Elite Units

[Q-Ball]

I had never done this before, but I selected from the Axis Unit list on T-17, and found 11 Elite Units.

You can't see on this, as they are RED, and JPEG doesn't like RED.

I am surprised which units are considered "ELITE". GD Regt isn't a shock, but some of the other units, like the Romanian Cav, and 1 Mountain Bde (but not the others) are also on the list.

The way I read it, all of these have a National Morale of +15. Is that correct? Even for the Italian Cav unit, for example?

[kirkgregerson]

If those minor units are elite why are their 'WitE morale' (god I really had that use of morale almost as much as I hate how WitE uses ROUTE) and exp so crappy? WitE really screws and insults some of these minor unit formations that were a lot more capable historically then they get credit for in this game. Have about a dozen other friends that agree on this as well.

[JAMiAM]

It's just a means of qualifying those particular units for morale benefits beyond their respective nations National Morale, and those due to unit type differentiation.

In other words, a way of further stratifying the units.

[kirkgregerson]

Either way it's kind of silly to give these units 'elite' status and set them up with 50 'WitE morale' and exp.
[:-]

Hope this was just an oversight and will be corrected in a future patch.

[JAMiAM]

Why?

[Great_Ajax]

I removed the Elite status from these units. It was an idea I had to give a morale boost for Axis minor formations who performed better than their line infantry counterparts such as armored, cavalry, and mountain units. The idea was refined into the rule that gave all Motorized, Cavalry, and Mountain units some kind of morale bonus over the national morale. Once the rule was made, the Axis Elite unit status was supposed to be removed and I missed a few.


It wasn't a silly idea. It was to give these select units the ability to attain a fifteen point bonus in morale over the line units.

Trey

[Great_Ajax]

If you and your friends have the specifics and references, then by all means share them. I am not against giving the Axis minor allies a boost, which is what I attempted to do with the Axis elite status, but I was in the minority on this subject within the team.

Trey

ORIGINAL: kirkgregerson

If those minor units are elite why are their 'WitE morale' (god I really had that use of morale almost as much as I hate how WitE uses ROUTE) and exp so crappy? WitE really screws and insults some of these minor unit formations that were a lot more capable historically then they get credit for in this game. Have about a dozen other friends that agree on this as well.

[gradenko2k]

Q-Ball, you might want to try using saving in PNG format instead of JPEG. Much better quality that way, even if you're just using Paint.

[Q-Ball]

ORIGINAL: el hefe

I removed the Elite status from these units. It was an idea I had to give a morale boost for Axis minor formations who performed better than their line infantry counterparts such as armored, cavalry, and mountain units. The idea was refined into the rule that gave all Motorized, Cavalry, and Mountain units some kind of morale bonus over the national morale. Once the rule was made, the Axis Elite unit status was supposed to be removed and I missed a few.


It wasn't a silly idea. It was to give these select units the ability to attain a fifteen point bonus in morale over the line units.

Trey

THAT's why it seemed a bit random; you must have missed a handful of the Axis Minor Allies.

I suspect that 22nd Airlanding, 78 Sturm, and GD Div should still retain ELITE status. Certainly, the GD Division should, but the other two were high-quality formations.

Maybe the Finnish Jaegers as well should be Elite, but doesn't matter that much; they disappear in 1941

[vinnie71]

ORIGINAL: el hefe

If you and your friends have the specifics and references, then by all means share them. I am not against giving the Axis minor allies a boost, which is what I attempted to do with the Axis elite status, but I was in the minority on this subject within the team.

Trey

ORIGINAL: kirkgregerson

If those minor units are elite why are their 'WitE morale' (god I really had that use of morale almost as much as I hate how WitE uses ROUTE) and exp so crappy? WitE really screws and insults some of these minor unit formations that were a lot more capable historically then they get credit for in this game. Have about a dozen other friends that agree on this as well.

Well I'll need to find the quote, but as far as I know the Rumanian Cavalry divisions were all considered as elite units in their army and the Germans considered them as the best units in the army as well. Seemingly (at least at first), they attracted the cream of conscripts and though on the light side in TO&E scales, performed with elan both in Barbarossa and Case Blue. I also believe that they even managed to stop the Russians cold on the first days of Uranus, with the latter having to commit armour to overrun them. Some were slated to turn into light armour units later on in the war.

Other unit(s) which should be given elite status are the Italian Alpini. They had high esprit de corps which they showed in the retreat from Stalingrad, with the Julia (which had gained fame in the Greek campaign) and I believe the Tridentina maintaining cohesion and punching through Soviet roadblocks to save the bulk of 8 Army by arriving at Nikolyev.

What surprises me is the fact that German elite units tend to wither over time, which is a byproduct of the system as is. Ex GD when it expands to division status becomes a normal (in the 70's) division and will not get better unless you clean up a large pocket with it. Maybe a little idea for future games is the inclusion of 'elite' replacements with higher morale for elite units. This would mimick real life where elite units such as GD or HG siphoned off the best conscripts (or the SS Pz and PzGr remaining effective despite the batterings they recieved because Himmler controlled the Replacement Army and sent the best men to high profile SS units).

[Cavalry Corp]

In my reading and experience including gaming Stalingrad etc - this statement is true my lords...

Rumanian "elite" units like Cav and the armour were better than any non guards Russians, yes they did briefly hold the Russians north of Stalingrad( in bunkers). I will qualify that and say Rumainian troops may have had better morale but their equipment is what really let them down , WW1 rifles almost no AT etc.
SS replacements were generally high quality and were for most units volunteers . This would apply to all the front line SS units. It would also apply to many volunteer foreign troops in less well known units some of which do not even appear on the OOB- like 16th SS PZG ( or am i wrong ).

GD is I am afraid to say it really was a one off and should never have morale less than 95 , if you read what it did it is difficult to model it in the game. I do not think it ever suffered a tactical defeat.

I cannot comment too much on the Italians but the Blue and one or two other units were probably better than moddled.
Cav

[JAS Gripen]

Btw. German Assault Artillery battalions(StuGs) really should be elite.

[abulbulian]

ORIGINAL: JAS Gripen

Btw. German Assault Artillery battalions(StuGs) really should be elite.

+1
Not sure everybody knows that the individuals pulled into these units where some of the best 'tank' soldiers. Michael Wittmann started out as a commander of a Stug III. [8D]

[abulbulian]

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM

Why?

I think Kirk believes that these units are not correctly being represented in WitE with the stats they are given on exp and morale. Why ask why? BTW, I happen to agree with him. But, compared to some of the other axis initial set-up values I have with WitE this is almost trivial.
[:(]

[wosung]

ORIGINAL: abulbulian

ORIGINAL: JAS Gripen

Btw. German Assault Artillery battalions(StuGs) really should be elite.

+1
Not sure everybody knows that the individuals pulled into these units where some of the best 'tank' soldiers. Michael Wittmann started out as a commander of a Stug III. [8D]

Care to cite a source about StuG Abt as elite tank soldiers outfit?

They weren't even part of the schnelle Truppen but until late war solely of the arty branch. And even in late war Inspektor der Panzertruppe, Guderian couldn't get admin competence for all StuG, because as the arty branch chief put it, the StuG was the only weapon for arty men to earn the knight's cross.
Source: Karl Walde, Guderian, p. 187.
Edit: http://www.feldgrau.com/artillery.html

Wittmann was not the only one StuG commander. So what does this proof for all StuG. Bns? Wittmann btw started in infantry (I.R. 19).
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Wittmann

I didn't say, StuG Abt. weren't good. But were they tank elite? Besides, German tank doctrine saw StuG as inferior to tanks, less flexible due to missing turret. In the PD Panzer companies StuG were stop gaps, because they were cheaper to produce, and tactically not very easy to integrate with real tanks companies.
Source: Jentz, Die deutsche Panzertruppe, Vol. 2.

[wosung]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

ORIGINAL: el hefe

I removed the Elite status from these units. It was an idea I had to give a morale boost for Axis minor formations who performed better than their line infantry counterparts such as armored, cavalry, and mountain units. The idea was refined into the rule that gave all Motorized, Cavalry, and Mountain units some kind of morale bonus over the national morale. Once the rule was made, the Axis Elite unit status was supposed to be removed and I missed a few.


It wasn't a silly idea. It was to give these select units the ability to attain a fifteen point bonus in morale over the line units.

Trey

THAT's why it seemed a bit random; you must have missed a handful of the Axis Minor Allies.

I suspect that 22nd Airlanding, 78 Sturm, and GD Div should still retain ELITE status. Certainly, the GD Division should, but the other two were high-quality formations.

Maybe the Finnish Jaegers as well should be Elite, but doesn't matter that much; they disappear in 1941

Care to elaborate why exactly 78. Sturmdivision should be an elite formation?

Sure, it had more firepower and, in summer 1943 a reinforced personnel strenght, which is reflected in its WitE TOE. But is that enough to make it Elite, exceptionally proficient?

Its predecessor, 78. I.D. was only of second wave, so none of the top notch first wave I.D. In spring 1942 it wasn't even capable of fullfilling every mission. Twice the 78. was nearly totally annihilated (in Dec. 1942 and Summer 1944).

All in all the 78. could deliver more lead than the usual I.D., but nothing more. It was rather an experimental division, reflecting the Wehrmacht's mid-war need to husband and focus its limited manpower and to substitute men by weapons.

Sources:
Burkhart Mueller-Hillebrand, Das Heer, Vol. 2, p. 21.
Das Deutsche Reich und der Zweite WK, Vol. 6, p.791.
James Lucas, Handbuch der Wehrmacht, p. 33-34.
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/78._Infant ... hrmacht%29

[abulbulian]

[:-]

Sorry Wosung, but I think your very wrong if you don't think Stug units shouldn't be considered elite. Here's something you may or may not know. Quoting this, but I've heard the same facts from many other sources.

"The Sturmgeschütz III Ausf. G was the most common of the StuG's produced with over 1053 units in service and over 9000 units of various designs completed from 1942-1945.
Though Tigers and Panthers have earned more notoriety, assault guns (like the StuG) collectively destroyed more tanks than any other vehicle. The crews of Sturmgeschutz were considered the Elite and their kill record showed for it with over 20,000 enemy tank kills by 1944."

- Military Vehicle Technology Foundation


I'm not sure where you came up with this concept of them being inferior??

"German tank doctrine saw StuG as inferior to tanks, less flexible due to missing turret"

what is your source?

Also, did you know Manstein was one of the major factors to get stugs into mass production? He loved them.

[kirkgregerson]

Yeah, wosung I think your 'whack' to even throw some of that nonsense out there without any legit source.  I've read Mainstein's Lost Victories and he does praise the Stugs and their valiant crews.  It's a good read, suggest you look into it. 

Sure it was turret-less and not as powerful as some German tanks, but that doesn't equate with them not being elite units.  Considering how cheap they were to produce in respect to tigers and panthers, they gave you more bang for your buck!

[heliodorus04]

ORIGINAL: wosung

ORIGINAL: abulbulian

ORIGINAL: JAS Gripen

Btw. German Assault Artillery battalions(StuGs) really should be elite.

+1
Not sure everybody knows that the individuals pulled into these units where some of the best 'tank' soldiers. Michael Wittmann started out as a commander of a Stug III. [8D]

Care to cite a source about StuG Abt as elite tank soldiers outfit?

They weren't even part of the schnelle Truppen but until late war solely of the arty branch. And even in late war Inspektor der Panzertruppe, Guderian couldn't get admin competence for all StuG, because as the arty branch chief put it, the StuG was the only weapon for arty men to earn the knight's cross.
Source: Karl Walde, Guderian, p. 187.
Edit: http://www.feldgrau.com/artillery.html

Wittmann was not the only one StuG commander. So what does this proof for all StuG. Bns? Wittmann btw started in infantry (I.R. 19).
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Wittmann

I didn't say, StuG Abt. weren't good. But were they tank elite? Besides, German tank doctrine saw StuG as inferior to tanks, less flexible due to missing turret. In the PD Panzer companies StuG were stop gaps, because they were cheaper to produce, and tactically not very easy to integrate with real tanks companies.
Source: Jentz, Die deutsche Panzertruppe, Vol. 2.

This is why I hate historians.
Only out to make others look wrong.

[Schmart]

ORIGINAL: abulbulian
"The Sturmgeschütz III Ausf. G was the most common of the StuG's produced with over 1053 units in service and over 9000 units of various designs completed from 1942-1945.
Though Tigers and Panthers have earned more notoriety, assault guns (like the StuG) collectively destroyed more tanks than any other vehicle. The crews of Sturmgeschutz were considered the Elite and their kill record showed for it with over 20,000 enemy tank kills by 1944."

By that reasoning, AT guns should be SUPER elite, as they were far more numerous and were generally the primary killer of enemy tanks. Since Wittmann has been mentioned in this thread, IIRC he took more pleasure in destroying AT guns than tanks, as he hated them the most because they were such a tank killer.