Tank production bug??????

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Empire101
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RE: Tank production bug??????

Post by Empire101 »

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

Some good points on some common troubles in maintaining tanks. Like Carnage, I had first-hand experience dealing with them, although it was before the M1-A1s rolled out.

I can envision a typical scenario, let's say a T-34 hits a panzer III in the engine compartment during a battle, immobilizing the vehicle. The damage is not catastrophic, but what happens between that moment and the time it rolls again.

First, the vehicle isn't being recovered in the middle of a battle. If the area is actively contested, the Germans best bet is to try and recover it at night. Otherwise you just wait for the successful outcome (you hope) of the battle.

Next is recovery of the vehicle from the battle area. You will have to tow it with another vehicle, either one designed specifically as a recovery vehicle, or a combat vehicle that has sufficient pulling power.

You have it pulled to safety, so someone can now do a damage assessment. Engine is a loss, and if replaced the tank can move again. And that's being generous and somewhat simplified. Throw in an engine fire as a result of the hit and we have burned out wiring that needs to be replaced. Ok, who has a spare engine lying around? Now we're either taking an engine from another vehicle that's a complete write-off or going to need an engine that had been shipped from the Fatherland by train, then truck to a field repair depot. Regardless, pulling a vehicle to safety was one move, now we have to transport it to the field depot, since the engine has to come out and we just can't tell 4 sturdy crewmen to lift on the count of three. You need the device that can get that sucker out, and that's at the depot.

ok, so it's at the repair facility and you're ready to have the engine pulled, but this isn't Jiffy Lube. Other vehicles may be ahead of yours, so the repairmen and equipment needed may or may not be ready to go. Once they are, there are various hoses that need to be disconnected among other stuff, and at least from my experience if you just need a new engine, before we can replace it, it has to be separated from the transmission first.

Engine comes out, the needful as mentioned above gets done, engine reassembled to the tranny goes back in, fluids are added, etc. and finally the vehicle is signed off as ready to go back. Then it has to make its way back to the company assembly area, may need to be reloaded with ammunition before it can be moved into a battle position.

What all of this comes down to is similar to what Marquo said, even if your panzerkompanie sits still, you may need more than a week to see your PzIII back among friends.

I think M60A3TTS and Carnage have hit on the finer points of what the game engine is simulating. I too was a tanker with 8 years in the British Army on Chieftain, a tank with enormous fire power, armour, etc, ( we used to liken them to a modern Tiger ), but its power pack was basically a huge modified bus engine called the Leyland L60 pack. This engine was ok if it was worked hard everyday, but once they were back in barracks sitting around being started once in the morning to drive them out of the hangers for maintenance, and once in late afternoon to put them back in the hanger all hell would break loose, from minor mechanical faults to major mechanical faults developing out of nowhere. ( and I can assure you, my Regiment took maintenance extremely seriously ). This of course was in peacetime, without anyone trying to kill us, or any battle damage to deal with, and we were close to our permanent stores and heavy workshops on hand to rectify faults quickly.

Being stuck out in the middle of nowhere, constantly under threat of enemy action, with a myriad of faults developing at the drop of a hat would have put enormous strain on the German tank regiments and divisions, and their Light Aid Detachments/ Workshops. As mentioned in previous posts, cannabalisation of 'dead' tanks would have been a sort of mechanical 'triage', with some creeping back to the units after a week or two, but some never returning from the field workshops, condemned to be stripped to hulks.
Just imagine for a moment how inefficent that is and the strain it would put on an already overburdened AFV production line thousands of miles away in the Reich. Also mentioned was the excellent example of an engine damaged by a shell and the resulting fire. Time is a major factor, but also imagine the logistical nightmare of trying to reorder ALL the parts required to replace your stock before the next victim of the same sort of problem rolled into the workshop.

I think there maybe a problem though if what you say is true about no tanks being produced, although we would need to see screenshots to try to deduce what is going on.
From my point of view I have found the production system to work pretty much as it should do, and I have'nt found any major problems.
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randallw
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RE: Tank production bug??????

Post by randallw »

I believe German AFV production ( includes equipment like Stugs ) for 1941 was about 3700 or 3800.
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RE: Tank production bug??????

Post by Great_Ajax »

The Germans delivered about 750 tanks and stugs to the Eastern front from June 1941 through January 1942.
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RE: Tank production bug??????

Post by Peltonx »

Ok turn 50 I moved nothing as in nothing not a single unit.

I have moved nothing for 100% sure now for 3 turns.

I have gained 34 afv's wth?

You can't tell me there is not some screwed up shit going on.

turn 47 1907
turn 50 2028

Hello

Its mud still so I throw turn back to Kamil. I can't start summer O yet so this is a great test case for tracking this. Looks like I can track this for 3 more turns.

But I thk is more the obvious that there is an issue with afv production. I have manpower, armerment pts and units that need afvs and the numbers are not going up. I am not moving other then railing in units to front and the German afv # is not going up any wheres close to historical.

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RE: Tank production bug??????

Post by pompack »

Well, I can tell you but you won't believe it [:)]
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RE: Tank production bug??????

Post by Peltonx »

After the 47mm bug I beleive about anything.
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RE: Tank production bug??????

Post by DTurtle »

Looking just at the OOB does not tell you what is happening under the hood to create the number of total tanks and ready tanks.

You have to look at the production screen to see how many were produced. Then you can look at the logistics screen in order to see how many tanks were repaired and how many were written off. Then start comparing those numbers to see if they add up.

Only then can you start to see if there if there is something wrong and where that potential problem could come from.
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RE: Tank production bug??????

Post by 76mm »

Wow, I knew this game was detailed but had no idea that it modeled mouse-induced mechanical failures!

But in all seriousness, these numbers sound a bit off. I am also a former tanker and am familiar with the capricious beasts, but at the end of the day when the Germans are not moving, more panzers should be repaired than break down...

Besides, I'd be happy if Pelton focussed his attentions on this issue rather than other things are not obviously broken.[:D]
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RE: Tank production bug??????

Post by Peltonx »

turn----total afv-----shop------permanent loses
47-----1907---------42--------- ?
48-----1880---------139------- ?
49-----1994---------84--------- 12
50-----2028---------68--------- 5

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RE: Tank production bug??????

Post by 76mm »

Don't understand your numbers...no perm losses on t47 and 48? Actually the perm losses in t49 and 50 don't look crazy to me (12 of 84 and 5 of 68?). Maybe the problem is in production not repair?
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RE: Tank production bug??????

Post by Flaviusx »

I'm pretty sure that what's going on here is a TOE change with the panzer divisions that is reducing the raw numbers of AFVs each gets.

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RE: Tank production bug??????

Post by Peltonx »

turn----total afv-----shop------permanent loses
47-----1907---------42--------- ?
48-----1880---------139------- ?
49-----1994---------84--------- 12
50-----2028---------68--------- 5
51-----2276---------61----------8


Check out all the skf-222 amored cars in pool, 1911?

Lower down the list I have another 1000ish in pool. Almost 3000 HT's and I beleive they just been sitting there for as many turns as I can remember. The pro list is German only not ally arm units ect.

Also just looking at tanks and historical production which has been supplyed by more then one person on this thread it allot lower then historical tanks and assault guns shipped to eastern front.

I have not moved and will not finish turn until you feel I have posted enough info to go onto the next turn.

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RE: Tank production bug??????

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RE: Tank production bug??????

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RE: Tank production bug??????

Post by Klydon »

I have two interesting books with information to contribute that perhaps the average person may not be aware of, but I find rather interesting.

First, a tank strength report from 4 August 1941 shows that 50% of the tanks were operational, 30% were deadlined for repair and 20% were disabled. On 4 September the report was 47% operational, 23% deadlined for repair and 30% disabled. Included in this section was the note that some spare parts were able to make it to the units during this time period (both PG2 and PG3 were "rehabilitated" for approximately 2 weeks in August). There was a severe shortage of tank engines because Hitler insisted on production of new tanks for new units. Hitler did make available 400 tank engines for PG2 and PG3 (Guderian has stated he needed 300 just for PG2). Only emergency repairs were being done and facilities were inadequate (more on that in a minute) and repaired tanks breaking down again were common. Emergency repairs were expected to last 200-250 miles. The status of other vehicles (half tracks, prime movers, trucks, etc) was not much better. This is the same book that shows the Germans having 140 operational tanks on the entire front in March of 42 but also states the Germans had 3k tanks in theater by the start of the 42 offensive.

I also have another book about German tank maintenance in WW2 (relatively small). Very interesting to say the least.

Briefly, the Germans had a central depot center. The idea was that routine maintenance would be carried out at the unit levels and anything "tough" to repair would have the tank go to the central depot. This depot was a combination army/civilian manufacturer facility and was essentially the manufacturer working on the tanks since they had to provide the parts, etc anyway. This system held up well for the campaign in Poland (short) and the campaign in France (also short). Tanks that needed extensive repairs were returned to the central depot and the armored units rehabilitated in Germany. In addition, the Germans also had all the French armories to use as well and they were good facilities for repairing tanks as needed. In general, units in the field did not get tank "replacements" until the end of the campaign when they were rehabilitated and brought up to strength. If you think about it, this helps simplify the logistical tail of an army by not having to figure out how to rush new tanks forward as replacements. At this point, there was no apparent reason to change from the system they had been using.

Another issue is the German economy had been set up to provide the navy and airforce production priority. This is one of the reasons tank production languished. Then Hitler decided to invade Russia. No changes to the German economic priorities took place. It was not until the fall of 41 when it was clear the campaign would not be over with in 1 season that changes were made in production priorities. Another issue is what production there was in 1941 first went to rebuild 2nd and 5th panzer (lost all their tanks when the ships carrying their tanks sank after striking a new British minefield) and then went to fill out new units. Essentially, the Germans followed their previous policy of not sending new tanks (or other vehicles) to units in the field during a campaign. After all, the plan was the campaign would be over with in 1941 and the units would be rehabilitated after the campaign again. Obviously, things did not work out that way.

What had worked for the Germans before now failed miserably in Russia. Not only was the wear and tear worse than ever on the tanks (many veterans of both Poland and France), but there were no facilities in Russia that could help like there had been in France. The campaign was not a short duration campaign and vehicle losses exceeded all expectations. There were issues trying to get the broken tanks back to Germany for repairs and also trying to move anything forward even if that decision had been made (Hitler refused, insisting that all new production was needed for new formations).

As a result of learning from their mistakes, the Germans set up repair depots in Russia that also included both military and civilian staff from the factories as central points to gather broken tanks and repair/rehabilitate them after the blizzard. There was one for AGS and one for AGC. AGN had so little armor left that units were rehabilitated in place. Older models of panzer III's (the ones with the 37MM) were sent back to Germany for the most part and refurbished. The turret was replaced and other changes made so that the "new" tank was more or less up to the latest combat abilities. There has been a lot of discussion about these tanks as the German manufacturers would count them as "new" tank production when in reality, they were rebuilt. One of the biggest issues to plague the Germans during the war was the lack of spare parts. This was for anything you care to think of between tanks, aircraft, whatever. The Germans had a choice between providing parts to fix existing equipment or keeping these parts and increasing the number of new units built. More often than not, they went for more of the new units built. By contrast, the US not only produced a lot of everything, but produced enough parts to fully build another 50% of whatever it was they were building.

In short, the Germans getting few or no tank replacements in 1941 is absolutely historical. If the game does that on purpose, then it is correct. In future editions, perhaps there will be a toggle to allow the Germans to get replacements in the field (this was proposed and there were plans made, but Hitler said no). This would obviously be a German advantage to get replacements. The German non operational tank figure should climb as the campaign goes along and although it will be very low at some point, in the early months of 1942, the tank figure for non operational tanks should take a big spike down as the Germans went to temporary great lengths to get tanks fixed and back into the field along with new replacements (as per 140 operational tanks in March of 42, but 3k tanks by mid June 1942).


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RE: Tank production bug??????

Post by Klydon »

One other obseravation since my last post was long. [;)]

I am not a tanker and have never been in the army (was navy). I do repair stuff for a living. I was a repair tech in the navy as well.

It is my observation that with most things, there are a handful of weaknesses with a given design. You can pick most any complicated item and ask any tech that works on it, but my bet is they can name around 3 things or less that cause it to be broken 90% of the time.

It can vary from item to item, but the issue is that if you got 100 of these items broken through wear and tear, most will have the same broken part that needs to be replaced, so stealing from one to fix another really doesn't work that well because they all need the same thing.
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RE: Tank production bug??????

Post by DTurtle »

Do you have any information on how many tanks were repaired/refurbished and how many written off?

It seems like the system should be something along the lines of: a low percentage of disabled tanks get repaired and stay with the unit (field repairs), a larger percentage should get repaired and go into the pool, and the rest get written off. Units should only receive tanks from the pool when they are in refit mode at least X hexes from the front (on a rail line).

Looking at Pelton's number, the problem is not so much the total number of tanks, but rather that the tank numbers never drop low enough and then recover quickly once they are rested.
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RE: Tank production bug??????

Post by Klydon »

Part of the issue is define "written off".

If you are talking about a unit in the field, they may "write off" a tank in terms of they never expect it to run, so they have no issue tearing as many parts out of it as possible and basically there would mostly be a shell left. That doesn't mean a tank can't be repaired, but from the unit perspective, it doesn't make sense to do it in the field or it could be a case that the tank could be repaired, but the repairs and parts required are so extensive, they could likely fix three other tanks instead of just the one.

Part of what the German units would do is they would strip a deadlined tank and then according to procedure, send the shell back to the depot as requested. The issue is stripping the tank in the first place was not in the book or according to procedure from what they had done in past campaigns. Units knew if they gave up a tank, they would likely never see it again, so they would strip it of what they could and make what repairs they could to other tanks and then send it back.

Getting a shell back at the depot, it could (and often was) rebuilt into a "new" tank. (Again this is that shady area of a rebuild that many manufacturers would turn around and say they produced a "new" tank).

German units would also send "representatives" to the logistics areas to ensure that they got their share of parts when they did show up. (Basically think of it as a armed escort to make sure there wasn't any "trouble"). The smarter units sent higher ranking officers who simply pulled rank and took the lion's share of parts.
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RE: Tank production bug??????

Post by Karri »

How does the tank pool look like?
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RE: Tank production bug??????

Post by Peltonx »

The problem looks to be less about % repaired ect and more to do with a production issue

The % of junked tanks is kinda high, but this issue can be tweaked easly.

The main issue is the total lack of afvs being produced. Again I am not moving anything other then railing in a few new units. We have had no combat in 6 or 7 turns and I have not moved a thing in 4 turns and my afv number are static for 4 turns. Even if things were being produced as they should be its lower then historical by any account.

Whats up with the huge number of half tracks sitting in the pool?

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