Participating in History (OT)

[LoBaron]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

ORIGINAL: fcharton
There's a lot of misunderstanding about those issues. Many europeans picture North America as a place where old people are left to starve or die for medieval diseases in the streets, while some Americans picture Europe as North Korea with white people in it. There's also a lot of politics involved too...
Francois

You're kidding about how many Europeans view North Americans?

I know you're wrong about some Americans viewing Europe as "North Korea with white people in it." I've never caught the slightest whiff that any American thought anything like that.

I DO know that one of the comments I already heard several times, whilst travelling the US and answered questions about where I was from, was "Nice, I always wanted to see Kangaroos in the wild...",
so it is not neccesarily always North Korea.
But my working place just might currently resemble some really bad place in NK, so thats not totally off limits.

Also, Francois is exaggerating a bit... [8D]

[fcharton]

Che200,

The Wikipedia data is from 2001, so that's before Obama. Those were the simplest data I could find, but I doubt more recent figures would change the values much. 1 point of US GDP is a huge amount of money, even large reforms don't achieve that in a couple of years.

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
You're kidding about how many Europeans view North Americans?

I know you're wrong about some Americans viewing Europe as "North Korea with white people in it." I've never caught the slightest whiff that any American thought anything like that.

I'm of course exagerating for effect... But there is some truth in both.

I have noticed on several occasions that the word "socialist", which our center-left parties use to name themselves, rings a much stronger bell in north american minds. We still have a communist party here (when I was a child it was very pro-Soviet, and claimed about 20% of voters), and nowadays, the extreme left (Trotskyists mostly) fetch 5-10% at every election. This comes as a shock to many American residents here.

Also our heavy taxes/high benefit system, which a majority supports, looks like a very far left idea to many american observers (it is curious, by the way, because this strain of capitalism is just as old as the anglo-american version, and the first country to try and implement modern social security was... Prussia, which few would associate with "socialism"... ).


The idea that America is a society without welfare, where the poor are (almost) left to die in the streets is, unfortunately, pretty common in continental Europe (at least in France). It is not quite "how" the french view america, because there is a lot of genuine admiration for the USA, especially among the middle class. But the idea that America, though great and fascinating, is a harsh and brutal society, is quite common.

Francois

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: fcharton
The idea that America is a society without welfare, where the poor are (almost) left to die in the streets is, unfortunately, pretty common in continental Europe (at least in France). It is not quite "how" the french view america, because there is a lot of genuine admiration for the USA, especially among the middle class. But the idea that America, though great and fascinating, is a harsh and brutal society, is quite common.

My experience from any number of discussions with Europeans-particularly younger or less educated / travelled ones-confirms this perspective.

[chesmart]

Same in my country François We have a centre left and centre right party which are basically centrist parties. A small minority here especially middle class understand the difference but we have a small minority who are extreme leftists/anarchists who classify themselves as liberals and are at present in the limelight down here especially after the divorce campaign. There idea of the EU crisis is to bury there heads in the ground let everybody sink. Luckily in Malta the economy has not gone into recession for the past 20 years and our average growth has been circa 4% PA . The problem is we have a lot of state costs which probably would put us on the top of that list we are talking 50-55% of GDP go to education and health services. Yes we spend more than Sweden and Finland Per capita.

[Ketza]

In my dealings with and travels around countries in Europe it seemed that the French had a genuine disdain for americans.

Even when I took a trip to Normandy I found the local French rather unpleasant even far away from Paris. I was also shocked at the number of beggars and trinket hawkers and just how pushy and rude they were.

It was so bad in Paris that my wife and I vowed to never return.

Does the French view of America have anything to do with their attitudes or are they that way with everyone?

[Canoerebel]

My father, who is a World War II veteran, has been to Normandy for a handful of the D-Day Anniversary celebrations over the past ten or fifteen years (he came ashore on D Plus Four). He says that all of the French citizens he's met on those trips have been wonderful, with a very evident affection for Americans (at least for American veterans of World War II). You'd expect to find a more welcoming environment under those conditions, but every American I've ever known who visited Normandy has come away impressed, with positive reports about the French people they met.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Ketza

In my dealings with and travels around countries in Europe it seemed that the French had a genuine disdain for americans.

Even when I took a trip to Normandy I found the local French rather unpleasant even far away from Paris. I was also shocked at the number of beggars and trinket hawkers and just how pushy and rude they were.

It was so bad in Paris that my wife and I vowed to never return.

Does the French view of America have anything to do with their attitudes or are they that way with everyone?

Warspite1

You are not alone in that. My experience of the French in their own country has been generally bad - which is a real shame [:(]. Mind you, manners seem to be going out the window everywhere - in the UK as much, if not more, as anywhere else......

[Ketza]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

My father, who is a World War II veteran, has been to Normandy for a handful of the D-Day Anniversary celebrations over the past ten or fifteen years (he came ashore on D Plus Four). He says that all of the French citizens he's met on those trips have been wonderful, with a very evident affection for Americans (at least for American veterans of World War II). You'd expect to find a more welcoming environment under those conditions, but every American I've ever known who visited Normandy has come away impressed, with positive reports about the French people they met.

Maybe around the anniversary they become friendly


We left Paris at around 8am and drove to Normandy not using any maps and going from my military history knowledge we actually found our way to Juno beach around noonish. We were starving so we parked near the inlet and walked past the fresh fish carts to find a restaraunt.

When we walked into the first restaraunt (4 of us) we asked to be seated. The waiter actually rolled his eyes when he realized we were from the USA. He seated us and even tho the place was not crowded did not come back for 10 minutes. We explained that we could not read the menu and there were no pictures of the food. Now at most french restaraunts in France they bring a chalkboard over to your table with the menu written in english for tourists. He finally brought us a board but it was written in French and he walked away. After another 10 minutes he had not returned so we just left.

The next restaraunt there was actually a waiter from Phoenix Arizona! His parents had moved to France for work and had to move back to the states and he had stayed. He was a great waiter and we had a wonderful meal before we wandered off to visit the beachs.

[chesmart]

I work all over Europe I normally travel every 2 weeks and in France I have learnt that if you speak in French even my broken French the atmosphere changes so it is more a cultural problem then hostility to Americans. Had the same problem in Greece lately when I was there when there where the protests if I used English I was ignored but if I used another language I got great service. The worst experience I ever had was in turkey had a very bad experience there.

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: Ketza

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

My father, who is a World War II veteran, has been to Normandy for a handful of the D-Day Anniversary celebrations over the past ten or fifteen years (he came ashore on D Plus Four). He says that all of the French citizens he's met on those trips have been wonderful, with a very evident affection for Americans (at least for American veterans of World War II). You'd expect to find a more welcoming environment under those conditions, but every American I've ever known who visited Normandy has come away impressed, with positive reports about the French people they met.

Maybe around the anniversary they become friendly


We left Paris at around 8am and drove to Normandy not using any maps and going from my military history knowledge we actually found our way to Juno beach around noonish. We were starving so we parked near the inlet and walked past the fresh fish carts to find a restaraunt.

When we walked into the first restaraunt (4 of us) we asked to be seated. The waiter actually rolled his eyes when he realized we were from the USA. He seated us and even tho the place was not crowded did not come back for 10 minutes. We explained that we could not read the menu and there were no pictures of the food. Now at most french restaraunts in France they bring a chalkboard over to your table with the menu written in english for tourists. He finally brought us a board but it was written in French and he walked away. After another 10 minutes he had not returned so we just left.

The next restaraunt there was actually a waiter from Phoenix Arizona! His parents had moved to France for work and had to move back to the states and he had stayed. He was a great waiter and we had a wonderful meal before we wandered off to visit the beachs.

My X's dad was an international airline pilot. He used to dred the Paris run. Said city was sewer and the people were nasty as hell. Odd.

[fcharton]

ORIGINAL: Ketza
In my dealings with and travels around countries in Europe it seemed that the French had a genuine disdain for americans.

I don't think this is true. There are anti-american feelings in France, but they are mixed with genuine admiration and interest. You'd be surprised by the number of american festivals here, even in small cities (there was one in the very small town where I lived, two weeks ago, third one I see in four years I've lived here)



Experiences as tourists are a different matter, you can be lucky, or very unlucky. As Che200 observed, trying to speak the language (or just pretending) does help a lot...

Francois

[chesmart]

The French are very proud of there language

[mike scholl 1]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus
My X's dad was an international airline pilot. He used to dred the Paris run. Said city was sewer and the people were nasty as hell. Odd.

This matches my own experiance. The folks in Lille, Caen, and Cherbourg were all pleasant and friendly..., but in Paris they looked down on us and treated us like lepers. Quite frankly, I quickly felt the same about Parisians.

[Canoerebel]

This isn't directed at anyone in particular, certainly not at Mike, but we'd better halt this particular tangent and get back on topic. Which is: personal experiences in the rather historic economic troubles we are currently experiencing.

[fcharton]

ORIGINAL: che200
but we have a small minority who are extreme leftists/anarchists who classify themselves as liberals and are at present in the limelight down here especially after the divorce campaign. There idea of the EU crisis is to bury there heads in the ground let everybody sink.

It is one curious consequence of the current crisis. Opposition to the EU, here, used to be a rightwing affair. Basically, people would oppose the EU because it would create a bureaucracy on top of the nation, because it would deprive us of some of our basic rights (important things, I mean, like cheese and forcefed geese), and because it would allow foreigners to have a say in our affairs. I believe UK opposition to the EU goes along these lines.

Over the last decade, however, such "nationalist" critics have been less and less vocal, probably because in actual practice, european states have retained a lot of their rights (some former critics are now scolding the EU for not being strong enough...).

With the economic crisis, a new form of opposition to the EU appeared, on the left of the political spectrum. To them, the EU is sold to big corporations, and threatens our social systems by pushing for less state intervention in the economy, privatisation of public services, and the end of free education and social security. This opinion is now very common among the young and the workers.

Francois