1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids)

[Tarhunnas]

And the armaments problem shows no sign of relief.

[Tarhunnas]

Turn 134. January 6 1944. Blizzard.

The German army is falling apart. Infantry strength is really low. This is a familiar sight by now... The central front.

Hmm, messed that up with the pictures. It should have been a picture with like 15-20 units all with CV 1... you get the idea... This is an overview of the southern front.

[Tarhunnas]

Rifle squads.

[Q-Ball]

At least you are WAY in front of historical lines

Maybe it's time to think of a summer defense line WAY back.....the Dnepr, perhaps?

At this point, you might retreat a couple hexes a turn until MUD, halt, then retreat again.

[Flaviusx]

What's killing you here is the armament shortage. The manpower is there. Close to a half million men in the pools, which is no joke. That would fix your infantry up.

We did nail that armaments bug, but even after that I'm not completely convinced the numbers are right in the late period of the war.

That being said, there's been so many changes to the game since you started this one that it's hard to get a read on things. A fresh start would give better results.

In the meantime, start falling back. You have a ton of space to play with here. You could seriously pull back all the way to Dnepr like Q-ball says and still be incredibly ahead of the game. He'd have a hard time punching past that until the 44-5 winter.

[Peltonx]

Wow yes start building forts on the river, pull back after the ice is out 2 or 3 hexes a turn.

This could really help your manpower shortage. There should be a lack of fighting at that point, because it be hard a hell for him to get over that river.

You turn art ect units down to 50%? I set infantry at 80%

Yes the arm bug really hit you hard. In my games I am gaining about 10k per turn from turns 1-17 then close to 20k during mud. The game I started right after bug was fixed on turn 14 I have 150,000 arm in pool.

With light fighting ect from late 42 to late 43 you would have been able to stock pile a bunch and be using them now as needed.

You should still be fine with them rivers behind you still.

Pelton

[Peltonx]

If you man power gets below 2.3 million your in trouble.

You have allot of tanks I start using them and giving the infantry a brake.

In my game vs Hoooper 2.3 million was the braking point. You need to shorten the front and start putting mech units in line, keep pz units in reserve.

[Ketza]

Static mode is your new friend as Axis.

[BletchleyGeek]

ORIGINAL: Ketza
Static mode is your new friend as Axis.

That can be quite dangerous when/if the Soviets manage to breakthrough and flank the static units. Being able to move just one hex to the west might well be not enough to restore the balance of your line. It also weakens somewhat the defense, since the vehicle shortage modifier would apply, although that won't be much for Infantry formations.

[Peltonx]

I hate to say it, but Tarhunnas will probably lose this game.

After looking at loses per turn, IF Gids keeps the pressure on the German army it will break in 4 to 6 turns at which point most of the German army becomes usless.

Gids will easly beable to advance 4 to 6 hexes per turn on average. The Red army will not be advancing faster then railheads so it can easly keep pushing 4 hex average. So with 120ish turns left Gids can easly be in Berlin long before the game ends, I dont thk hes more then 100 hexes from Berlin.

So even at 2 hexs a turn he can easly win.

This is another example of how far off the game is and not even close to historical at all.

German armerment production is about 50% lower then historical by my guess.

There should be a manpower shortage not an armerment shortage.

Again the game still is babysitting the Russian side way way to much.

Even with Tarhunnas pushing way past historical(12 mil in russian loses) and taking out far more then historical production he is probably going to lose the game or at best get a draw.

Is there some reason why as a German player we should bother invading Russia? There is zero reward for killing 12 mill reds, bagging more then historical production, bagging Leningrad, Moscow-Rostov and pushing way past historical.

The VP conditions are a total joke.
The russian rail system is a joke, way over rated.
The russian prodution system is a joke, manpower way way way over rated.
The german prodtuction system is a joke, the armerment prodution way under rated.

There is no way in hell that Russian moral would do anything other then tank with the losses of Moscow and Leningrad.

At some point the general babysitting of the Russian side needs to come to an end.

Pelton

[Peltonx]

The Russian side does not get punnished for losing citys, losing men, losing production or losing land by just running east during the summers of 41 and 42.

The German side gets no rewards for taking Leningrad,Moscow to Rostov and then some, bagging far more then historical in production and killing more then historical in men and equipment.

Again in Tarhunnas words whats the pt of the Germans invading Russian?

Pelton

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: Pelton
There is no way in hell that Russian moral would do anything other then tank with the losses of Moscow and Leningrad.

Really? And you would know this...how? While I agree that there should be greater consequences of the fall of Lgrad and Moscow, including the possiblity of lower morale, it should only be a possibility, not a certainty.

Russians are a contrary bunch. I once heard a joke which kind of illustrates the point, I will try to summarize here:

A Briton, a Frenchman, and a Russian were captured by cannibals, placed in pots, and fires lit beneath the pots. The cannibal chief told them that they would be boiled and eaten, with their skins made into a canoe for the chief. The chief asked them if they had any last requests...

The Briton asked for poison, proclaimed "Long Live the Queen!", and drank the poison...

The Frenchman asked for a knife, proclaimed "Vive l'France", and slit his throat...

The Russian asked for a fork. Somewhat surprised by the request, the chief gave the Russian a fork. With the words "To hell with your fucking canoe!" he began jabbing himself with the fork over and over again...

[Ketza]

ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek

ORIGINAL: Ketza
Static mode is your new friend as Axis.

That can be quite dangerous when/if the Soviets manage to breakthrough and flank the static units. Being able to move just one hex to the west might well be not enough to restore the balance of your line. It also weakens somewhat the defense, since the vehicle shortage modifier would apply, although that won't be much for Infantry formations.

If you keep an admin pool this wont be an issue. It is far more important to cut your attrition losses across the board in every unit every turn where the front is not active. In my opinion.

[Flaviusx]

Pelton, give Tarhunnas his armament points and he'd be in good shape here. This is really the basic problem. He also, quite frankly, way overextended himself in 1943 and allowed himself to fight a totaly unnecessary offensive that burned out the Wehrmacht. Knowing when to stop is half the game. (And knowing when to fall back is the other. There's really no need to be holding on to such an advanced line at this stage. He just has to run out the clock and wind up somewhere east of the prewar border.)

Look at Ketza's game against 76mm for proper defensive tactics.

In a fresh game, the armament problem is possibly gone. (I say possibly, because I'm still not sure if the numbers are right even with the bug taken out.) It's too late to repair the error so far as this game goes, alas.

[Aurelian]

ORIGINAL: 76mm

ORIGINAL: Pelton
There is no way in hell that Russian moral would do anything other then tank with the losses of Moscow and Leningrad.

Really? And you would know this...how? While I agree that there should be greater consequences of the fall of Lgrad and Moscow, including the possiblity of lower morale, it should only be a possibility, not a certainty.

Russians are a contrary bunch.

I would really like to know myself what is the basis for that as well.

One could just as well state that the loss of both would make the Russians rise up in an all consuming ferocity that conquers all.

[Peltonx]

I am with you on the armerment issue. I still think it kinda stinks of something wrong.

As far as him just hanging on, its not that easy once the German army is broke and its almost broke I know from exp its over.

The Red army can advance faster then the German infantry can possibly retreat.

There just is no punishment for the Russian players losing 12 million men, more then historical in production and far far more then historical in citys and land.

Look at the huge losses of production, manpower centers and land and still Tarhunnas army is about to crack and fold up.

Gids can easly gain 4 to 6 hexs a turn all along the front soon and there be nothing Tarhunnas can do able it.

Pelton

[Peltonx]

Yes sure Katza is doing good vs 76mm, but Tarhunnas has done far far more then Katza did. Katza is probably the best all around German player, but still if 76mm would start attacking all along the front he can break Katza in 20 turns.


There game is 20 turns behind this one it appears. If 76mm would be more offensive minded he could have started grinding Katza down.

The key for the Russians is attacking all along the line north to south as per historical. The Red losses can easly be made up for. No pockets until the German army is broken.

76mm has more then enough time to crack Katza if he start attacking all along the front.

76mm is good defending and not so hot attacking. Gids has lost 12 mil and is about to crack Tarhunnas. 76mm can do same he chooses not to. He has more then enough manpower/armerment pts to crack Katza withen 20 turns. The German army cant take 100,000+ deaths a turn for 20 turns. We seen it more then once.

Pelton

[Ketza]

I am in no way close to being one of the best Axis players. I just post a lot [:D]

[Q-Ball]

I don't think we can learn anything from this game in terms of whether the model works, is broken, etc. I think we need newer games to get to 1944 before making any kind of judgements. Just too many changes with big effects.

Independent of that, no matter how this turns out, in my opinion Tarhunnas is the winner. He won this game in 41-42 hands-down no contest, and even if 1943 was a "minor defeat" he wins.

It's hard to declare winners like that all the time, but it's clear to me in this one.

[Klydon]

Yes, very tough to judge anything by this one since there have been so many changes to the game since they started in April.

I also agree that Tarhunnas should be the winner on this one and Gids deserves major props for hanging in past the point that a lot of guys would have quit.

I also think this AAR helped the design team with some game issues as it went along and was very useful in helping with later versions of the game.