Experimental map data file with stacking limits

[inqistor]

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Thank Andrew
The presence of a base in a hex provides an extrinsic benefit to the side holding the base
This is what i meant to ask.

Maybe now base owner will have at last advantage, during fight, at all those small starving spots in Burma? [:D]

[JWE]

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown
From memory, the island size stacking limits are applied per side. But Michael can give a definitive answer. The new hex limits are applied using the same process, so should operate in the same way.

The way it is meant to work for island is - the smaller of the two stacking limits (island size vs the new per hex limits) is the one that will be applied.

Andrew

Yep, Island size is limits are per side. So SLs are per side.

Can't do much quick responding for a couple days. Bought a Harley and am doing the H-D Motorcycle Safety Course. Sat and Sun. Starts at 0700 and goes all day long. Woof !!!

[JeffroK]

ORIGINAL: JWE

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown
From memory, the island size stacking limits are applied per side. But Michael can give a definitive answer. The new hex limits are applied using the same process, so should operate in the same way.

The way it is meant to work for island is - the smaller of the two stacking limits (island size vs the new per hex limits) is the one that will be applied.

Andrew

Yep, Island size is limits are per side. So SLs are per side.

Can't do much quick responding for a couple days. Bought a Harley and am doing the H-D Motorcycle Safety Course. Sat and Sun. Starts at 0700 and goes all day long. Woof !!!

2nd childhood setting in![:'(]

[Alfred]

ORIGINAL: JWE

... Can't do much quick responding for a couple days. Bought a Harley and am doing the H-D Motorcycle Safety Course. Sat and Sun. Starts at 0700 and goes all day long. Woof !!!

Typical selfish human reaction. Have you thought about Beaudy? It won't be easy for him to ride as a pillon passenger. Mind you, if you can surmount that issue, he would probably OD with all those newly available fragances.[:)]

Alfred

[JWE]

Ok, passed the course and got my card. Got my motorcycle endorsement on my driver's license, and a MSF discount on insurance. Pick up the bike Tuesday, after the holiday, and bring it home. WOOF !!!

ORIGINAL: Alfred
Typical selfish human reaction. Have you thought about Beaudy? It won't be easy for him to ride as a pillon passenger. Mind you, if you can surmount that issue, he would probably OD with all those newly available fragances.[:)]

Alfred

Are you kidding? Harley has three different kinds of dog cozys that fit my bike. The local Baldwin County Hog chapter has a seminar on gear and training. There's one couple who have done 10,000 miles with their pet doberman. Have no fear, Beaudy is "on the bike" for roadtrips.

[ed] there's a dog harness that has to be used with all the different cozys. If I take Beaudy through the training class, I can get Beaudy a denim harness cover with his own special colors ... "Beast Rider MC"; how cool is that?

[Buck Beach]

ORIGINAL: JWE

Ok, passed the course and got my card. Got my motorcycle endorsement on my driver's license, and a MSF discount on insurance. Pick up the bike Tuesday, after the holiday, and bring it home. WOOF !!!

ORIGINAL: Alfred
Typical selfish human reaction. Have you thought about Beaudy? It won't be easy for him to ride as a pillon passenger. Mind you, if you can surmount that issue, he would probably OD with all those newly available fragances.

Alfred

Are you kidding? Harley has three different kinds of dog cozys that fit my bike. The local Baldwin County Hog chapter has a seminar on gear and training. There's one couple who have done 10,000 miles with their pet doberman. Have no fear, Beaudy is "on the bike" for roadtrips.

[ed] there's a dog harness that has to be used with all the different cozys. If I take Beaudy through the training class, I can get Beaudy a denim harness cover with his own special colors ... "Beast Rider MC"; how cool is that?

Damn JWE those bikes are a young man's game! Doesn't take much of a screw up or a senior moment to turn you into a vegetable or worse. For Christ sakes be super careful (at least until you are all done improving DaBabes[;)]

[Alfred]

ORIGINAL: JWE

... There's one couple who have done 10,000 miles with their pet doberman. Have no fear, Beaudy is "on the bike" for roadtrips ...

Let me guess. They didn't bother making their HD secure when they went inside for a coffee on the 10k travels. The downside was that the doberman didn't make any new friends. For some unknowable reason, people hesitated in approaching him.

Seriously didn't know about the American after market add ons. Back here we only very occasionally see a kelpie or cattle dog riding freestyle on a bike. Usually they are catching a lift home from a day's work rounding up the sheep.[:)] Don't usually see any riding pillon on urban roads.

Alfred

[JWE]

Oh, groin. Well I've already OT'd this thread to heck already, but I'll move the response to THE THREAD over in the War Room. C'mon over and chat.

[herwin]

Some old notes on stacking and road/rail capacity in Italy:

1. Lowland limits: a major highway could supply a reinforced corps (3 divisions plus an armoured brigade and an AGRA) on a 8-mile front. Mud reduced that to 70%.
2. Hills/woods: about 90% of those figures.
3. Mountains/forest: about 40% of those figures.
4. A minor road reduced those figures to 60% times the base.
5. Lowland paths: about the same as a minor road.
6. Hilly/wooded paths: about 30%.
7. Mountain/forest paths: unsupplied.
8. Swamps: about 40%.
9. Mountain or light units on paths: about the same as a minor road.

RR line capacities were 2500-5000 tons/day.

2.5 ton trucks had an effective long-term payload of about 3.2 tons. To move 1200 tons/day with a 30 hour turnaround took 16x2.5 ton companies (36 trucks operating, 12 in maintenance).

Pipelines were much more efficient than trucks or rail.

[JWE]

Quick caution on 1108q9. It contains activation for nationality code 41 (a good thing), but also contains different cross checks for base terrain vs island size stacking limits.

Big pow-wow on settling this. Two or three different ways of doing it and, wouldn't ya know it, ended up implementing a fourth [:D][:D]

Now it's settled, conforming to it is easy, but the current stacking limit pwhexes won't show realistic island size stacking limits. Originally done bottom-up, but 1108q9 checks top-down. Woof !!

So give us a day or so to do the nasty and we should have some good looking (and hopefully finalized) map data files with stacking limits. [8D]

Ciao. John

[Mac Linehan]

John -

Many thanks to the whole Team for all the hard work done to improve and tweak AE.

Mac

P.S. I trust that you and Beaudy will be safe, and enjoy many insect free miles and beautiful sunny days on your Harley...

[herwin]

I found the sources for the road capacities in Italy. US Army planning figures.

Supply combat zone:

Good weather flat/rolling/mountain
2 lane dirt 1600/1200/300 tons/day
2 lane gravel 3400/2700/1000
2 lane asphalt 6000/5000/2300
2 lane concrete 8500/7500/3400

1 lane dirt 1200/900/200
1 lane gravel 2500/2000/750
1 lane asphalt 4500/4000/1800
1 lane concrete 6300/5500/2500

Bad weather
2 lane dirt 150/120/30
2 lane gravel 1400/1100/250
2 lane asphalt 4000/3600/1500
2 lane concrete 6000/5300/2300

1 lane dirt 110/90/20
1 lane gravel 1100/800/200
1 lane asphalt 3000/2700/1100
1 lane concrete 4500/4000/1700

Single track RR 4000/4000/4000
Double track RR 12000/12000/12000

Tons per day required for a division slice, static:
British 650
US 760
German motorised 660
German infantry 400

Tons per day required for a division slice, moving:
British 1950
US 2280
German motorised 1980
German infantry 1200

Base capacity in the communications zone for a two-lane road:
Dirt 4900 tons/day
Gravel 6000 tons/day
Paved 36000 tons/day

[JWE]

ORIGINAL: Mac Linehan
John -

Many thanks to the whole Team for all the hard work done to improve and tweak AE.

Mac

P.S. I trust that you and Beaudy will be safe, and enjoy many insect free miles and beautiful sunny days on your Harley...

You are very welcome Mac. It's people like you that we do the work for.

We'll definitely try to be safe. Neither me nor Beaudy is a "bugs in your teeth" kinda rider. Installed a windshield and got him some way cool doggie goggles. He looks like a War I pilot. And his Harley Beast Rider vest is a stone chick magnet. Took him to the beach and we were hanging out on Cloutier's patio and ended up sharing a table with a couple from Mobile HOGs and two gushing coeds from LSU; ... "ohhh, what a cute little dawg!" ... [8D]

[JWE]

ORIGINAL: herwin
I found the sources for the road capacities in Italy. US Army planning figures.

Harry, the people doing this stuff know all that already. It is not material to how the algorithm works. If you must exhibit your facility with Internet sources, I would ask you to please do so in your own thread. Academic appreciations are nice, but have no bearing on what we are doing in these threads. Please be more circumspect. Thanks.

[Mac Linehan]

ORIGINAL: JWE

ORIGINAL: Mac Linehan
John -

Many thanks to the whole Team for all the hard work done to improve and tweak AE.

Mac

P.S. I trust that you and Beaudy will be safe, and enjoy many insect free miles and beautiful sunny days on your Harley...

You are very welcome Mac. It's people like you that we do the work for.

We'll definitely try to be safe. Neither me nor Beaudy is a "bugs in your teeth" kinda rider. Installed a windshield and got him some way cool doggie goggles. He looks like a War I pilot. And his Harley Beast Rider vest is a stone chick magnet. Took him to the beach and we were hanging out on Cloutier's patio and ended up sharing a table with a couple from Mobile HOGs and two gushing coeds from LSU; ... "ohhh, what a cute little dawg!" ... [8D]

Beaudy -

I was going to ask if Dad was planning on doggie eye wear, it seems he is already on it.

Original:
And his Harley Beast Rider vest is a stone chick magnet. Took him to the beach and we were hanging out on Cloutier's patio and ended up sharing a table with a couple from Mobile HOGs and two gushing coeds from LSU; ... "ohhh, what a cute little dawg!" ... [8D]
[/quote]

Sir - I sense a plan here - you are a cunning rascal...

Mac

[ny59giants]

Beaudy IS John's pick up line. [;)]

[Blackhorse]

I'm delighted to see that you are rolling out hex stacking limits for testing.

I would like to playtest this; unfortunately, my day job does not leave me enough time. So I'll be "Colonel Blimp" and voice my concerns for others to resolve (or ignore) in playtesting [:)]

My concern with stacking limits based on the number of troops is that the limits may (counter-intuitively) give an advantage to artillery and armor-heavy forces in difficult (jungle, mountain, wooded, rough, swamp) terrain.

Also, the limits may allow the Japanese an ahistorically easy advance through difficult terrain in China, once the Chinese and Japanese are capped at the same troop ceiling. This removes China's only advantage in the theater -- the ability to outnumber the Japanese; while maximizing Japan's advantages -- more firepower and AV per soldier.

[JWE]

Howdy Joel,

Understand your concerns. Couple things to realize about SLs.

1 The Sls relate to game troop density, not IRL troop density. IRL troop densities are very different; about 2 to 3 times game troop densities. So IRL troop density concerns don’t have much relevance to the algorithm.

2 The SLs aren’t hard limits. If either side goes over the limit what happens is they experience greater fatigue and disruption (random 1 to 5 for each unit) and, most importantly, eat supply at a higher rate; for each 10% over the stack limit, supply usage increases by an additional 20%. Obviously, the larger the SL for a hex, the larger the unit that can cause an overstack and begin the supply penalty.

There’s lots of headroom, in the vast majority of China hexes, for major battles with very large formations, on both sides. There’s generally room for 3 J-Divs and supporting combat troops (Arty, Tanks, and Engs), facing 4 to 5 Chinese Corps (about 60-80k per side, per hex). The only thing limited is the Megastack.

The SLs try to take account of the 3:1 ratio. In a fully occupied defended hex, it’s gonna be a bitch for an attacker to get a decent ratio for more than a few turns because of the limits. But then that’s how it was, yeah? So I don’t think Japan is gonna run rampant. If China chooses well and defends correctly, results in that theater might show up a bit closer to nominal: and an SL limited ‘difficult’ terrain hex will swing even more to the defender’s advantage.

No advantage to Arty. Believe me Joel, that’s the first thing we tested. Frankly, arty works like it’s supposed to if it’s used as it was.

Armor is helpful, but we’ve been using Babes where the whole armor thing has been redone. Haven’t seen anything where armor provides any significant advantage. In highly disadvantageous terrain, it is proportionally disadvantaged.

But, of course, all this is predicated on the players being righteous. And those are the very players the SLs were done for.

Garry Owen, ya horsey boy. John

[Blackhorse]

Yikes! A Redleg who has thought things through. Who'd a thunk it?

ORIGINAL: JWE

Howdy Joel,

Understand your concerns. Couple things to realize about SLs.

1 The Sls relate to game troop density, not IRL troop density. IRL troop densities are very different; about 2 to 3 times game troop densities. So IRL troop density concerns don’t have much relevance to the algorithm.

2 The SLs aren’t hard limits. If either side goes over the limit what happens is they experience greater fatigue and disruption (random 1 to 5 for each unit) and, most importantly, eat supply at a higher rate; for each 10% over the stack limit, supply usage increases by an additional 20%. Obviously, the larger the SL for a hex, the larger the unit that can cause an overstack and begin the supply penalty.

There’s lots of headroom, in the vast majority of China hexes, for major battles with very large formations, on both sides. There’s generally room for 3 J-Divs and supporting combat troops (Arty, Tanks, and Engs), facing 4 to 5 Chinese Corps (about 60-80k per side, per hex). The only thing limited is the Megastack.

The SLs try to take account of the 3:1 ratio. In a fully occupied defended hex, it’s gonna be a bitch for an attacker to get a decent ratio for more than a few turns because of the limits. But then that’s how it was, yeah? So I don’t think Japan is gonna run rampant. If China chooses well and defends correctly, results in that theater might show up a bit closer to nominal: and an SL limited ‘difficult’ terrain hex will swing even more to the defender’s advantage.

No advantage to Arty. Believe me Joel, that’s the first thing we tested. Frankly, arty works like it’s supposed to if it’s used as it was.

Armor is helpful, but we’ve been using Babes where the whole armor thing has been redone. Haven’t seen anything where armor provides any significant advantage. In highly disadvantageous terrain, it is proportionally disadvantaged.

But, of course, all this is predicated on the players being righteous. And those are the very players the SLs were done for.

Garry Owen, ya horsey boy. John

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: Blackhorse

I'm delighted to see that you are rolling out hex stacking limits for testing.

I would like to playtest this; unfortunately, my day job does not leave me enough time. So I'll be "Colonel Blimp" and voice my concerns for others to resolve (or ignore) in playtesting [:)]

My concern with stacking limits based on the number of troops is that the limits may (counter-intuitively) give an advantage to artillery and armor-heavy forces in difficult (jungle, mountain, wooded, rough, swamp) terrain.

Also, the limits may allow the Japanese an ahistorically easy advance through difficult terrain in China, once the Chinese and Japanese are capped at the same troop ceiling. This removes China's only advantage in the theater -- the ability to outnumber the Japanese; while maximizing Japan's advantages -- more firepower and AV per soldier.

Hi Blackhorse,

There have been a number of such concerns raised. My view is that "the proof of the pudding is in the eating". Unfortunately, I am in the same boat as you - not enough free time to do any testing of my own.

Andrew