Database upgrade TOE vs devices/scen 2

[viberpol]

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

OK been investigating the Tuype 95 not upgrading looks deliberate OOB decison as almost no Type 98's or type 2's were actually built and if the upgrade path was left in all tanks would upgrade on day 1 of the game as there is no way to stop the Industry expending all the Japanese Vehicle points for the upgrade.

So this is NOT an error but looks deliberate only K can confirm.

p.s. You dont need to agree witht he logic but having looked into it I am convinced its deliberate

The typo on the Type 2 may or may not be correct again K would need to confirm.

Only the SD issue is IMO a bug

OK, Andy thank you for comments. [:)]
But think about it this way... how many Type 3 heavy (EDIT: so called "medium" [;)]) tank has been built IRL? (never used in combat btw...)
About 150... Wiki says 166.
How many Type 98 light tanks has been built given the tank has really been produced since '42/or '43? Again wiki says 104.


So why are we stuck with mediocre Type 95 if we have full contingents of equally rare Type 3?
Maybe the availability day of Type 98 should be changed for... say 01.43 (not 12.41 as it is now)?
Or, as suggested, maybe a new real Type 4 Ke-Nu should be introduced (also about 100 built and foreseen as a real successor, maybe even instead of Type 98, which, as it is now in real PBEM in '44 doesn't seem to be even used ingame?) as an upgrade for Type 95 in '44?

The typo in Type 2 light tanks seems clear (but again, I am not a specialist).
The Type 2 used the same secondary armament as Type 98 (1 machine gun) and a better version of 37 mm gun (this is reflected by increase of anti-armor value from 50 to 60).

[Andy Mac]

I am NOT an expert in Japanese munitions but could it be a better AT gun is a worse Anti Personell weapon ??
 
No idea why K made the choice but it may have been a balancing act within Industry/Vehicle Points/Utility all I am saying is it looks deliberate.

[Andy Mac]

I am speculating but the Type 3 was in production from its inception it WAS intended to replace the previous heavy tanks but industry could produce enough its a wafer thin distinction I agree but it was intended to replace them and high command had they had the induisrty would have and it was still in production at the end of the war
 
Whereas the 98/2 were both stopped 98 stopped production in 43 and Type 2 was never mass produced.
 
So in essence I think the decision not to allow the 95 to upgrade is correct

[PaxMondo]

Andy,
 
Greatly appreciate your looking into this.
 
 
Thanks!!!

[viberpol]

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

I am speculating but the Type 3 was in production from its inception it WAS intended to replace the previous heavy tanks but industry could produce enough its a wafer thin distinction I agree but it was intended to replace them and high command had they had the induisrty would have and it was still in production at the end of the war

Whereas the 98/2 were both stopped 98 stopped production in 43 and Type 2 was never mass produced.

So in essence I think the decision not to allow the 95 to upgrade is correct

Erm... is there a way to check what units use or will use a given device?
I am asking because I don't have old saves from my game and currently Tracker says that none Type 98 tank has been produced, used or destroyed and none will be in future reinforcements...

Trying to find logic in it...
If there was no intention of 778 --> 779 --> 780 upgrade path
why introduce the data of a tank that's not used in any units, nor there's a path leading towards it?

[Andy Mac]

OK guys as I said up front this is not my area of expertise need to talk to kereguelen.
 
IMO based on what my own research in last 24 hours I can see a logical reason for Type 95  not to upgrade and for the heavies to be allowed to upgrade
 
Based on fact that successors to 95 were basically abandoned IRL after minimal production runs - which are represented by a couple of units that get this device.
 
The heavies were being replaced and produced at end of war with the intention of replacing all of the other heavies so if I was doing OOB I would have done exactly what team has done based on my own research over last 24 hours.
 
But if you dont like it crank out the editor and change it (or ask Kereguelen as this is his area not mine he has the source books)
 
Only way to check who gets what device is to crank uo editor or game and look through them unless tracker can do it ?
 
 

[Andy Mac]

Re the radar point please be aware we cannot limit Japanese production its all or nothign if a device is available and their is enough industry it will be produced.
 
Therefore some compromiese were made
 
I need to check if this was one of them.
 
ALl JNAF Aviation units get radar as do the JAAF base forces so there is not a shortage of radar sets this may have been a late compromise (I am checking so bear with me - I agree it looks like an error but it may have been a late productio capability balancing issue)
 
Andy

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

I agree it looks like an error but it may have been a late productio capability balancing issue)

Andy

Which would be completely understandable. Look forward to your results.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

... please be aware we cannot limit Japanese production its all or nothign if a device is available and their is enough industry it will be produced.

So, if in the editor you set "Can Build" to "Yes" and the "Build Rate" to 10, that doesn't necessarily mean that you will be limited to 10/month per the editor manual?


P13 of the wtipae-editor manual states:
"Build Rate is the average monthly reinforcement rate for the device. Once the device reaches its
Availability Date, a number equal to the Build Rate/30 will be placed in the device pool (fractional
values have a chance of being rounded up)."

Just want to be sure I understand correctly, as this is pretty important when creating a mod.

Thanks!!

[inqistor]

ORIGINAL: viberpol

So why are we stuck with mediocre Type 95 if we have full contingents of equally rare Type 3?
Maybe the availability day of Type 98 should be changed for... say 01.43 (not 12.41 as it is now)?
Or, as suggested, maybe a new real Type 4 Ke-Nu should be introduced (also about 100 built and foreseen as a real successor, maybe even instead of Type 98, which, as it is now in real PBEM in '44 doesn't seem to be even used ingame?) as an upgrade for Type 95 in '44?

Japan have shortages of Vehicle Points production, at the beginning, and serious surplus in late-war, so actually introducing new model later seems right thing to do, to suck all this surplus, and force player to keep points production.
Also, I actually thought, that the fifth Sound Detector not upgrading was WAD, but from Armament Points side, it could be beneficial to burn lots of them for radar upgrades. How much does radar weights?

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

The typo on the Type 2 may or may not be correct again K would need to confirm.

If tank have used MG the current value is surely too low.

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

So, if in the editor you set "Can Build" to "Yes" and the "Build Rate" to 10, that doesn't necessarily mean that you will be limited to 10/month per the editor manual?

I have tested it, and "Build Rate" have no any influence on Japanese production. However, maybe it will work, when "Can Build" will be set to "No", as Michaelm mentioned, that it is only used for Japanese side.

[Andy Mac]

Build rate is irrelevant for Japan Japan builds what it needs
 
Hence the all or nothing comment

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Build rate is irrelevant for Japan Japan builds what it needs

Hence the all or nothing comment

Thanks for confirming for me. Gotta go re-think some stuff now. [:(]

Pretty sure some single malt will help ...

[Kereguelen]

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

OK been investigating the Tuype 95 not upgrading looks deliberate OOB decison as almost no Type 98's or type 2's were actually built and if the upgrade path was left in all tanks would upgrade on day 1 of the game as there is no way to stop the Industry expending all the Japanese Vehicle points for the upgrade.

So this is NOT an error but looks deliberate only K can confirm.

p.s. You dont need to agree witht he logic but having looked into it I am convinced its deliberate

The typo on the Type 2 may or may not be correct again K would need to confirm.

Only the SD issue is IMO a bug

(a) Your assumptions about the Type 95 Tank (upgrade etc.) are absolutely correct. Design decisison (good guesswork, correct on all accounts).

(b) The radar upgrades were done by the Air Team (the only part of the Japanese ground OOB done by the Air Team). Probably by TimTom. Cannot comment on this.

(c) Type 2 Tank: Error (typo) carried over from stock WITP, anti-soft should probably be 14.

(d) 88mm AA Gun. Problem solved?

[Andy Mac]

(a) Good ta K
(b) OK I think is an error as I did those
(c) Aye
(d) Aye

[viberpol]

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen
(a) Your assumptions about the Type 95 Tank (upgrade etc.) are absolutely correct. Design decisison (good guesswork, correct on all accounts).

But isn't it a bit questionable decision anyway? [&:]
Please, someone enlighten me and tell me I am wrong, and there really are units using/that used or will be using Type 98 light tank?
If no unit uses it so what does it do in the database? Being an ornament only? [;)]

I think it's useful to compare real 2nd scenario PBEM march '44 numbers with some quasi-official info from Osprey's book with table of production.
What strikes me is the difference of almost non-existent in game active medium tanks (types 89/97) while IRL those were produced and used in quite good numbers (almost 1500 in first three years of war + more than a 1000 in years 1938-40!). One can argue that those are reflected by bigger number of Type 1 and/or Type 3, but those IMHO are just a song of the future and are produced from '44 onwards, so they reflect actually the potential of "better that IRL" Japan strategy & play (remember PBEM real data comes from "steroided" 2nd scenario).

And then again... should we really ignore type 98 light tanks? Yeah...let's ignore 5 - 10% of Japanese light tanks... [8|]
The Type 98/2 were produced in bigger numbers (according to different sources between 100 and 200) than say tankettes type 97 (IRL 58, PBEM 300 active in different LCUs).

I am not saying that all the Type 98 tanks should upgrade with Type 98,
but maybe at least some armored regiments should upgrade it's TOE and use more 98/ or 97 mediums instead of Type 95?
That's IMHO a good countermeasure (because TOE upgrade gives us more opportunities than simple device upgrade on availability date) so that it wouldn't be Andy's "all or nothing" thoughts. [;)]

[Andy Mac]

Some units late war arrive equipped with the type2/98

[Kereguelen]

ORIGINAL: viberpol

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen
(a) Your assumptions about the Type 95 Tank (upgrade etc.) are absolutely correct. Design decisison (good guesswork, correct on all accounts).

But isn't it a bit questionable decision anyway? [&:]

You are perfectly free to question the decision.

ORIGINAL: viberpol
Please, someone enlighten me and tell me I am wrong, and there really are units using/that used or will be using Type 98 light tank?
If no unit uses it so what does it do in the database? Being an ornament only? [;)]

I could not find any Japanese tank unit that used them operationally. And this is the reason why no unit uses them in the game.

ORIGINAL: viberpol
I think it's useful to compare real 2nd scenario PBEM march '44 numbers with some quasi-official info from Osprey's book with table of production.

Better refer to scenario 1...

ORIGINAL: viberpol
What strikes me is the difference of almost non-existent in game active medium tanks (types 89/97) while IRL those were produced and used in quite good numbers (almost 1500 in first three years of war + more than a 1000 in years 1938-40!). One can argue that those are reflected by bigger number of Type 1 and/or Type 3, but those IMHO are just a song of the future and are produced from '44 onwards, so they reflect actually the potential of "better that IRL" Japan strategy & play (remember PBEM real data comes from "steroided" 2nd scenario).

There are some Type 89 and Type 97 tanks available at start. But the IJA Type 89 was already regarded as obsolete by the IJA in December 1941 and phased out in 1942 (slow, underarmed, undergunned 1920's design infantry support tank).

ORIGINAL: viberpol
And then again... should we really ignore type 98 light tanks? Yeah...let's ignore 5 - 10% of Japanese light tanks... [8|]
The Type 98/2 were produced in bigger numbers (according to different sources between 100 and 200) than say tankettes type 97 (IRL 58, PBEM 300 active in different LCUs).

The Type 97 Tankette had been in production since 1938. Total prodcution was more than 550.

ORIGINAL: viberpolI am not saying that all the Type 98 tanks should upgrade with Type 98,
but maybe at least some armored regiments should upgrade it's TOE and use more 98/ or 97 mediums instead of Type 95?
That's IMHO a good countermeasure (because TOE upgrade gives us more opportunities than simple device upgrade on availability date) so that it wouldn't be Andy's "all or nothing" thoughts. [;)]

Could be done in a mod by various means but hardly warrants a change of the official scenarios.

[viberpol]

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac
the SD issue is IMO a bug

(b) The radar upgrades were done by the Air Team (the only part of the Japanese ground OOB done by the Air Team). Probably by TimTom. Cannot comment on this.

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac
(b) OK I think is an error as I did those

OK, is this an official "stamp" to introduce a fix in the next patch? [;)]

[inqistor]

Not that I know anything about excellent "paper" Japanese tanks, but looking at TAKIs site:
 
Type 4 simply exchanges new turret on old chassis. It seems actually possible, that conversion could be made in field (or quickly in factory, like T-34), so historical production numbers could not said whole truth.
 
I also discovered something weird with Soft Attack tank statistics. They seem to not be dependent of tanks real armament. Some examples:
777 Type 94 Tankette - Soft Attack 12, tank was armed with only 1 MG
778 Type 95 Light Tank - Soft Attack 13, but it was armed with 37mm gun, and 2 MGs, so obviously should have more than TWICE attack of Type 94
779 Type 98 Light Tank - Soft Attack 14, and it was armed with 37mm gun, and 1 MG. Obviously it should be better, than Type 94, but worse than Type 95.
 
Something really weird here...

[viberpol]

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen
(b) The radar upgrades were done by the Air Team (the only part of the Japanese ground OOB done by the Air Team). Probably by TimTom. Cannot comment on this.
(c) Type 2 Tank: Error (typo) carried over from stock WITP, anti-soft should probably be 14.
(d) 88mm AA Gun. Problem solved?

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac
(b) OK I think is an error as I did those
(c) Aye
(d) Aye

I confirm the beta fixed those 75 --> 88 mm AA guns. [&o]
How far we're from sound device --> radar fix? [:)]