The Power of Inexperience / GreyJoy(A)-Rader(J)

[GreyJoy]

On a side note, I think it's interesting to report that the latest productions of this summer have encreased in a sensible manner our a/c pools situation.
Now we have 150 operative P-47s online and 150 P-38(G and H models). These guys, if backed up by P-40s (Ks and N1/5s) and by the Australian Kittihawk and SpitsVc can took the front line role of my Hellcats squadrons that will be transfered back to their CVs.
The Corsairs will remain on the front line.

[Nemo121]

APAs helping other ships unload? I've never seen this actually happen. Mixing APAs and AKAs with xAPs and xAKs is a recipe for disaster vs an atoll.

Don't learn bad habits. Here's my advice:
1. Load 1 division on xAPs and xAKs.
2. Load 1 division on APAs and AKAs.
3. Load 1 division on LSTs + load ALL your armoured units ONLY on LSTs

4. Have them all attack the same island. After 1 day check how much has unloaded from each of the ship types.

5. Fall in love wth LSTs as you realise how quickly they unload the armoured units ( and the infantry too ) and swear never to load your armoure on anything else ever again if you have a choice.

6. See the difference between your APAs and AKAs and xAPs and xAKs. Note how much your APAs and AKAs unloaded in a single turn. Note this figure down for APAs and AKAs and xAPs and xAKs. Reduce this by 20%. Whatever this figure is is the MAXIMUM amount of troops and non-supply cargo you EVER want on an APA or AKA when invading an atoll. Go over this figure and you may well find yourself shock attacing for two days and destroying divisions needlessly.


Obviously feel free to do it differently but at the very least do the 6th step with your APAs, AKAs, xAPs and xAKs so you can use this test run to prepare for atolls also.

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

APAs helping other ships unload? I've never seen this actually happen. Mixing APAs and AKAs with xAPs and xAKs is a recipe for disaster vs an atoll.

Don't learn bad habits. Here's my advice:
1. Load 1 division on xAPs and xAKs.
2. Load 1 division on APAs and AKAs.
3. Load 1 division on LSTs + load ALL your armoured units ONLY on LSTs

4. Have them all attack the same island. After 1 day check how much has unloaded from each of the ship types.

5. Fall in love wth LSTs as you realise how quickly they unload the armoured units ( and the infantry too ) and swear never to load your armoure on anything else ever again if you have a choice.

6. See the difference between your APAs and AKAs and xAPs and xAKs. Note how much your APAs and AKAs unloaded in a single turn. Note this figure down for APAs and AKAs and xAPs and xAKs. Reduce this by 20%. Whatever this figure is is the MAXIMUM amount of troops and non-supply cargo you EVER want on an APA or AKA when invading an atoll. Go over this figure and you may well find yourself shock attacing for two days and destroying divisions needlessly.


Obviously feel free to do it differently but at the very least do the 6th step with your APAs, AKAs, xAPs and xAKs so you can use this test run to prepare for atolls also.

I've read Michealm saying that APA/AKA, once completely unloaded, will help other slower ship to unload if in the same TF, thus rapresenting the help given by the APA's landing crafts to other ships which don't have them.
However, i'll follow your pattern and see how it goes.
Here at Thousands, anyway, my main concern will be his surface and air assets. If he manages to penetrate my shield of BB/CA/CLs....it is going to be bloody...something like a Leyte Gulf battle...

LST so? luckly i have enough of them... I'm planning to bring with me 2 armoured BNs and a tank destroyer BN...i should have enough LSTs for the three of them

Thanks Nemo

[JohnDillworth]

another 2 cents on amphibious assualts.  One of the real dangers is running out of supplies after the first attack.  Always have another task force following the first that is loaded with supply.  Even if it is just AKx's set as amphibious, you will be glad to have it.  Divisions have been lost on amphibious assaults after they ran out of supply.  Can't have enough.

[Dan Nichols]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

APAs helping other ships unload? I've never seen this actually happen. Mixing APAs and AKAs with xAPs and xAKs is a recipe for disaster vs an atoll.

Don't learn bad habits. Here's my advice:
1. Load 1 division on xAPs and xAKs.
2. Load 1 division on APAs and AKAs.
3. Load 1 division on LSTs + load ALL your armoured units ONLY on LSTs

4. Have them all attack the same island. After 1 day check how much has unloaded from each of the ship types.

5. Fall in love wth LSTs as you realise how quickly they unload the armoured units ( and the infantry too ) and swear never to load your armoure on anything else ever again if you have a choice.

6. See the difference between your APAs and AKAs and xAPs and xAKs. Note how much your APAs and AKAs unloaded in a single turn. Note this figure down for APAs and AKAs and xAPs and xAKs. Reduce this by 20%. Whatever this figure is is the MAXIMUM amount of troops and non-supply cargo you EVER want on an APA or AKA when invading an atoll. Go over this figure and you may well find yourself shock attacing for two days and destroying divisions needlessly.


Obviously feel free to do it differently but at the very least do the 6th step with your APAs, AKAs, xAPs and xAKs so you can use this test run to prepare for atolls also.

I've read Michealm saying that APA/AKA, once completely unloaded, will help other slower ship to unload if in the same TF, thus rapresenting the help given by the APA's landing crafts to other ships which don't have them.
However, i'll follow your pattern and see how it goes.
Here at Thousands, anyway, my main concern will be his surface and air assets. If he manages to penetrate my shield of BB/CA/CLs....it is going to be bloody...something like a Leyte Gulf battle...

LST so? luckly i have enough of them... I'm planning to bring with me 2 armoured BNs and a tank destroyer BN...i should have enough LSTs for the three of them

Thanks Nemo

I don't remember reading about AKA/APA helping when empty, but he or Don did say that LSTs, LCIs, etc will help unload the other ships when they are empty. I believe that it is any ship that can beach.

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

APAs helping other ships unload? I've never seen this actually happen. Mixing APAs and AKAs with xAPs and xAKs is a recipe for disaster vs an atoll.

Nope, never xAPs or xAks for an atoll. But one of the developers did say in a thread that the landing craft ships will help them unload faster. Just have never tried it myself. But would never consider it for an atoll due to the shock attacks. Everything must go ashore the first day.

LST is the Allies' wonder weapon. It is why Allies can build up and support 0 port bases all over the map. LCT is pretty helpful too. Something very difficult for the Japanese player to pull off.

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: crsutton

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

APAs helping other ships unload? I've never seen this actually happen. Mixing APAs and AKAs with xAPs and xAKs is a recipe for disaster vs an atoll.

Nope, never xAPs or xAks for an atoll. But one of the developers did say in a thread that the landing craft ships will help them unload faster. (Can't recall which ships but AKA and APA had the type of landing craft that could off load any neighboring ship whereas LST and LCI are ships in themselves and would not be much use for this.) Just have never tried it myself. But would never consider it for an atoll due to the shock attacks. Everything must go ashore the first day. GJ is in a pickle due to heavy losses and is going to have to try this out sooner or later.

LST is the Allies' wonder weapon. It is why Allies can build up and support 0 port bases all over the map. LCT is pretty helpful too. Something very difficult for the Japanese player to pull off.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

APAs helping other ships unload? I've never seen this actually happen. Mixing APAs and AKAs with xAPs and xAKs is a recipe for disaster vs an atoll.

Don't learn bad habits. Here's my advice:
1. Load 1 division on xAPs and xAKs.
2. Load 1 division on APAs and AKAs.
3. Load 1 division on LSTs + load ALL your armoured units ONLY on LSTs

4. Have them all attack the same island. After 1 day check how much has unloaded from each of the ship types.

5. Fall in love wth LSTs as you realise how quickly they unload the armoured units ( and the infantry too ) and swear never to load your armoure on anything else ever again if you have a choice.

6. See the difference between your APAs and AKAs and xAPs and xAKs. Note how much your APAs and AKAs unloaded in a single turn. Note this figure down for APAs and AKAs and xAPs and xAKs. Reduce this by 20%. Whatever this figure is is the MAXIMUM amount of troops and non-supply cargo you EVER want on an APA or AKA when invading an atoll. Go over this figure and you may well find yourself shock attacing for two days and destroying divisions needlessly.


Obviously feel free to do it differently but at the very least do the 6th step with your APAs, AKAs, xAPs and xAKs so you can use this test run to prepare for atolls also.

I've read Michealm saying that APA/AKA, once completely unloaded, will help other slower ship to unload if in the same TF, thus rapresenting the help given by the APA's landing crafts to other ships which don't have them.
However, i'll follow your pattern and see how it goes.
Here at Thousands, anyway, my main concern will be his surface and air assets. If he manages to penetrate my shield of BB/CA/CLs....it is going to be bloody...something like a Leyte Gulf battle...

LST so? luckly i have enough of them... I'm planning to bring with me 2 armoured BNs and a tank destroyer BN...i should have enough LSTs for the three of them

Thanks Nemo

OK, first off Michael and/or Don did say that the attack transports (APA/AKA) help other ships after they themselves are unloaded. Nemo is right - do not rely on that for the assault landing. Your assault troops should (ideally) be able to unload in one day or less (less because sometimes ops points get used up in unexpected ways).

Here is the manual section on Amphibious unloading:

6.3.3.3.2 AMPHIBIOUS UNLOADING
The Amphibious Unload Rate bonus applies only to ships in an Amphibious TF. Amphibious
Unload rates are determined by ship type (i.e., beaching craft, amphibious ship types,
or ordinary transport/cargo ship types). There are no Port-derived cargo handling limits.
Amphibious Unload only applies to Troops and Cargo (equipment and supply). Amphibious
Unload does not apply to Fuel, Oil or Resources. Note that there is also an “initial operations”
bonus for the Japanese during the first 4 months of the war.

Amphibious Unload may be used in two situations: an assault unloads over the beach, and
amphibious unload in a small friendly port. Amphibious Unload Rate bonuses differ for the two
situations.

6.3.3.3.2.1 OVER THE BEACH
This is for assault unloading over the beach.

» Beaching Craft. Beaching craft unload completely in one turn.

» Attack Amphibious Ships. (APA/AKA plus LSD, LSV and British equivalents)
in Amphibious TFs, unload at a Rate of 3000 points per ship, per turn.

» Regular Transport Ships. (Commissioned Naval AP/AK) in Amphibious
TFs, unload at a Rate of 600 points per ship per turn.

» Merchant Ships. (xAP/xAK) in Amphibious TFs, unload
at a Rate of 250 points per ship per turn.

» Special Japanese early war bonus of 1200 for all AP/AK and xAP/xAK types.

6.3.3.3.2.2 FRIENDLY PORT
For Amphibious docked at and unloading in a friendly port of Size 4 or less, the unload rate is
slightly different for Troops and Cargo.

» Beaching Craft. Troops unload at a Rate of 1000 points per ship per
turn. Cargo unloads at a Rate of 750 points per ship per turn.

» Attack Amphibs. Troops unload at a Rate of 1000 points per ship per
turn. Cargo unloads at a Rate of 750 points per ship per turn.

» Regular Amphibs. Troops unload at a Rate of 300 points per ship per
turn. Cargo unloads at a Rate of 300 points per ship per turn.

» Merchant Ships. Troops unload at a Rate of 125 points per ship per
turn. Cargo unloads at a Rate of 125 points per ship per turn.

Amphibious TFs not docked at a friendly port unload at a different rate, depending on port
size, amount of free dock space, and the types of ships in the TFs. Amphibious ship types, with
attached landing craft, will unload faster than non-amphibious ships.

Notice the unload rates for the various kinds of ships! BTW, IIRC "per turn" in this section means "per phase" there being two phases each turn. Somebody sing out if I have that wrong.

After the turn of landing, which has a mandatory shock attack, remember to turn off that shock attack on all units or you will gut them as Nemo noted.

[CaptBeefheart]

I think GreyJoy is going to land at Thousand Ship's Bay (sp?), which is part of a large island, so there won't be a shock attack as if it were an atoll. He only has to survive Rader's counterattack on Day 3. So, with two days to land there should be plenty of time to unload a good chunk of forces even with xAPs and xAKs. Those Eng Amph Brigades also seem to help a lot on invasions.

I would also recommend having a few ships with only supplies on board, so no matter what, some supplies will reach the troops. Also, I hope those units are prepped well. The lower the prep, the more disruption you get on landings like this.

One final thing I learned the hard way is to have all amph TFs "follow" your main fast BB TF. Otherwise, enemy SCTFs will hit the wrong TF first.

Cheers,
CC

[Crackaces]

GJ:

The picture below illistrates a landing of a RAF BF on a friendly unoccupied base [Akyab] using 8xAP's and 1 xAK. At D-Day + 1 I have about 1900 troops and some supplies ashore. My calculations tell me that about 250 units[troop/cargo/supplies] per day per ship have been landed not per phase. The other observation is that when supplies and troops are combined on the same boat they are off loaded rather equally. Telling me .. no supplies on the troop boats and have extra boats to land supplies. [Here I do not care since the hex is mine and empty]. Also you can see the advice Nemo had about heavy equipment. None of that is on the ground yet.

This is a friendly hex .. I could imagine the effects of that intial "surf penality" that seems to be a random number up to %10 influenced by variables that I will leave to the experts in this thread. But I am thinking a 10% pad on top of what is needed to ensure 2:1 adjusted AV.

Main point: In my limited experience I would calculate the number as per day and load the AmphibTF accordingly to achieve maximum AV required to allow the landing to stick.

[GreyJoy]

Thanks again guys for all your efforts!

Crackeces, i don't think with an amphib TF can load "only" troops and not supplies...in my experiences, whatever you tell it to do, it will always load also supplies on the amphib TF.
Moreoveri don't know if the supplies unloaded from a different TF are "transfered" automaticaly and immediately at the troops ashore or if this tranfer takes some time (1 phase, 1 day, 1 turn...)

CC is right...in this particular occasion i'll have 2 full days of landing before he can attack me back...and there won't be any shock attack...so it should be fine whatever mistake i do...anyway i need to learn how to face the atolls, so better to do things properly and to study the results...

Obviously all my plans could be destroyed by Rader sinking my transport fleet or savaging her while unloading... will be a landing in hostile waters with an enemy at full strenght and full attention....will be damned risky! Will probably be stupid....will surely be glorious[:D]

[Xargun]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Notice the unload rates for the various kinds of ships! BTW, IIRC "per turn" in this section means "per phase" there being two phases each turn. Somebody sing out if I have that wrong.

After the turn of landing, which has a mandatory shock attack, remember to turn off that shock attack on all units or you will gut them as Nemo noted.

What constitutes a point ? I am assuming it is the load cost of the device - load cost 6 = 6 points to unload. Is that correct ? What about supply ? Is 1 unit of supply = 1 point ?

Xargun

[Xargun]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy
Obviously all my plans could be destroyed by Rader sinking my transport fleet or savaging her while unloading... will be a landing in hostile waters with an enemy at full strenght and full attention....will be damned risky! Will probably be stupid....will surely be glorious[:D]

Since you are using 2 day turns you will unload a lot on that first 'turn' - you only have to worry about his 'reactive' forces and nothing planned. If you get hammered bad by air power on the first 'turn' you can always retreat on turn 2 after unloading the bulk of your forces. This will protect your precious transports - or you can do what I do a lot of times - I transfer all the empty ships into their own TF and pull them back so you are not risking ships that will do nothing for you.

Xargun

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Xargun

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Notice the unload rates for the various kinds of ships! BTW, IIRC "per turn" in this section means "per phase" there being two phases each turn. Somebody sing out if I have that wrong.

After the turn of landing, which has a mandatory shock attack, remember to turn off that shock attack on all units or you will gut them as Nemo noted.

What constitutes a point ? I am assuming it is the load cost of the device - load cost 6 = 6 points to unload. Is that correct ? What about supply ? Is 1 unit of supply = 1 point ?

Xargun

I don't worry about the calculations. Use Tracker to look at the LCU, and in the far right-hand column - I forget the column label - you will find the total for the unit. Note it is the same unit as for island stacking calculations. As far as supply goes, I guess 1 supply = 1 point. When you look at the ship, each point of capacity is what they mean. So if a ship has 1,200 troop capacity and 1,000 cargo capacity then AFAIK that means 2,200 "points" to get unloaded (provided the ship is full).

Edit to add: correct my post by looking at the manual section above. Notice that actual "cargo" has a different unloading rate for some ship types. But AFAIK troops (think radars, motorized support, etc.) in the loaded in the cargo section still unload at the troops rate. Query a developer to be sure.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

GJ:

The picture below illistrates a landing of a RAF BF on a friendly unoccupied base [Akyab] using 8xAP's and 1 xAK. At D-Day + 1 I have about 1900 troops and some supplies ashore. My calculations tell me that about 250 units[troop/cargo/supplies] per day per ship have been landed not per phase. The other observation is that when supplies and troops are combined on the same boat they are off loaded rather equally. Telling me .. no supplies on the troop boats and have extra boats to land supplies. [Here I do not care since the hex is mine and empty]. Also you can see the advice Nemo had about heavy equipment. None of that is on the ground yet.

This is a friendly hex .. I could imagine the effects of that intial "surf penality" that seems to be a random number up to %10 influenced by variables that I will leave to the experts in this thread. But I am thinking a 10% pad on top of what is needed to ensure 2:1 adjusted AV.

Main point: In my limited experience I would calculate the number as per day and load the AmphibTF accordingly to achieve maximum AV required to allow the landing to stick.

Remember that amphibious unloading in a friendly port is different - and slower - than assault amphibious unloading. You mention using xAPs and an xAK for the test. Those are classified as Merchant Ships (indicated by the lower-case 'x' prefix). Again here is that part of the manual (from the post above):

6.3.3.3.2.2 FRIENDLY PORT
For Amphibious docked at and unloading in a friendly port of Size 4 or less, the unload rate is
slightly different for Troops and Cargo.

» Beaching Craft. Troops unload at a Rate of 1000 points per ship per
turn. Cargo unloads at a Rate of 750 points per ship per turn.

» Attack Amphibs. Troops unload at a Rate of 1000 points per ship per
turn. Cargo unloads at a Rate of 750 points per ship per turn.

» Regular Amphibs. Troops unload at a Rate of 300 points per ship per
turn. Cargo unloads at a Rate of 300 points per ship per turn.

» Merchant Ships. Troops unload at a Rate of 125 points per ship per
turn. Cargo unloads at a Rate of 125 points per ship per turn.

Amphibious TFs not docked at a friendly port unload at a different rate, depending on port
size, amount of free dock space, and the types of ships in the TFs. Amphibious ship types, with
attached landing craft, will unload faster than non-amphibious ships.

I've put in bold the section that deals with vessels classified as Merchant Ships for loading/unloading purposes. The unload rate is cited as "125 points per ship per turn". You measured getting 250 points per ship per turn. So the results of your test confirm my memory (of reading a developer's post) that where that section of the manual says "turn" they meant "phase".

If you look at the manual section of loading and unloading rates, just remember to double the figures to get the whole-day rates. Of course, Michael is working on various updates to the manual so be on the look out for that language to potentially be corrected.

[crsutton]

Perhaps we can ask an AI player (they are useful after all [;)]) to run a test with a pure AKA, APA force, mixed, and then a force with none.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Perhaps we can ask an AI player (they are useful after all [;)]) to run a test with a pure AKA, APA force, mixed, and then a force with none.

Personally I wouldn't bother because I can't see relying on that for an assault landing. It could help with unloading the garrison and support troops after base is captured.

BTW, IIRC (big emphasis on IF) the APA/AKA do not need to be in the same TF as the ships they are helping unload.

[JeffroK]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Perhaps we can ask an AI player (they are useful after all [;)]) to run a test with a pure AKA, APA force, mixed, and then a force with none.

Personally I wouldn't bother because I can't see relying on that for an assault landing. It could help with unloading the garrison and support troops after base is captured.

BTW, IIRC (big emphasis on IF) the APA/AKA do not need to be in the same TF as the ships they are helping unload.

Nah, let one of those far superior PBEM players try it for themselves, how else you you expect to learn.

My system is to have my assault force have "enough" supply with it, a supply TF land at the same time and reinforcing LCU & Supply TF's a day behind. I found (may be a coincidence) that the second wave is very effective at winning the base as the defenders have been disrupted by the day 1 landings.

Grayjoy, dont forget to have a plan B, just in case he manages to hold you on the beaches. Reinforce, Retreat,whatever. Dont do a Rader and not know what to do when it goes pearshape.

PS. Do you still have some Paras and transports in the area??

Maybe a paradrop on Ontong Java, assuming its empty, the day before might get him reacting that way and give you an extra dyas grace?

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: JeffK


Grayjoy, dont forget to have a plan B, just in case he manages to hold you on the beaches. Reinforce, Retreat,whatever. Dont do a Rader and not know what to do when it goes pearshape.

PS. Do you still have some Paras and transports in the area??

Maybe a paradrop on Ontong Java, assuming its empty, the day before might get him reacting that way and give you an extra dyas grace?

A plan B....well, considering how close the target base is to my major bases, i should be able to reinforce my invasion force pretty easily or to dunkirk it if the the bad boys are too well dug in.
Ontong Java is already occupied by 2 Naval Guards Units...i had been reconning it for months now...I have paras, the equivalent of 2 full regiments....but i'd like to preserve the integrity of this great force for something more than a diversion...however i keep them at hand at Ndeni, along with 170 transport planes...just in case...along with 2 raiders BNs...

the game has slowed down this week cause Rader was travelling and the next one will be even slower cause i'm moving to Africa for a brief vacation with my GF...hopefully i'll get some internet access there but it will be no wonder if i will have trouble sending lot of turns back[:)].
Hope to get some 6/7 turns between today and monday

[JeffroK]

[8D]
Last map made it look empty.

Have you any other options to create a small diversion to get raders attention, even if it only gains you 1 turn.