I moved a few tanks around less then 15 MP's for sure, there was NO as in zero combat and zero of my tank units are at the front. As a matter of fact almost no units were in contact last turn because Kamil pulled back from front.
Ok I have not moved a thing and my tank numbers DROPPED
1880 with 139 in the shop.
WTH is going on?
All, as in all my armor and mech units are on refit I have 200,000 arm pts and 258,000 men in manpower pool. Most of my armored units are not at 100% tow.
I lost 27 of the 42 tanks in the shop? Give me a freaking break guys.
PLUS I prodused zero tanks for a turn?
So if you move tanks you lose more then 1/2 that were in the shop? WTH?
Also should the German army not be making any AFV per turn?
I knew there was something going on with the german afv production and the crap with more then 50% of the afvs in the shop being magicly destoryed has got to end asap. That is total boytoy love for Mr Russia.
So you lost 27 tanks; maybe some were lost limping to the shop. Also, not "moving" does not mean that there is not a background rate of attrition for anyone of a hundred reasons. I beleive it was the 19th PZD (?) in reserve not moving at the start of Operation Uranus; when it was was ordered to counter the Soviets offensive the tanks were found to be immobile because mice had chewed through the electrical wiring [8|]
This is true. I read it in Beevor's "Stalingrad" and I just googled Staligrad and Mice and there are plenty of hits to corroborate what I wrote. Here is a hit from Wikipedia about the 22nd Panzer Division:
"The 22nd Panzer Division was a German Panzer Division in World War II. It was formed September 1941 in France. It was transferred to the southern sector of the Eastern Front in March 1942. The 22nd was the last Panzer Division to be issued with the Czech-built Panzer 38(t), which was considered under-gunned, under-armoured and obsolete by 1942.
After an initial disastrous attack on 20 March, in which the division's units lost 30-40% of their personnel, the division remained in the Crimea and took part in Manstein's Unternehmen Trappenjagd (Operation Bustard Hunt). In May 1942, the division was sent north to the Kharkov area and then took part in the 1942 summer offensive against Soviet forces in the Don River bend leading to the Battle of Stalingrad. The 22nd fought in the Battle of Rostov on 23 July 1942.
Together with the 1st Romanian Armoured Division (equipped with the also obsolete R2, similar to Panzer 35(t)), the 22nd Panzer Division comprised the XXXXVIIIth Panzer Corps and was next tasked with defending the northern flank of the ill-fated German 6th Army at Stalingrad. Lieutenant General Ferdinand Heim was the corps commander.
On November 19, 1942, Operation Uranus began. The great Soviet counter-offensive encircled the German 6th Army and much of the IVth Panzer Army and smashed the XXXXVIIIth Panzer Corps, including the 22nd Panzer Division. Many of the division's tanks had been parked in dugouts for an extended period of time and protected from the frost by straw. When the tanks were called on to respond to the Soviet offensive, many could not be started because mice had sought refuge in the straw and then in the tanks where they chewed up the insulation of electric system wires. The ability of the division to put up effective resistance was also compromised by the prior piecemeal deployment of division assets to shore up the Romanian line."
This a place for comraderie and to learn, not for insults. I hope you just learned an interesting but little known fact about the Battle of Stalingrad, and also why tanks can suffer attrition even without moving.
"Anyway, Hitler was not too disposed to take Romanian anxieties seriously. But he did agree to make tank and anti-tank forces available to them and been dug in, camouflaged and protected against the frost with straws and reeds. When the German division was ordered to take to the road, sixty-five of its hundred and four tanks could not be started. Even after intensive woordered XLVIII Panzer Corps into the sector on November 10th. Since September it had been inactive and because of fuel shortage many of the tank engines had not been started for over two months. The tanks had rk only forty-two could be put in running order. The straw had attracted mice, and the mice went into the tanks to look for food and feasted on the insulation covering the electrical wiring. When the tanks started up short circuits developed in their electrical systems, and several of them were set on fire by sparks."
There's nothing uncommon about this at all. If anything the engine is too generous considering the German logistical diaster in 1941-early 1942. You don't have to be in combat to have tanks break down. If you aren't receiving spare parts and replacement engines for the tanks that do break down, how do you get your tanks back in operation? Cannibilization of damaged tanks. The Germans lost about as many armored vehicles and aircraft to non-combat means as in combat. The Wehrmacht literally destroyed its own equipment through cannibilization because the rail system collapsed (only 20% of locomotives were functioning by the winter of 1941) with not enough supplies getting through to cover the Wehrmacht's minimum sustainment needs. That means that there was minimal space for replacement vehicles and spare parts when your front line units can't get enough food, ammunition, and fuel. By March 1942, the Germans reported about 250 functioning tanks in all of Russia. Also, by 31 January 1942, the Germans in the East had received less than 750 armored fighting vehicles (tanks and Stugs) as replacements representing about 25% of Germany's AFV production. The rest of that 75% was sent to France to build up new units.
“The average distance driven by our panzers was 11,500 kilometers for the Pz.Kpw.35(t) , 11,000 for the Pz.Kpfw. IV, and 3,200 for the gr.Pz.Bef.Wg. The special situation in regard to repair of the 38(t) is well known. It is indeed deemed necessary to point out that repairs can only be accomplished by cannibalizing other panzers because there are no longer any spare parts for the 35(t). This means that after retrieval of the panzers that are scattered around the terrain, a maximum of 10 can actually be repaired out of the 41 35(t) reported as needing repair. The 38(t) can no longer be rebuilt. All of the components are worn out. To be practical, maybe the armored hulls are still useable.” - Jentz
From a personal example, our Armored Brigade deployed to the National Training Center at Fort Irwin, California in 1997 for a force on force exercise. The exercise had to be halted for three days because the two armored battalions in our brigade couldn't get 50% of its tanks operational.
Trey
"You want mercy!? I'm chaotic neutral!"
WiTE Scenario Designer
WitW Scenario/Data Team Lead
WitE 2.0 Scenario Designer
So if you have 200,000 armerment pts which should mean you have allot of spare parts and dont move tanks you lose tanks?
Also you dont produce any tanks?
I am thinking Russian fayboys(unlike yourself) that the Germans kinda made a few tanks during 1942, just some generally newbie history. Lol hopefully you all can read, but I am guessing not.
The German produced close to 500 tanks per month 42, 1000 per month 43 and 1500 per month 44. I am guesing production numbers are not close to this in WiTe.
Anyone esle seeing these number?
And again the number of tanks in the shop is a dam joke,plus the number that get turned to junk.
The players have Olympian insight into everything. I suspect if you hardwired actual production into a gods-eye C3 game, it would be 'interesting'. Since we have all seen the maps of the era, lets introduce FOW for your OWN forces. Any unit which moved in the previous turn will randomly appear 1 hex 75%, 2 hex 20%, 3 hex 5% form its actual location. When you try an move them they expend MP if possible to 'get' where you think they are - after all they really, really want to follow orders. Then try Build Ups directed by OKH.
Fatigue is converted to damaged, and damaged are converted to destroyed at some mystery formula dependent on supply level, and (I think) experience. Just sitting still, your formations will have some residual fatigue that needs to 'run through the formulae' which will result in "losses".
Not that it will make a difference to you Pelton, you will read into what you want with your argument. But from personal experience being a M1A1 tanker for 12 years, tanks and heavy equipment break with minimal use. Moving in the motor pool, moving to a new line of departure...moving to get fuel...moving anytime anywhere. Not to mention what if Hans has a engine issue for weeks and the parts finally get in, the tank will be down while its being fixed. Suspensions take a lot of time and work to repair in the dirt and mud.
But to go on to one of your main points, the worst mechanical time sucking pigs will be cannibalized for parts first so therefore you actually loose tanks permantely if replacement parts are not available. Which is, IMO, what you can account for in the reduction of numbers...or in other words...'turned into junk'.
No I'm not going to search the internet and provide a link to prove my point, you should. To ask for a perfect 100% operational readiness in any mechanized force is total unrealistic....TOTAL UNREALISTIC. The game engine, in this case, is simulating a good thing IMO. Its not broken, your argument for repairs and repair losses is.
Not receiving any AFV for a week might be a problem. They probably don't put just few on a train and ship them off, I don't know. I'm sure that if you keep track of some of the individual units you will see them receiving vehicles. But that really doesn't explain why your total numbers are dropping [&:]
Like I said you will read into what you want with your argument.....I'm serious when I say good luck with getting answers to it [;)]
> I would personally like to know why 84 tanks are in the shop if NONE have moved? Not a single unit moved on the map.
Because they are fragile and breakdown easily; not moving at least 10 miles by you does not mean that they are not partolling and doing alot of mvt within the hex.
> And why to hell are 84 in the shop if I am not moving ANYTHING?
Because it may take linger than 1 week to fix a broken tank.
> The germans were only making 228 tanks a month? That is way way lower then historical.
Are your production numbers the entire output for all the fronts or for the Eastern front?
I trust your input as fact and will not disaree with a tanker.
My Grandfather lost his lower leg fighting in a Sherman tank during St-Lo breakout.
I have not moved these tanks for a month if not longer. Me and Kamil have been flipping turns quickly to get to Summer of 42.
I can beleive the fatigue thing, but when its been weeks and tanks are breaking down and numbers going up and down for no good reason I see several possible reasons for this.
1. Production numbers of german AFV is off or worse unstable.
2. The # of tanks needing repair is off and the % that get turned to junk is way way to high. 50% or more of tanks needing repair get junked?
The 47mm bug was over looked for a long time and poeple knew there was an issue, but it took a none dev to find the issue.
I am at a loss why tank numbers would drop 5% in a single week for no reason.
Basicly over 3 turns my tank numbers never went up they are stuck at 1900. We are not moving or fighting.
NONE have moved?
In your picture, I see 590819 Rumanians on turn 47 and then 586502 Rumanians on turn 48. Same thing for Hungarians, Italians. This is also true for their tanks. I think it's just front line attrition.
Some good points on some common troubles in maintaining tanks. Like Carnage, I had first-hand experience dealing with them, although it was before the M1-A1s rolled out.
I can envision a typical scenario, let's say a T-34 hits a panzer III in the engine compartment during a battle, immobilizing the vehicle. The damage is not catastrophic, but what happens between that moment and the time it rolls again.
First, the vehicle isn't being recovered in the middle of a battle. If the area is actively contested, the Germans best bet is to try and recover it at night. Otherwise you just wait for the successful outcome (you hope) of the battle.
Next is recovery of the vehicle from the battle area. You will have to tow it with another vehicle, either one designed specifically as a recovery vehicle, or a combat vehicle that has sufficient pulling power.
You have it pulled to safety, so someone can now do a damage assessment. Engine is a loss, and if replaced the tank can move again. And that's being generous and somewhat simplified. Throw in an engine fire as a result of the hit and we have burned out wiring that needs to be replaced. Ok, who has a spare engine lying around? Now we're either taking an engine from another vehicle that's a complete write-off or going to need an engine that had been shipped from the Fatherland by train, then truck to a field repair depot. Regardless, pulling a vehicle to safety was one move, now we have to transport it to the field depot, since the engine has to come out and we just can't tell 4 sturdy crewmen to lift on the count of three. You need the device that can get that sucker out, and that's at the depot.
ok, so it's at the repair facility and you're ready to have the engine pulled, but this isn't Jiffy Lube. Other vehicles may be ahead of yours, so the repairmen and equipment needed may or may not be ready to go. Once they are, there are various hoses that need to be disconnected among other stuff, and at least from my experience if you just need a new engine, before we can replace it, it has to be separated from the transmission first.
Engine comes out, the needful as mentioned above gets done, engine reassembled to the tranny goes back in, fluids are added, etc. and finally the vehicle is signed off as ready to go back. Then it has to make its way back to the company assembly area, may need to be reloaded with ammunition before it can be moved into a battle position.
What all of this comes down to is similar to what Marquo said, even if your panzerkompanie sits still, you may need more than a week to see your PzIII back among friends.
