Depth Charging the Nautilus - Cribtop (A) vs Nemo (J) (no Nemo, pls)

[Cribtop]

Mac, I share your high opinion of CanoeRebel. Stand up man, he is.

SoliInvictus, fear not for your Japan game, for you shall have the full size version of your thumbnail image to get you through the hard times of the late game!

[John 3rd]

ORIGINAL: Cribtop

Mac, I share your high opinion of CanoeRebel. Stand up man, he is.

SoliInvictus, fear not for your Japan game, for you shall have the full size version of your thumbnail image to get you through the hard times of the late game!

Thoroughly agree on CR!

Japan is INVINCIBLE every game! BANZAI!

[Cribtop]

First replay in the books. Nothing happened due to the truce except that Diego Garcia falls to the Allies. The game began in mid-invasion so there was really no choice other than to finish this fight. Banzai! Err, Hip, Hip, Hooray! Methinks the next liberation won't come so easily.

[Hektor]

Since this is my first post here let me just say that although I do not post at all I am at this and was at old Pacific war forum from the times when orignal PacWar was relased back in 90's.
I folow some of those threads and have also playing experience although do not post - I simply cannot be regular so decide not to.
Because there is interesting strategic discussion going here I thought I will add some into this if You are willing to read:)

Firstly Nemo is not much better  in playing skills than majority of You but he has two adventages: he plays with strategic goal in mind and more importantly he plays game engine and not  simulation.
In order to beat him one simply has to change his mindset from playing simulation into playing game engine.
So forget everything You read about Pacific War - it causes You to think in terms of simulating real war while You are going to play GAME.
One example to illustrate this. From history You know that kamikaze were in reality very inefficient and largely destroyed by cap. It is not the same here. Game engine allows for planes to penetrate cap easily. Most people attempt to play with some historical beliefs of what is possible in game. Instead of following historical observations read game manual and make tests on game mechanics.

Now to the stratgy.
You must set strategic objective. Your aim is to win. You achive this by destroying Japanese capability to conduct war. Japan in order to defend needs: navy, army, planes. In my opinion only planes matter in this game. When You destroy Japanese player ability to build planes You win. To destroy planes You have to kill plane production (not planes in air combat!) :
a) kill HI - not possible now because HI concentrations are beyond Your range. In time they will be in range but than Nemo will have sufficient Hi stockpiled to last him for later months of the war
b) kill plane factories (similar logic as in a)
But there is one commodity that Japan always needs and destroying its supply will destroy Japan's capability to produce planes (and pilots), it is
c) fuel

So Your strategic goal is fuel.
You deny fuel to Japan by:
a) concentrating all Your subs (except some picket ships) on tanker routes only. When sub hits merchant not tanker I would say it is loss of torpedo.
b) create small naval raider groups based around destroyers and raid into Java sea to intercept tankers. Loss of destroyers is irrelevant if You can kill tankers.
c) identify fuel hubs and hit them with mines/air raids
d) Establish air bases that allow for strategic bombing of fuel centers. This is more difficult because Nemo is likly to close any single airbase. So You must simultanously land on 4-5 islands/bases to provide mutual support it could be achieved but probably not now.
d) invade Sumatra - the plan is ready and assets are in place. Now it is very likly Nemo has reinforced Sumatra but it does not really matter. There is no better maskirovka for invasion of Sumatra than failed invasion of Sumatra.To make it workable You need big scale DECEPTION operation:
1) You  invade Sumatra now with insufficient assets (Nemo  sees that this is feint which it is and will start looking for Your real aim)
2) Now You have to provide him with this aim - deteach partial units from Your main reserves (from all important divisions!) prep them for something on Pacific side and start shipping to the Pacific Make sure You ship them through sealines  on which Japanese submarines operate. This together with sigint will convince Nemo that You made feint in Sumatra and You are shifting to the Pacific.
3) Start moves which will look like concentration of fleet for Pacific invasion
4) Launch real Sumatra invasion



Just throwing in some ideas. But most importantly to win the game (NOT SIMULATION) you concentrate ALL your actions on achieving strategic goal only. In real war this is of course not possible but again You are not simulating war You are coping with game engine which allows for many actions not plausible in reality so You do not bend this game to the reality (as many players wrongly do) but the other way (as for instance Nemo does).


Hektor

[Erkki]

ORIGINAL: Hektor

2) Now You have to provide him with this aim - deteach partial units from Your main reserves (from all important divisions!) prep them for something on Pacific side and start shipping to the Pacific Make sure You ship them through sealines  on which Japanese submarines operate. This together with sigint will convince Nemo that You made feint in Sumatra and You are shifting to the Pacific.

Welcome to forums! However, this part is not required. Japanese SIGINT sucks. He gets like 4 lines of "radio activity detected at hex" per turn - - and thats it! Theres a bigger chance to get those radio activity reports from high concentrations of troops and ships(so one is like to get 1 from Sydney, 1 fromPH and 1 from SF/LA a turn) or so. Its possible to get one for ships at sea but it takes huge number of ships, a full invasion fleet. Empty ships might work just as well, just show some APAs and landing ships with them and not just xAKLs...

[Cribtop]

Wow, Hektor, great post! Glad to see this thread is causing some de-lurking. You are spot on - Nemo plays the game engine and thus so must I. Superb thoughts on how to handle the basic dilemma of how to attack Sumatra when Nemo knows I'm set to attack Sumatra. I think between your post, Alfred's advice and all the help from numerous other posters and PM'ers I'm starting to come up with a plan.

[soticrandy]

Thunder run into Tokyo Bay.

He would least expect that.

[Cribtop]

Scratch the whole thread, I'm closing it down and going with soticrandy's plan! [:D]

[Canoerebel]

Hektor's post makes for very interesting and insightful reading. (I have to say, though, that when somebody who is obvioiusly very familiar with the game suddenly shows up on the forums with a very current "sign on" date, it makes me wonder if the person is actually one of our regulards showing up in disguise with a manufactured bio to try to throw us off. This isn't meant to say that Hektor isn't exactly what he says he is, but I nevertheless I can't help but wonder. You know: Is Hektor actually Alfred? Is he me? Nah, not me! Is he Chickenboy or Bullwinkle or PaxMondo or herwin or any of a zillion other people?) [:)]

I agree with Hektor's analysis that fuel is crtiical to Japan's health, but there is an achille's heal that is more obvious and more susceptible to Allied operations early in the game: capital ships, espeicaly cruisers, but also of course battleshhips and fleet carriers. Japan only has 18 cruisers in the game. KNock of few of those out and Japan suddenly has difficulty drawing escorts for carrier and bombardment TFs. Continue to whittle those capital shps and suddenly Japan has difficulty stopping the invasions or carrier strikes that put the Allies in better range to deal with the enemy fuel LOC and factories more efficiently.

Nemo will commit his capital ships in bold offensive actions or in critical defensive situations. Figuring out how to entice him into a battle on terms as favorable to the Allies as possible might be Job One for an Allied player.

[Cribtop]

To sythesize Hektor and Dan, I tend to agree with Nemo's premise that Japan should seek airframe attrition, while the Allies should seek naval attrition. I plan to seek operational level naval attrition while trying to kill fuel on the strategic level as the means of dealing with Japan's air force long term.

[DOCUP]

ORIGINAL: Cribtop

To sythesize Hektor and Dan, I tend to agree with Nemo's premise that Japan should seek airframe attrition, while the Allies should seek naval attrition. I plan to seek operational level naval attrition while trying to kill fuel on the strategic level as the means of dealing with Japan's air force long term.

What is it that Nemo says about a plan. If it can't be said in 2 or 3 sentences its to complex and will not work. Something like that. Good solid plan thats workable. I like it.



EDIT: Sorry for the size

[Cribtop]

Love the A Team reference!

Ok, now we have a decent strategic level plan. Objective 1 - destroy the IJN via favorable attrition. Objective 1a - destroy the IJ air forces by destroying fuel sources and access to fuel sources. End stage will see operational advance to within bombing and fighter range of the Home Islands to reduce Japan's industry to ash.

Operationally, we will push on several levels to enact a form of the Hektor plan. Primary intention is to move 4Es within range of DEI oil/fuel sources, Palembang chief among them but eventually Borneo and Java depots as well. This will be combined with a convincing SWPAC thrust, feints in various theaters, and aggressive raiding.

Thanks, gents. Here we go!

[DOCUP]

What about the oil in China?  I don't know if it's enough to run his HI?

[Graymane]

Can you take some time to summarize the situation on the map by region? I'm wondering where your major forward bases are and how vulnerable the SLOCs into them are.

[Olorin]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
(I have to say, though, that when somebody who is obvioiusly very familiar with the game suddenly shows up on the forums with a very current "sign on" date, it makes me wonder if the person is actually one of our regulards showing up in disguise with a manufactured bio to try to throw us off. This isn't meant to say that Hektor isn't exactly what he says he is, but I nevertheless I can't help but wonder. You know: Is Hektor actually Alfred? Is he me? Nah, not me! Is he Chickenboy or Bullwinkle or PaxMondo or herwin or any of a zillion other people?) [:)]

I have the same suspicion...
Could he be Cribtop offering advice to himself? We are probably paranoid and he is really Hektor though.

Btw, good luck Cribtop [:'(]

[princep01]

Hektor is bogus. I know....I killed Hektor before the walls of Troy.

Achilles

[Cribtop]

I'll try to summarize the situation soon, but it may take until the weekend before I get to this request.

Hektor's status is intriguing, but not even I am indirect enough to post advice to myself. However, as long as it isn't Nemo I think it's pretty good advice. [:'(] IMHO Hektor's plan gives an operationally sound method to implement Alfred's suggestion to stay the course.

[John 3rd]

How are thing coming here Mr. Cribtop?

[Cribtop]

Good question - thanks for asking. We both agreed that the first week of the game, which is a cease fire period, would go VERY slowly. We've each done a few turns and I feel like I've got a handle on things. Nemo warned me this turn would be glacial as he has to sort out the economy to his liking. I expect after that the game will pick up a bit. It will never be fast, but we'll probably do 3 turns a week.

I will maintain this AAR, but it will be strictly for headlines and requests for advice rather than a daily chronicle.

[John 3rd]

Thanks and Good Luck!