Empire of the Rising Lemon? SqzMyLemon (Japan) v Smeulders (Allies)

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

I like the Nick's though, if they can get at bombers unmolested they have been successful. Many take damage from the defensive fire, but being armoured they seem to press on regardless. With good pilots I find them effective when given the opportunity.

With the possible exception of the Nate and Claude, these are my least favorite IJ airframe. They're simply meat on the table for any Allied fighter escort. All I can do with mine is get good pilots killed at a poor exchange ratio...[:(]

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

I like the Nick's though, if they can get at bombers unmolested they have been successful. Many take damage from the defensive fire, but being armoured they seem to press on regardless. With good pilots I find them effective when given the opportunity.

With the possible exception of the Nate and Claude, these are my least favorite IJ airframe. They're simply meat on the table for any Allied fighter escort. All I can do with mine is get good pilots killed at a poor exchange ratio...[:(]

Ditto.

Not sure they are not lower than Nates .... at least those have high enough MAN to avoid getting hit sometimes ... Nicks just rack up exp for the allies ... [:@]

[SqzMyLemon]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

My point is, pretty soon the allied player will start to think the same of the IJ player ... "where is he?" [;)] And if you ever lose that ... well game over, right?

At one point Pax I was so frustrated, that I contemplated pulling a Japanese Sir Robin-san. I was simply going to melt away and stack everything in the Home Islands, just to make a point. Let the Allies experience taking empty base after empty base and see how fun it is. I didn't of course, but I was sure tempted.

The fur will be flying soon though. I just hope my tactics will be sound and I get some lucky rolls to bloody the Allies here. I just wish for one battle where I can decisively defeat whatever Allied force I may encounter. I think this will be the best way to slow the Allies down. If I cause enough losses then they'll bring the kitchen sink to every fight. I may not be able to touch them again after that, but that also takes a lot of time and logistics to put together. I'll poke the bear here around Tabiteuea and area and see how it reacts. Then I just look for opportunities to mess up the Allies' as much as possible. Even scratching their paint jobs might buy me more time, since sinking an AM causes enough distress as it is.

[SqzMyLemon]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

I like the Nick's though, if they can get at bombers unmolested they have been successful. Many take damage from the defensive fire, but being armoured they seem to press on regardless. With good pilots I find them effective when given the opportunity.

With the possible exception of the Nate and Claude, these are my least favorite IJ airframe. They're simply meat on the table for any Allied fighter escort. All I can do with mine is get good pilots killed at a poor exchange ratio...[:(]

That's true. So far no escorts though in my case. The Nick's, if unmolested, are shooting some down for little loss. Really, the major reason I like them, is they look cool! [8D]

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

My point is, pretty soon the allied player will start to think the same of the IJ player ... "where is he?" [;)] And if you ever lose that ... well game over, right?

At one point Pax I was so frustrated, that I contemplated pulling a Japanese Sir Robin-san. I was simply going to melt away and stack everything in the Home Islands, just to make a point. Let the Allies experience taking empty base after empty base and see how fun it is. I didn't of course, but I was sure tempted.

I know. I could tell from your postings here. Hang in there. It's going to heat up soon enough for you! [;)]

[SqzMyLemon]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

My point is, pretty soon the allied player will start to think the same of the IJ player ... "where is he?" [;)] And if you ever lose that ... well game over, right?

At one point Pax I was so frustrated, that I contemplated pulling a Japanese Sir Robin-san. I was simply going to melt away and stack everything in the Home Islands, just to make a point. Let the Allies experience taking empty base after empty base and see how fun it is. I didn't of course, but I was sure tempted.

I know. I could tell from your postings here. Hang in there. It's going to heat up soon enough for you! [;)]

Of course I'll hang in there, I've waited this long! [:D]

[SqzMyLemon]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

The AAA units are cheap to buy, incidentally. I'd recommend considering buying some for these sorts of reasons.

I'm starting to address this issue and moving AA units to where I believe there will be high volumes of enemy aircraft operating very shortly. They are really cheap in the grand scheme of things.

[SuluSea]

Hi Sqz, [:)] not certain IIRC did you wreak havoc on his carrier forces or was that another game you were involved in?

Have you started training kamaikazes yet and if so how many groups would you recommend at this stage?

Thanks!!

[ny59giants]

Don't overlook the need to upgrade some of your AA Rgt and large BFs radar. I have most of mine upgraded to type 7 radar sets which has greater range.

[SqzMyLemon]

ORIGINAL: SuluSea

Hi Sqz, [:)] not certain IIRC did you wreak havoc on his carrier forces or was that another game you were involved in?

Have you started training kamaikazes yet and if so how many groups would you recommend at this stage?

Thanks!!

Hi SuluSea,

Great to see you following along. Sadly, I've not had the pleasure of wreaking havoc on the allied carriers in this matchup. I've seen them all of twice during the first year of the war. Initially by Glen off the U.S. West Coast near San Diego in the first month of the war, and most recently during the invasion of Tabiteuea. I am down a CV though, the Hiryu was torpedoed and lost during the invasion of Java.

I've recently switched over all my behind the front bomber units to low naval training. Most were set to ASW and naval search before that. Other than recon training, I think it is counter productive to train at airfield or other ground type missions as they just don't have the bombload to have much effect. I can give you an idea of how many Sentai's currently are low naval training at this stage when I can access the game later. I find PDU off very tough to figure out my future needs and what will be available to use for what. I'm too lazy to look at tracker to be honest and figure it out. In the spirit of poor military planning by Japan in general, I won't any time soon. [:D]

Thanks for posting!

[SqzMyLemon]

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Don't overlook the need to upgrade some of your AA Rgt and large BFs radar. I have most of mine upgraded to type 7 radar sets which has greater range.

Don't these upgrade over time automatically? Can we manually upgrade their devices?

[SuluSea]

Okay Sqz thanks, I have your AAR mistaken for CapnGowns, sorry- in that case with his CVs intact there is no reason why your opponent shouldn't be looking for action in December of '42 .

[SqzMyLemon]

ORIGINAL: SuluSea

Okay Sqz thanks, I have your AAR mistaken for CapnGowns, sorry- in that case with his CVs intact there is no reason why your opponent shouldn't be looking for action in December of '42 .

Sigh, mistaken for a more successful JFB.

[ny59giants]

If you are using a Beta patch that is relatively recent, within your large BFs and AA Rgt you should see a "=" that indicates you can upgrade to a newer device. As long as supplies are good, just turn on Replacements.

[SqzMyLemon]

I'd like opinions on a tactical matter before I send off the next turn. Does anybody think launching a deliberate attack in rough/wooded terrain by the following Japanese forces against the Chinese would be a waste of time and troops? I suffered 29k casualties crossing the river against this force, Chinese losses were only 3k. Is is time to pull out and try another avenue of approach? The Chinese are barely recovering AV, around 10/day while I recover around 50/day. However fresh Chinese units are free to increase the defenders strength while this is pretty much it for me.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at 76,51 (near Chihkiang)

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 2625 troops, 274 guns, 59 vehicles, Assault Value = 4097

Defending force 95460 troops, 646 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 3799

Allied ground losses:
9 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 1 (1 destroyed, 0 disabled)

Assaulting units:
116th Division
36th Division
17th Division
34th Division
22nd Division
60th Division
8th Engineer Regiment
51st Division
68th Division
13th Division
3rd Division
20th Ind. Engineer Regiment
52nd Ind.Mtn.Gun Battalion
3rd Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
4th Mortar Battalion
51st Ind.Mtn.Gun Battalion
2nd Mortar Battalion
15th Ind.Medium Field Artillery Regiment
11th Army
21st Mortar Battalion
2nd Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
1st Mortar Battalion
13th Army
23rd Army
2nd Ind. Mountain Gun Regiment
10th Ind. Mountain Gun Regiment

Defending units:
71st Chinese Corps
61st Chinese Corps
95th Chinese Corps
12th Chinese Corps
56th Chinese Corps
14th Chinese Corps
40th Chinese Corps
19th Chinese Corps
45th Chinese Corps
77th Chinese Corps
68th Chinese Corps
59th Chinese Corps
5th Chinese Cavalry Corps
3rd New Chinese/C Corps
2nd Chinese Base Force
13th Chinese Base Force

I think I'm going about this the wrong way. Is leaving the large Chinese stacks alone and just bypassing them to cut off their supply lines, forcing them to fight their way out of encirclement or starve the way to go here? There's just no way to mass enough Japanese AV at any one point to overcome the insane defensive modifiers the land combat model gives the defender as I see it. I'd have to amass 9k of AV and strip my entire front to achieve this force concentration. I thought my better troops and the fact the Chinese are low on supply and still suffering from (-) experience modifiers would matter, it doesn't appear to have much affect at all. That all important x3 defensive modifier and whatever additional AV reduction I suffer attacking rough terrain trumps anything else I can bring to the table. Correct?

I think I should avoid southern China all together now and shift back to the north for an all out drive on Chungking. Attack along a four hex wide front driving west from Ankang into the rough terrain and just keep going. I could then turn the flank of that monster 50 unit Chinese Army in the north.

I think you were right Chickenboy. The defensive terrain in the south is just too tough and the river makes flanking extremely difficult. I can't simply bludgeon my way here.

I think I've already answered my question. Interested to hear thoughts from others though before I decide to pull the plug and withdraw back across the river. The last screenshot I posted of Southern China should still show my position clearly for those that can't visualize what I'm talking about here.

My advice to others. Go with your first instincts. I should have shifted everything for an Ankang approach after capturing Changsha as originally intended long ago. This was a huge mistake and a waste of almost 2.5 months. [:@]

[Saros]

Dont attack in any sort of terrain bonus without at least twice the AV and a LOT of artillery and air support. Even against Chinese troops the terrain bonuses are just too good to overcome.
In the above example I wouldn't be surprised to see a deliberate attack result in 600+ disabled combat squads against maybe 100 Chinese.

Also if your opponent is flying low level raids then look into the 25mm AA batteries stationed in Manchuria. They have the highest effect rating of any IJA AA device and will kill even 4EB's in numbers if they come in under the devices ceiling of 7k ft. There are around 120 of these guns available scattered throughout Manchuria.

Otherwise as people have mentioned stack up some of the 88mm and 10cm AA co's and you can cause some pretty heavy losses. There should be ~110 10cm tubes available and ~330 88mm tubes found mostly in the HI and Manchuria. These have a ceiling of 31K.

[edit]

I went and pulled a summary if IJA AAA from my game. This is from 6/42.

[fcharton]

Hi Lemon-San,

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon
I'd like opinions on a tactical matter before I send off the next turn. Does anybody think launching a deliberate attack in rough/wooded terrain by the following Japanese forces against the Chinese would be a waste of time and troops? I suffered 29k casualties crossing the river against this force, Chinese losses were only 3k. Is is time to pull out and try another avenue of approach? The Chinese are barely recovering AV, around 10/day while I recover around 50/day. However fresh Chinese units are free to increase the defenders strength while this is pretty much it for me.

You are in December 42 (or is it 43 already), the Burma road has been shut for ages, Changsha, Sian, and the northwest are yours. Chinese industry is Kunming and the Sichuan basin, probably without the heavies, for lack of fuel. Your opponents must be eating tree barks!

Those big AV are not as bad as you think. Eventually, they will be reduced by the lack of supply (when totally unsupplied, they get quartered!). You have to bombard, and attack (deliberate, never shock against such large numbers unless you are certain of you superiority), to force them to burn their supplies, and eventually get reduced. It takes a while, but this is the way to go. And it is not a South vs North problem : you'd get the same south of Ankang.

I do understand the shock attack is discouraging, but this is the price to pay to engage the enemy. Now that you are there, just bombard, and attack, time is on your side.

Moving troops back to the north is a bad idea, in my opinion. It will provide the KMT with a lull, which allows them to repair their disablement, and restore some of their supplies...

Francois

[PaxMondo]

Bombard first to see.  Also deplete their supply.  Time is on your side and a Mssr fcharton states: their supply situation is bad and always getting worse.

[ny59giants]

My Chinese troops are in about the same spot as your opponents, but it is late July 42. He may read this AAR, but our game is his first PBEM, so it is a learning experience for him. The key against these "Death Stars" is disablement of troops and supplies. How many Army bombers can you put in China. I face over 300 daily and at times see over 400 bombers against various stacks. What bases are your bombers targeting daily to get supply hits?? Look at hitting this hex repeatedly with bombers for weeks before attacking again with occasional bombardments to check on his Assault Value.

[SqzMyLemon]

Thanks everyone. Bombardments are causing a few disablements and the odd destroyed squad. The above example is just the artillery unit bombarding alone and looks like it was a poor roll. Air attack by bombers directly against the troops so far has not been very effective. I'd say I have 200+ available. I've been bombing Chichiang and Changteh to cause supply loss. Perhaps I should focus just on Kweiyang and Changteh as they are the supply producing bases. I'll try and pound the ground forces to at least cause disorganization prior to deliberate attacks. I agree on these, I rarely use shock attack and of course was forced to in the initial crossing.

My forces have recovered, I've pulled out the worst of the two battered divisions to reform at Kweiyang. I will commit my armoured forces here then as well. Perhaps they can cause the breach with the Chinese poorly equipped with anti-tank capability.

Ok, I'll stick it out and see if I can start to bleed the Chinese badly. A delay as suggested will only help the Chinese recover and with the threat of opening a supply line into China from Burma looming, I may not have as much time as everyone thinks. I'm going to occupy Changteh to stop resources production as well. I'm looking at every little thing I can do to increase the poor supply situation. I'm expanding airfields in the north so I can start causing supply hits on Chungking and Chengtu as well.

Thanks everyone.