Tokyo Rose was a Hussy! Chez (J) vs. Canoe (A)

[JeffroK]

Even with Chez's explanation it doesnt make sense.
 
If he wanted a quick raid he should have had plenty of recon in the area to see iff there were any targets, have hit Cocos Is, Padang etc to keep down Allied LBA and on being discovered by LBA recon have got out as quick as possible. Add to this he should have had 4 CV at least (and stayed historically true).
 
Another case of an assumption that japanese powers are stronger than they were, even his excuses about the weakness of an IJN stike should have given pause to pursuing this course.
 
IMVHO, he needed to do something, lets attack with 2 CV into the blue and HOPE the Allies have not secured the rear of their audacious Sumatra campaign, after all, CR is a newbie!!
 

[Ketza]

The moral of the story is attack Sumatra early and often!

[wpurdom]

desicat, sorry, I have to diagree again. Midway is not an example of the IJN "splitting up" the KB. What was operational of the KB (1st, 2d and 5th CV Div) operated as a unit at Midway. The 5th CV Div was damaged (Shokaku) or was rebuilding its airgroup (Zuikaku) and simply unavailable. The CVLs you reference never operated as part of the KB, nor did any other CVL operate as part of KB. Certainly, the KB was committed to battle at reduced strength at Midway, but the available KB CVs were all there. Perhaps we are splitting hairs here, but operationally, the IJN did not typically operate the KB as Chez has done in this game. They kept it together, except at the Coral Sea.

You're right that Midway is not a good example, but . . .

The very first operation after PH was committing Hiryu and Soryu alone in support of Wake, at a time to expect that the USN would have 3 CV's available. (And if Halsey had been in charge of the Wake relief force instead of Fletcher, there would have been a 2 v. 2 battle.) And the reason that the full KB wasn't at Midway was that only one division (the weakest) was committed to Coral Sea, at a time when they could expect to face 2 Allied CV's or 4 if the Allies put a maximum move on after the Doolittle raid. So on every occasion where there was a real prospect of encountering the USN they committing less than the full KB, though they would have had to make special efforts to raid other CV's to equip a 5th CV (Zuikaku) to Midway's KB. (But not too disimilar to things the USN did to support the Midway op (with the Yorktown) or Guadalcanal.)

[JeffroK]

ORIGINAL: wpurdom

desicat, sorry, I have to diagree again. Midway is not an example of the IJN "splitting up" the KB. What was operational of the KB (1st, 2d and 5th CV Div) operated as a unit at Midway. The 5th CV Div was damaged (Shokaku) or was rebuilding its airgroup (Zuikaku) and simply unavailable. The CVLs you reference never operated as part of the KB, nor did any other CVL operate as part of KB. Certainly, the KB was committed to battle at reduced strength at Midway, but the available KB CVs were all there. Perhaps we are splitting hairs here, but operationally, the IJN did not typically operate the KB as Chez has done in this game. They kept it together, except at the Coral Sea.

You're right that Midway is not a good example, but . . .

The very first operation after PH was committing Hiryu and Soryu alone in support of Wake, at a time to expect that the USN would have 3 CV's available. (And if Halsey had been in charge of the Wake relief force instead of Fletcher, there would have been a 2 v. 2 battle.) And the reason that the full KB wasn't at Midway was that only one division (the weakest) was committed to Coral Sea, at a time when they could expect to face 2 Allied CV's or 4 if the Allies put a maximum move on after the Doolittle raid. So on every occasion where there was a real prospect of encountering the USN they committing less than the full KB, though they would have had to make special efforts to raid other CV's to equip a 5th CV (Zuikaku) to Midway's KB. (But not too disimilar to things the USN did to support the Midway op (with the Yorktown) or Guadalcanal.)

Victory Fever!

[Lomri]

I think CR is right to be concerned about Chez's thoughts on this. In this case I think his "hand wringing" is justified. He is sensing from his opponent a dangerously low morale after the last move. Chez's tone when talking about this - words like "deathstar" - indicate a level of frustration that might indicate a player getting tired of the game. And that JUST happened to CR! Chez is likely to good a guy to throw in the towel, but that doesn't mean turns won't slow down or have less effort. (And CR certainly isn't taking it easy on him

The reality is that talking about deathstars and historical CV usage is all smoke and mirrors. Historically or game wise moving 2 CVs into unknown territory with a strong set of enemy airbases at your rear is just not a good idea. Chez is feeling the pain of his decision and may be displacing blame by saying that his airstrikes are anemic or an Allied deathstar is not defeatable. By the time he reads this he will have stepped away from the situation long enough to realize this. Hopefully he will realize it sooner than that even.

It almost makes me wonder if he doesn't realize how strong you are in Sumatra. It is almost impossible to believe that is true. As a player seeing a level 8 or 9 airfield anywhere is an indication of strong intentions. And you certainly don't casually move anywhere near them without a plan. Has he swept your sumatra airfields at all?

Well, I am no expert. If the narrative from the readers here is accurate, Chez is hesitating in DEI because of early set-backs. If these set-backs weigh so heavily on him, why is it every few game months the same behavior displays itself? It is especially difficult to understand through CR's eyes. I will be curious to read Chez's side when this is over. I think it will be very educational to see how it looks from the vantage of someone who got thrown off his stride so much it lead to the same mistakes again and again. Then you can better ask yourself when you have fallen into that trap.

[zuluhour]

I hope should you decide to visit Thurmont at some point you look me up. I would be happy to offer some Maryland hospitality in the form of a crab cake lunch or such. A thermos of Joe at Antietam?

[Ketza]

Columbia Maryland here!

[zuluhour]

I better bring an extra crab cake and another thermos.[;)]

[crsutton]

With Canoe, it is like speed chess. He is quick to react and exploit mistakes and likes to throw people off balance. That is just a good player.

Don't read too much into Chez's actions or thought process. He is just overmatched. I know it, you know it and he knows it.

I am willing to bet that given another start he would do much better. We all would.

[Canoerebel]

7/23/42

In the aftermath of the big carrier battle near Cocos Island, things are quiet across the map, though many wheels are in motion for the Allies (and possibly the same can be said for Japan, though I can't see through that glass clearly at the moment).

DEI: Benkolen forts reach level five. Palembang is a 7.51. USN APDs should drop off a Marine raider battalion on the island just south of Padang, Sumatra, tomorrow or the next day. A small Japanese force, possibly including one division, is moving overland towards Padang. By the time it arrives in a few weeks, the Alllies should have between 350 and 400 AV behind at least three forts. Given the jungle terrain, this should be enough to hold this important base barring IJA reinforcement. I'll reinforce if necessary. Also, the Allies continue to gather troops for eventual moves forward. The Sabang invasion forces are congregating at Colombo. Troops bound for Billiton and other islands north of Oosthaven and Palembang are gathering at Cochin, India. Ent and York will be ready to steam from Colombo in three days.

China: Two big Chinese armies are on the move east of Changsha, trying to see if there's an opportunity to strike the enemy base (Nanning? Nanking? Nanyang? Nannookie-of-the-North?).

NoPac: Wasp has entered the Bering Sea. The Paramushiro reinforcement and resupply convoys should be in position to make their runs in about a week or ten days. Maryland and Pennsylvania are on hand.

CenPac: No sign of the KB around Mili today.

SoPac: Japan is strongly reinforcing Savaii. Eight units there now. Let them come! Perhaps Steve will invade another island or two and commit large garrisons at those, also. That way, when the Allies move on the Santa Cruz Islands, Steve will find that he truly has a massive force isolated way out around Pago Pago and Fiji.

[princep01]

CR, this question might breach op sercurity protocol, but I assume you will use southern Sumatra as a launching pad for at least part of your eventual offensive action. Do you plan to retake Java to secure the right flank of that thrust or will you opt for a deeper strike designed to isolate the Japanese troops on Java? I am a bit too conservative and would opt to secure Java rather than by pass it. Other more bold souls would probably launch a deep strike onto Borneo or an island in the Phillipines rather than engaging and destroying the troops in Java.

[Canoerebel]

It's so early in the game that the Allies have to be very careful in choosing their battles. Japan has a multitude of infantry divisions available, so there's no way the allies can go toe-to-toe in a major ground campaign until much later in the game.

So the Allies will ignore Java while looking to the very inviting island bases to the north that are still Allied controlled. The Allies can occupy these at low risk, but each will put a great deal of pressure on Japan since the airfields can be built large. Once Steve sees infantry and engineers at Billiton Island, for instance, he's got to react violently. He's already in bad shape in the DEI, but losing control of the Java Sea and seeing growing enemy airfields heading north is going to get his full attention.

Job one for the Allies through the end of '42 is to remain vigilant in protecting Sumatra. Job two is to apply pressure that forces/persuades Japan to make mistakes. So this isn't really about territory; it's about creating a pressure cooker. That's something the Allies can do effectively even this early in the war.

[paullus99]

The more airfields you have, the better - since he will eventually (either on purpose or a reaction to your moves) concentrate his airpower against you, the ability to have multiple large airbases will make it difficult, if not impossible for him to shut you down before you can do catastrophic damage to his LBA.

[Canoerebel]

That's a big part of the equation. Already, Palembang and Benkolen are level seven fields (the latter is on the way to level nine); Oosthaven is a nine; Padang is a four; and Djambi, Lahat, and Prabaemolith have small fields which can be built large. So Steve will have trouble shutting down that many fields, especially given the amount of supply and numbe of engineering units around.

Establishing new airfields forward is going to ratchet up the pressure. I think the prospect of losing contorl of the Java Sea, plus airfields that much closer to Balikpan, etc., will hit him right in the gut. He's got to react and violenty, which are conditions in which players can make mistakes. It might also help reduce the pressure against Sumatra, and most likely would make Cocos Island a bit of a backwater.

[vettim89]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

It's so early in the game that the Allies have to be very careful in choosing their battles. Japan has a multitude of infantry divisions available, so there's no way the allies can go toe-to-toe in a major ground campaign until much later in the game.

So the Allies will ignore Java while looking to the very inviting island bases to the north that are still Allied controlled. The Allies can occupy these at low risk, but each will put a great deal of pressure on Japan since the airfields can be built large. Once Steve sees infantry and engineers at Billiton Island, for instance, he's got to react violently. He's already in bad shape in the DEI, but losing control of the Java Sea and seeing growing enemy airfields heading north is going to get his full attention.

Job one for the Allies through the end of '42 is to remain vigilant in protecting Sumatra. Job two is to apply pressure that forces/persuades Japan to make mistakes. So this isn't really about territory; it's about creating a pressure cooker. That's something the Allies can do effectively even this early in the war.

My thinking on this is that your opponent still has four major oil/refinery centers. While not having Palembang certainly puts a serious crimp on the Japanese economy and freedom of operations, it does not mean instant death. That said, Strategic Bombing and/or isolation of those remaining centers is not going to be much of a leap for you. You can be sure that Java will be heavily garrisoned and fortified with such a large Allied force just across the Selat Sunda, so, initially I agree that a counterinvasion there is a bad idea. That said, the one thing Java holds is a shipyard. At present, you center of operations is far away from any major Allied shipyard. If Chez does indeed fortify Java, Malaya becomes much more attractive. That is still months away but the big kuhuna of Singers looks mighty tasty from my stand point.

You can island hop across the western Java Sea to Serawak, Pontianak, and even Kuching. That will effective shut off Miri/Brunei. Then you could then either move toward Bandjermasin to cut off the Strait of Malucca or toward the southern PI to cap the entire SRA. Lots of options here. While this is going on if you keep just a moderate amount of pressure in the NorPac, you will truly strain the Japanese ability to fight on either front with max effort. By developing bases in the western Java Sea, you may eventually be able to use LBA alone to cover your advances. If you are able to do that, your carrier forces can then cause a lot of problems in the Pacific. My thinking is to gradually increase the pressure in the DEI until you can overwhelm the Japanese. If you time it right, the rest of the Pacific may collapse under the weight of even a moderate strength attack

[Canoerebel]

7/24/42

Some folks might be wondering why the Allies aren't pushing even harder than they are. There are two primary reasons: (1) the incredible shortage of political points for the Allies. I have continually drained the pool to permit the operations that have taken place to date, making it hard to orchestrate large new operations that would draw on restricted units; and (2) I have a bit of a transport shortage in the Pacific. Actually, I have quite a few good APs at Pearl Harbor, but I'm careful about using those, reserving them for invasion use rather than routine shuttling of troops from the West Coast to Hawaii. At the moment, I don't have enough xAP available to efficiently handle things. I'm working on that.

DEI: APDs will deliver 1st Marine Raiders to Siberot Island tonight. The APDs will then report to Oosthaven, where I intend to use them in some shuttling of troops to Billiton and Bangka islands (just north of Oosthaven). A base force and an engineer unit bound for Billiton and Toabali (on Bangka) begin loading on transports at Cochin, India, tonight. The Japanese have just landed at Mataram, east of Java, so Steve is attending to some house cleaning in the area.

China: In about two days, Steve will find out that the Chinese are on the move east of Changsha.

NoPac: Transports loaded with a US Army RCT will depart Adak Island tonight and then rendezvous with the combat ships, Wasp, and supply TFs well to the north. I believe these ships will each Para and vicinity in about a week. I'm looking forward to this "raising of the ante" and seeing how Steve reacts.

CenPac: I'm ready to move garrison troops plus engineers to Vanua Lava and Ndeni, but this operation is the vicitm of my xAP shortage at San Diego. I have a bunch of infantry units at Pearl that are prepping for Mili, but Steve is now strongly garrisoning and building that island. So, instead I will divert many of those units to the Santa Cruz operation, which will be effective because it will seriously compromise Steve's LOC to his outposts in New Caledonia, Fiji, and Savaii.

SoPac: Japan's airfield at Savaii just went to level two. Steve is clearly very focused on the campaign in the Samoa region, even though it's taking alot of time, with alot more still to come.

[Canoerebel]

Spurred on by my own thoughts in writing the previous post, I decided to move forward with the Santa Cruz operation. These islands are still Allied territory. I'm hoping I can send in garrisons and engineers "on the quiet," without encountering opposition. But I don't want to risk all my APs that far forward, so I'm going to divide the operation into several segments.

The first segment will be to garrison and begin building Ndeni. 27th RCT, several batallions of 132nd Infantry Division (135 AV; with the rest currently on Ocean Island), and 804 EAB will be sent to Ndeni from Pearl Harbor. I'll be using about eight APs, so this is a pretty "valuable" operation.

As things progress, the Allies will then proceed with the garrisoning of Vanua Lava.

At about the same time, the Allies might try a quicky raid on the IJ base at Luganville. That airfield is still a level zero, suggesting it may be very lightly garrisoned. I'm prepping about 350 AV for that target.

[princep01]

Ndeni is a bold move, but I sure like it. Even given a Scenario 2 game and the fact that it is just July 42, the IJN losses have been significant enough to justify a real offensive. I applaud your brazen courage:). Of course, I would think that getting in clean (unspotted) would be the key to a near bloodless coup de main, but even if you are spotted, it is doubtful he will be in a position to quickly intervene unless he has already disengaged those CVs around Savaii. It is alway possible that they might happen to stumble onto you in your approach. But, short of pure bad luck, you can abort the mission if it is compromised too soon. Lots of time. But, even an aborted mission will have a very negative affect on his already flimsy psychic and set off a rash of alarms.

Good luck. If successful, this will surely force a reduction in his perimeter or isolate most effectively the troops on Fiji and Samoa. Excellent strategy.

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

7/24/42

Some folks might be wondering why the Allies aren't pushing even harder than they are. There are two primary reasons: (1) the incredible shortage of political points for the Allies. I have continually drained the pool to permit the operations that have taken place to date, making it hard to orchestrate large new operations that would draw on restricted units; and (2) I have a bit of a transport shortage in the Pacific. Actually, I have quite a few good APs at Pearl Harbor, but I'm careful about using those, reserving them for invasion use rather than routine shuttling of troops from the West Coast to Hawaii. At the moment, I don't have enough xAP available to efficiently handle things. I'm working on that.

I can't speak for the Japanese side but the designers have done a great job with the PP allotments. My campaign is in 1944 and I am still always short of PP. You get enough but never so many that you can do what you would like to do. I only hope you JFBs are feeling the pinch as well.

[Cribtop]

Oh, yeah. We do. Not quite as acutely IMHO as we have fewer units to buy, but so long as you have to pay PPs to cross boundaries the IJA will have a lot of extra AS in Manchuria and Japan (even China at times) cooling its heels waiting for PPs