knack for taking a really exiting story and turning into a yawn fest, and I actually like operational studies. I prefer John Erickson actually, even though he is dealing with old and error prone source material.
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delatbabel
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RE: Furthest German Advances into Russia
ORIGINAL: Pelton
Hmm these count?
Yes I think this is largest pocket on record also [8D]
AGC
Is that against a human or against the AI? I find that a human Axis player against a human can easily do this in the 1942 campaign (since the late 1.04 betas when the attrition levels went up) but I've never seen it done against a human in the 1941 campaign.
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Del
Del