The Power of Inexperience / GreyJoy(A)-Rader(J)

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Jodphur should be your target, not Multan. Let his forces at Multan rot.

And i cannot get to Jodpur with my land forces...the indian road system sees a bottleneck at Multan...no way to bypass it!

[GreyJoy]

I have the Paras...but again Rader is no fool. He has garrisoned every single base with a bde or a naval guard unit. I can take a single base nbehind Multan but the railroad is interrupted south of Multan by the presence of his units and without a decent air cover i won't be able to hold a single base agaist his legions that are waiting at Dehli...Paras can be used, yes, but only when/if he will be in retreat mode from Multan...now it will be a waste of good units

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Jodphur should be your target, not Multan. Let his forces at Multan rot.

And i cannot get to Jodpur with my land forces...the indian road system sees a bottleneck at Multan...no way to bypass it!

There is a trail. And once you isolate and take the base the rail line allows for great supply flow. Level 9 forts, but no river crossing. And IIRC 2x terrain not 3x. If you manage to cut off supplies to the place that will force him to respond on land. You could develop a plan.

Anyway, think about how you can do what he doesn't want you to do. If you think you can't there by land, maybe he thinks that too. With RR he can respond when he sees you coming, but it will cause him to redeploy. 40 AA units? Be nice to stomp on them!

[GreyJoy]

200 more fighters and 150 bombers just arrived at Suva from WC. These units are all composed of crack pilots and now, once requipped with modern planes will be moved to the front in the Solomons in order to substitute the Marine units that are holding the line at TLT. Wanna use the crack Marine fighters on my 9 CVE in order to have a 250 fighter CAP over my amphib TFs.

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Jodphur should be your target, not Multan. Let his forces at Multan rot.

And i cannot get to Jodpur with my land forces...the indian road system sees a bottleneck at Multan...no way to bypass it!

There is a trail. And once you isolate and take the base the rail line allows for great supply flow. Level 9 forts, but no river crossing. And IIRC 2x terrain not 3x. If you manage to cut off supplies to the place that will force him to respond on land. You could develop a plan.

Anyway, think about how you can do what he doesn't want you to do. If you think you can't there by land, maybe he thinks that too. With RR he can respond when he sees you coming, but it will cause him to redeploy. 40 AA units? Be nice to stomp on them!

That trail is the "trail of death". Believe me. I've tried it when i had India in my hands. It passes through a desert and the movement rate is so awfull and the supply flow so terrible that i will have an entire army stuck there.
I've also tried some months ago in a test scenario...no way to make an army move there...it's not the trail thing...it's the combo trail+desert that makes those hexes unaffordable...

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy



And i cannot get to Jodpur with my land forces...the indian road system sees a bottleneck at Multan...no way to bypass it!

There is a trail. And once you isolate and take the base the rail line allows for great supply flow. Level 9 forts, but no river crossing. And IIRC 2x terrain not 3x. If you manage to cut off supplies to the place that will force him to respond on land. You could develop a plan.

Anyway, think about how you can do what he doesn't want you to do. If you think you can't there by land, maybe he thinks that too. With RR he can respond when he sees you coming, but it will cause him to redeploy. 40 AA units? Be nice to stomp on them!

That trail is the "trail of death". Believe me. I've tried it when i had India in my hands. It passes through a desert and the movement rate is so awfull and the supply flow so terrible that i will have an entire army stuck there.
I've also tried some months ago in a test scenario...no way to make an army move there...it's not the trail thing...it's the combo trail+desert that makes those hexes unaffordable...

I just checked the terrain chart and I was wrong on the defense bonus: Desert is 1x not 2x (Desert+Rough is 2x).

Anyway I was looking at movement cost and supply movement cost. They are the same for a trail no matter what terrain the trail is passing through.

But if that route doesn't work for you it doesn't work. [:)]

I'm anxious for you to start kicking some butt no matter which way you go! [8D]

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

ORIGINAL: witpqs



There is a trail. And once you isolate and take the base the rail line allows for great supply flow. Level 9 forts, but no river crossing. And IIRC 2x terrain not 3x. If you manage to cut off supplies to the place that will force him to respond on land. You could develop a plan.

Anyway, think about how you can do what he doesn't want you to do. If you think you can't there by land, maybe he thinks that too. With RR he can respond when he sees you coming, but it will cause him to redeploy. 40 AA units? Be nice to stomp on them!

That trail is the "trail of death". Believe me. I've tried it when i had India in my hands. It passes through a desert and the movement rate is so awfull and the supply flow so terrible that i will have an entire army stuck there.
I've also tried some months ago in a test scenario...no way to make an army move there...it's not the trail thing...it's the combo trail+desert that makes those hexes unaffordable...

I just checked the terrain chart and I was wrong on the defense bonus: Desert is 1x not 2x (Desert+Rough is 2x).

Anyway I was looking at movement cost and supply movement cost. They are the same for a trail no matter what terrain the trail is passing through.

But if that route doesn't work for you it doesn't work. [:)]

I'm anxious for you to start kicking some butt no matter which way you go! [8D]

i'm anxious too mate! believe me I AM!!!! it's been almost one year of RL that i've been having my ass kicked all over around the map and i'm willing to start giving back some of those kicks...but i have to be patient and wise...
That route is a no-no. I'm pretty sure of that. The fact that he hasn't taken it to march from Jodpur to Hyderabad when he had overwhelming forces it's another evidence...but again he has 71 units at Jodpur. I guess at least 1000 AVs, with forts and 40 arty units...enough to stop me and bomb me to oblivion. If i stand a chance is on the open and clear terrain, where my tanks can make the difference.
But let's keep in mind what's the first pourpose of all this indian campaign: keep him heavily committed in India so his units cannot be replaced in other places

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

i'm anxious too mate! believe me I AM!!!! it's been almost one year of RL that i've been having my ass kicked all over around the map and i'm willing to start giving back some of those kicks...but i have to be patient and wise...
That route is a no-no. I'm pretty sure of that. The fact that he hasn't taken it to march from Jodpur to Hyderabad when he had overwhelming forces it's another evidence...but again he has 71 units at Jodpur. I guess at least 1000 AVs, with forts and 40 arty units...enough to stop me and bomb me to oblivion. If i stand a chance is on the open and clear terrain, where my tanks can make the difference.
But let's keep in mind what's the first pourpose of all this indian campaign: keep him heavily committed in India so his units cannot be replaced in other places

Actually, the fact that he didn't march from Jogphur is not really evidence of his opinion on that. I thought he was waiting for your forces to make it to Multan and become engaged in the fight, then send massive forces up from Jodphur and cut off your forces at Multan from supply. Your forces at Multan would have been slowed down by aerial attacks on their way back if he committed to that.

As I recall you turned your guys around before they got there, and besides I don't know if that was his plan. But it would have been my plan! [:D]

[USSAmerica]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy



And i cannot get to Jodpur with my land forces...the indian road system sees a bottleneck at Multan...no way to bypass it!

There is a trail. And once you isolate and take the base the rail line allows for great supply flow. Level 9 forts, but no river crossing. And IIRC 2x terrain not 3x. If you manage to cut off supplies to the place that will force him to respond on land. You could develop a plan.

Anyway, think about how you can do what he doesn't want you to do. If you think you can't there by land, maybe he thinks that too. With RR he can respond when he sees you coming, but it will cause him to redeploy. 40 AA units? Be nice to stomp on them!

That trail is the "trail of death". Believe me. I've tried it when i had India in my hands. It passes through a desert and the movement rate is so awfull and the supply flow so terrible that i will have an entire army stuck there.
I've also tried some months ago in a test scenario...no way to make an army move there...it's not the trail thing...it's the combo trail+desert that makes those hexes unaffordable...

Hmmm.... sounds suspiciously similar to the Allied opinion of the Ardennes.... [;)]

It would be especially interesting to consider if Rader also thinks of it this way. [:)]

[Dan Nichols]

how about the route in yellow?

[kfsgo]

e: hey, you beat me to it!

Hi. Look at this hex here:



Yeah, yeah, there's a big bay running across it. But: it is still a land hex!

Here's our two participants after one day in move mode:



It's not perfect; no strat-move available, long exposure to aircraft, and you're theoretically at risk from naval bombardments, but it's what, two weeks from HYD to Ahmedabad for armour? Less, if they can do it in move mode all the way. No river crossings till you're halfway to Bombay and, hell, it's probably a quicker way to Jodhpur even if you wheel the whole way around. One hex of open terrain won't kill your supply flow...HYD-JOD is about 45 days max (combat mode all the way) for infantry on the trail; what happens if you get your infantry moving across the desert, then a month (!) later release the armour and have them arrive - behind the lines - at the same time? Think about it, if nothing else...

[JeffroK]

That flank has the best options, rather than the maze of rivers around Multan, a push around his left flank might get him worried.

But it takes a lot of units to do it.

1.  A block on the Multan road, has to be strong enough to hold back the hordes.
2.  A block on the Jodpur road, again enough to hold him but he will have the desert at his back and for his LOC plus will be away from his AAA hub.
3.  A medium/small force on the trail to the left, it ends at the open country hex, could be a good place to threaten a move on 4.
4.  A very mobile force to hit around toward  Ahmedabad, and maybe the small base on the coast.

It may get rader jumping, weakening his Multan force to plug holes, or weaken Jodhpur allowing you through that axis.

The thing is IMHO, Multan is to strong a position to approach directly so you have to think up some alternatives, none will be perfect but no plan ever is.

Late thought, do you have any amphib power at Karachi, could it land a force to help take this small base ??

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: kfsgo

e: hey, you beat me to it!

Hi. Look at this hex here:



Yeah, yeah, there's a big bay running across it. But: it is still a land hex!

Here's our two participants after one day in move mode:



It's not perfect; no strat-move available, long exposure to aircraft, and you're theoretically at risk from naval bombardments, but it's what, two weeks from HYD to Ahmedabad for armour? Less, if they can do it in move mode all the way. No river crossings till you're halfway to Bombay and, hell, it's probably a quicker way to Jodhpur even if you wheel the whole way around. One hex of open terrain won't kill your supply flow...HYD-JOD is about 45 days max (combat mode all the way) for infantry on the trail; what happens if you get your infantry moving across the desert, then a month (!) later release the armour and have them arrive - behind the lines - at the same time? Think about it, if nothing else...

Dan, Kfsgo, Jeff,

i'm thinking a lot about that. And i swear i thought about it for a long time.
My concern is that a move down there won't achieve nothing. He can strat move all along India. He has probably more AVs than me and more troops than me. Even if i manage to get to Ahmenabad with a large force (and i'd have to bring with me all the AAs in order to be safe from his bombers), there i'll find myself in a plain terrain, with roads everywhere and without any decent aircover. That means that i won't be able to cover properly my flanks because i won't be able to create any independent column. Last, but not least, he already has those cities on the Coast very well garrisoned and fortified. Surat has a Guards Regiment and a regular regiment, plus 2 AA, 2 base forces and 1 artillery unit. Ademabad is a light urban and has a tank regiment and a brigade...and so on...forts are up everywhere if i have to notice of what indirectly tell me the bombardment missions i've done so far with my 4Es...
And consider that, as you said, in order to move there i'll have to leave a strong blocking force on the road towards Multan and one at Hyderabad...with decent AA...so clearly my advancing eastern army that will go there will be heavily depleted, both in terms of AVs and in terms of AA...
Then, what will i achieve? Do you really think that Rader, strong of more than 12k AVs in India, and counting of a perfect railroad system that amplifies the interior lines benefits, will get scared to see my "turtle" Army that advances 6/8 miles per day down that road? I don't think so. He will move his tanks and some 5/6 divisions there. And with the rest of his army he will march all the way from Multan to Hyderabad...

A landing at Surat or down the coast is out of question untill i can count on all my CVs in cover. He has so many level 9 AFs in India that he will easily destroy everything i send there simply putting 200 Netties on naval attack. Plus every point on the coast can be garrisoned in a click using the strat moving system...

It's a mess...Rader may not have won the battle for India but he managed to put me in a corner...a deep and dark corner.

The only good news is that to keep this status quo he must mantain a HUGE garrison of active forces in India, in order to keep me at bay...and those forces cannot be moved to anywhere else untill the threat of a re-conquest of mine is a possible outcome...

[GreyJoy]

Sep 28, 29 1943

Another heavy bombardment run against Auki made by my BBs before retiring to Ndeni. A DD division bombed the base north of Munda, damaging a lot of a/c...again not a decisive move but we're limtiing a lot the area inside which Rader can feel safe...
A part from that, a Huge force is landing at Suva. something like 350 ships of various types reached my HUB today. Now i have the whole pacific fleet reunited and a strenght of 10 divisions ready to smash the Solomons. I'll need 2/3 more turns to organize this force and then we'll move to Ndeni, where we'll form the great armada that will take Thousands. In the meanwhile we'll keep the pressure up with the bombing runs against his forward bases...


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Naval bombardment of Auki at 115,136

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
E13A1 Jake: 66 damaged
E13A1 Jake: 1 destroyed on ground

Allied Ships
BB Indiana
BB Washington
CA Australia
CA Quincy
CL Santa Fe
CL Cleveland
CL Richmond
DD Meredith
DD Saufley
DD Bache
DD Aulick
DD Abbot

Japanese ground losses:
547 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 36 destroyed, 30 disabled
Engineers: 10 destroyed, 20 disabled
Guns lost 4 (2 destroyed, 2 disabled)



Airbase hits 43
Airbase supply hits 11
Runway hits 122
Port hits 37
Port supply hits 3

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Naval bombardment of Panggoe at 111,133

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-43-IIb Oscar: 15 damaged
Ki-46-II Dinah: 4 damaged
N1K1-J George: 3 damaged
N1K1-J George: 1 destroyed on ground
Ki-44-IIa Tojo: 10 damaged
H8K1 Emily: 2 damaged

Allied Ships
DD Hammann
DD Eaton
DD Beale
DD Fletcher

Japanese ground losses:
3 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled



Airbase hits 8
Airbase supply hits 5
Runway hits 34
Port hits 2
Port supply hits 5



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Naval bombardment of Auki at 115,136

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
E13A1 Jake: 20 damaged

Allied Ships
BB North Carolina
CA Wichita
CL Montpelier
CL Columbia
CL Raleigh
DD Taylor
DD Strong
DD Renshaw
DD Radford
DD Nicholas
DD LaVallette
DD DeHaven

Japanese ground losses:
150 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 6 destroyed, 11 disabled
Engineers: 3 destroyed, 6 disabled
Guns lost 6 (1 destroyed, 5 disabled)



Airbase hits 15
Airbase supply hits 5
Runway hits 57
Port hits 16
Port supply hits 2

[GreyJoy]

His naval activity in the Solomons has really decreased in the last weeks. He has suffered huge losses in terms of PBs and APDs due to my DDs or my PTs that interdict everything that comes resupplying Thousands, Russell or Auki. During the last month we extended the range of our raiding operation till Munda and Rekata Bay and now to Panggoe. Slowly we're grinding him down here. It's a long journey but i'm happy about what we are achieving. If the next operation against Thousands will go as we hope, we will force him to committ again his main surface assets in another air and naval meatgrinder. The advance will be slow but steady. We now have gathered into this theatre a tremendous striking force and it's time for the allies to start killing some japs in and gain the initiative...then we'll have to hold tight this initiative for the rest of the war.

[ny59giants]

Have you started moving engineers and other support elements up from Cairns to Cooktown and then steadily up to Portland Roads?? You should be able to develop each base on the way and give him some concern and force him to place more assets there.

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Have you started moving engineers and other support elements up from Cairns to Cooktown and then steadily up to Portland Roads?? You should be able to develop each base on the way and give him some concern and force him to place more assets there.

No, i've built up CookTown and Cairns but nothing more for the moment. I have sent all my spare eng to Perth and from there to Exmouth and the other bases on the NW of Oz in order to build as fast as possible a strong chain of developed bases. The other eng i have are based at Ndeni, ready to be shipped to Thousands as soon as we conquer it in order to maximise the AF and Port and build some forts.

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy



Then in India my LRCAP performed poorly. I had 50 P-47s and 36 Corsairs on 50%LRCAPPING my Eastern Army...just 15 planes showed up and got obviously overwhelmed...we destroyed 16 planes in A2A against 6 planes of mine (2 KIA,2 WIA)...not bad but i hoped to get more planes in the air...but on LRCAP at 6 hexes of distance is difficult to achieve a decent number...

Greyjoy,

Did you use drop tanks? I find that they will help put more CAP up even if the range is still within normal.

[GreyJoy]

did, the P-47s were all using droptanks. I think the fact is that only 50% of each squadron was set to LRCAP, so considering the disance (6 hexes) and the fact that i had 50 planes devoted to it the fact that 15 planes showed up during enemy attack is a fairly realistic outcome to have 15 P-47s over the target by the time the enemy units arrived...

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

ORIGINAL: kfsgo

e: hey, you beat me to it!

Hi. Look at this hex here:



Yeah, yeah, there's a big bay running across it. But: it is still a land hex!

Here's our two participants after one day in move mode:



It's not perfect; no strat-move available, long exposure to aircraft, and you're theoretically at risk from naval bombardments, but it's what, two weeks from HYD to Ahmedabad for armour? Less, if they can do it in move mode all the way. No river crossings till you're halfway to Bombay and, hell, it's probably a quicker way to Jodhpur even if you wheel the whole way around. One hex of open terrain won't kill your supply flow...HYD-JOD is about 45 days max (combat mode all the way) for infantry on the trail; what happens if you get your infantry moving across the desert, then a month (!) later release the armour and have them arrive - behind the lines - at the same time? Think about it, if nothing else...

Dan, Kfsgo, Jeff,

i'm thinking a lot about that. And i swear i thought about it for a long time.
My concern is that a move down there won't achieve nothing. He can strat move all along India. He has probably more AVs than me and more troops than me. Even if i manage to get to Ahmenabad with a large force (and i'd have to bring with me all the AAs in order to be safe from his bombers), there i'll find myself in a plain terrain, with roads everywhere and without any decent aircover. That means that i won't be able to cover properly my flanks because i won't be able to create any independent column. Last, but not least, he already has those cities on the Coast very well garrisoned and fortified. Surat has a Guards Regiment and a regular regiment, plus 2 AA, 2 base forces and 1 artillery unit. Ademabad is a light urban and has a tank regiment and a brigade...and so on...forts are up everywhere if i have to notice of what indirectly tell me the bombardment missions i've done so far with my 4Es...
And consider that, as you said, in order to move there i'll have to leave a strong blocking force on the road towards Multan and one at Hyderabad...with decent AA...so clearly my advancing eastern army that will go there will be heavily depleted, both in terms of AVs and in terms of AA...
Then, what will i achieve? Do you really think that Rader, strong of more than 12k AVs in India, and counting of a perfect railroad system that amplifies the interior lines benefits, will get scared to see my "turtle" Army that advances 6/8 miles per day down that road? I don't think so. He will move his tanks and some 5/6 divisions there. And with the rest of his army he will march all the way from Multan to Hyderabad...

A landing at Surat or down the coast is out of question untill i can count on all my CVs in cover. He has so many level 9 AFs in India that he will easily destroy everything i send there simply putting 200 Netties on naval attack. Plus every point on the coast can be garrisoned in a click using the strat moving system...

It's a mess...Rader may not have won the battle for India but he managed to put me in a corner...a deep and dark corner.

The only good news is that to keep this status quo he must mantain a HUGE garrison of active forces in India, in order to keep me at bay...and those forces cannot be moved to anywhere else untill the threat of a re-conquest of mine is a possible outcome...

Yep, you will not really be able to drive him out of India until you have enough shipping and exterior bases to support an amphibious landing. Once you can do that he will probably just evacuate. I don't see him going anywhere unit mid 1944 at best. You have to give him credit. He failed to take Karachi but otherwise his Indian campaign was pretty damn brilliant and even holding Karachi, you are effectively "corked" until you regain the air. Meanwhile he takes advantage of India's industry until you can force him out. Rader has shown us the advantage of taking China and India early. I don't know if he could duplicate vs you as you probably would do a much better job holding China now that you have gained some combat experience.