timmyab (sov) vs Majeloz (Axis)

[timmyab]

This game was started a couple of weeks ago under 1.04.We will be upgrading to 1.05 at some point.

Turn 1
Very little out of the ordinary in the North or center.Good play from Matt, with strong advances and no opportunities for me to break any of the pockets.




The South didn't go so smoothly for him.The Lvov pocket was broken and about 70 aircraft were destroyed on the ground by a leaker from the Kovel pocket.

[timmyab]

Turn 2
A pretty spread out approach from AGN with no clear Schwerpunkt.The main point of interest is that a panzer corps has gone North of the Dvina, I think 39th.The HQ from this corps is caught with it's pants down by a division from 11th army and routed.Hopefully this will disrupt 39th pz corps next week.


In the center our turn one lines are only breached in one place by a motorised division which is successfully counterattacked by 3rd army.


In the South, the Lvov pocket is permanently resealed by AGS and the Stalin line is smashed to the South of Proskurov.55th corps retreats a vulnerable pz division but the position is now too exposed so the bulk of 18th army withdraws to the East, leaving behind a fairly strong picket.Wouldn't want to be those guys.[:)]

[timmyab]

Turn 3
First turn of serious industry withdrawal.Most of it has gone from Odessa, Kirovograd and Kiev with just some heavy left behind.

Strangely quiet on the Stalin line to the South of Pskov.We're getting quite cosy in our bunkers now.
Further South, 39th panzer corps drives a wedge into 22nd army's front along the North bank of the Dvina.


In the center, 3rd army is pushed back, but it's done it's job of shielding the main line while it gains strength.


Pz group 1 is unleashed North and South of Vinitsa.18th army under Zakharov counterattacks the spearhead pz division and drives it back across the river with heavy loss of tanks for the Germans.It's only a local victory though and the general retreat is soon sounded.

[timmyab]

Turn 4
Quite a lot of preemptive retreating going on this turn especially in the South.Choosing the right time and how far to withdraw is a tricky business and I tend to err on the side of caution.I have to keep reminding myself that the goal is to slow my opponent down, not stop him dead.That way lies disaster.The best way to do this is to insure that a large chunk of your army remains on the board, especially the "good" divisions.Unfortunately the bulk of 55th corps have paid the ultimate price for getting too close to the fire this turn.18th army could probably have relieved them for a week but the counterattack would have exposed several divisions to encirclement by the built up pz corps around Vinnitsa.I choose to get them digging behind the river.I don't trust fortifications on their own, better to have some sort of solid terrain to base the defence on.I'm of the opinion that forts shouldn't be reducable in combat below level 1.
On the plus side, a motorised division is retreated to the East of Zhitomir which allows a loose encirclement to be thrown around the lead pz corps.
The weight of armour to the West of Velikie Luki also persuades me to retreat 22nd and 11th armies to more easily defended and less flankable positions.Majeloz is an excellent opponent but his strategy of attacking me here is a bit of a long shot I think.Although there are some advantages for the German player, especially the uncertainty of whether the target is Moscow or Leningrad, the superb defensive terrain more than compensates the Soviet player.
We're playing with random weather.I've never done so before, but I have the feeling that Matt has been lucky here because mud has only affected the european zones so has left him completely unaffected.
3 Arm and 2 HI are railed from Nikoleav and Krivoi Roi leaving behind just one HI in both cities plus everything that's left in Kiev.
9th corps is left in the Crimea to fortify the choke points and also acts as the main reserve in the South.I tend to cycle units in and out of the Crimea to gain strength, dig a bit and then asign them to a front line army as soon as they're strong enough.The two divisions in Odesa are also available as reserves if badly needed elsewhere.

[timmyab]

Losses at the end of turn 4 seem a bit on the high side for both of us.Matt drives his panzers hard and coupled with my counterattacks, his AFV losses are beginning to mount up

[timmyab]

Turn 5
Both pzgr 4 and 39th pz corps have gone all in to the west of Velikie Luki, a level of commitment in this area that I've never seen before.If they intend to continue heading East then there's still plenty of hard work before they break out into easier terrain and their supply situation will get worse quickly.Still I have to gaurd against the possibility so 11th and 22nd armies are much stronger than they would normally be and lead by Malinovsky and Vasilevsky respectively.This advance traps one of the red armies best divisions.A counterattack is organised by Vasilevsky to relieve it and succeeds.This division is now a major pain for the Germans and they may be forced to rout it.Velikie Luki is heavily garrisoned to defend the easiest route East.The rest of 22nd army pulls back to prevent it being flanked, 11th army retreats to good defensive terrain.27th and 30th army are posisioned to block the direct approach to Leningrad.
The landbridge is a carpet-strongpoint mixture.The defenders of the upper Dnieper have hardly laid eyes on a German soldier yet and are gaining strength steadily, this is about to change as the German 4th army looms on the horizon.A rough head count tells me that there probably isn't any armour amongst it but I'm not 100% certain.

[timmyab]

Another week of retreating in the South, but the red army is not completely toothless and pzgr 1 is counterattacked by 16th and 18th armies to the West of Cherkassy with the hapless 14th pz division again being driven back across a river with heavy AFV losses.This attack also isolates the two lead divisions.I had to dissuade Vatutin from attempting to rout these two divisions.Even though it may be possible it would undermine our defense in this critical sector even if successful.

8 arms are railed out of Poltava, 4 out of Z-town and 2 arms and 2 HI out of Kremunchug

[timmyab]

Turn 6
North
It is finally clear that 4th pz group's target is Leningrad as it turns North and smashes into 27th army.Four divisions have narowly escaped being completely encircled and 27th army HQ is also caught in the pincer jaws so I displace it which means that 27th army has temporarily ceased to exist as an effective fighting force.This shift North is actually a relief for me because I can now start to thin out 11th army and send some of it's best divisions to more critical sectors.23rd army gaurds the direct approach to Leningrad and I appoint my best unassigned leader to command it, Rokossovsky.I've made no attempt to form a solid line along the Luga but instead fill out the swamps and hills with my infantry divisions to produce a web of strongpoints.The difficult terrain of these strongpoints for tanks should guarantee that the infantry will be needed to make any significant headway up here.The best division from 11th army is reasigned to 34th army and sits in the linchpin position to gaurd against a right hook.
Center
AGC continues to bludgeon it's way further into the landbridge.3rd army takes the brunt of this effort and is pretty badly beaten up with three more of it's divisions in danger of being pocketed around Vitebsk.South of Mogilev, 4th army makes contact with my main line.
South
1st pz group is halted between Cherkassy and Kirovograd by 18th army which then withdraws behind the Dnieper.Again the risk of being flanked is enough to force 9th army to retreat to the next river line.
For the evacuation of industry I'm following the recieved wisdom of prioritising the arms factories.Sixteen disappear from D-town and two from Gomel plus one HI.All the industry is still in Leningrad, I judge that the city's rail link is safe for next week at least.

[timmyab]

Turn 7
North
4th pz group is commited to the left flank which gives me confidence to push 34th army into more forward defensive positions.The main line runs from Oranienbaum down to Novgorod.Two divisions from 27th army make a nuisance of themselves by flipping territory and attacking supply lines.Unfortunately, a slip of the mouse caused me to inadvertently move another cavalry division into this attack and I'm expecting to lose all three of them.Seven arms factories are moved from Vsevolzhsky and also sixteen units of the KV1 factory from Leningrad.Everything else is still in the city and I intend to leave most of it there as a carrot in order to keep 4th pz group occupied for the rest of the summer.You can't avoid losing some vital industry, but you can choose where to lose it from and what is lost here will be saved somewhere else, just so long as the KV1s get out ok.

[timmyab]

Center
Quite an aggresive push here from AGC.Luckily my strongpoint backstoppers prevented any major breakthrough.I resist the temptation to whack the weaker units so as to preserve my dwindling strength.4th army is also across the Dnieper to the South.These penetrations persuade me after much humming and harring that it's time to abandon the Dnieper line.This may be a bit premature but I think you can afford to be slightly risk averse as the Soviet player.29th army maintains a picket on the river.10th army, consisting of 5 cavalry divisions, makes a possibly ill advised sortie further into the marshes to isolate a german security division.If this micro offensive goes bad I will have the 10th army commander shot.The center will from now on get priority for reinforcements.

[timmyab]

South
The South is affected by mud from just North of a line Krivoi Rog - Z-town Southwards.Once again Matt has been lucky with the weather and the mud probably affects me as much as it does him, making it impossible for me to put any serious CVs into the marshes to the SW of Z-town.Two of the divisions there are only just above depleted level, a gentle breeze will blow them away.Seven arms factories are evacuated from the Donbass region.I'll probably start to move Stalino next week.

[timmyab]

Losses are still on the high side for both of us.In particular, the Axis AFV losses look to be unsustainable.

[timmyab]

Majeloz has conceded defeat here.He thinks it'll turn into 1942 onwards trench warfare, which it probably would until the German army breaks sometime in 43.Difficult to say for certain but I don't blame him for not wanting to waste hundreds of hours on what he feels is a forgone conclusion.
Final positions.
Turn 8
North
I'm fairly certain that Leningrad would have fallen here, but probably not before the 41 campaining season was over.

[timmyab]

Center
Layers of defence are starting to be built in front of Moscow and will continue until either the Germans change course or disaster strikes, either way this area now has top priority.
A counterattack just West of Smolensk on the lightly defended flank of AGC's spearhead allows a cavalry division to disrupt it's supply.

[timmyab]

Gomel
4th army pressure around Gomel prompts me to start evacuating the marshes.

[timmyab]

South
AGS forces a crossing just South of Kiev.I take the cautious option of not counterattacking this bridgehead.The result is very uncertain and defeat for me would make the German's task that much easier.Again it's a case of not really needing to take risks as the Soviet player.As it is, the bridgehead will probably take a couple of weeks to expand to a point where I feel the need to leg it.
At least half of 1st pz group has gone South towards Nikoleav which has a slightly desperate feel to me.My forces on the Dnieper bend should be undisturbed for a couple of weeks with 11th army still far away.
17 arms are railed out of Stalino and 4 from Bryansk, plus one of the IL2 factories from Moscow.

[timmyab]

Conclusion
This game was started just before 1.05 was released so i guess doesn't tell us anything we didn't already know.However, I don't believe the new patch helps the Axis much if at all in 41? which goes to confirm my growing feeling that the Soviets are still slightly overpowered even in 1941.Majeloz is a highly competent player and made very few mistakes, yet even so I was able to contain him quite comfortably whilst preserving most of my army intact, (up until now anyway)[:D].
I think that the most important flaw in the game design is that Soviet command and control is far too good in 41/42.You just don't get any sense of the chaos that was mostly responsible for their appalling defeats, especially in 1941.I'd like to see the C&C system completely revamped so that Soviet leader ratings are lower whilst also making it very much more difficult to swap out poor leaders.Also communication problems could be simulated between lower and higher commands leading to possibly severely reduced MP allowances for units under multiple comanders with failed rolls.This reduction should be cumalative right up the command chain so that units under poor corps, army and front commanders will have a significantly increased risk of becoming immobilised.Gradually as you go through 41 and 42 this effect would deminish as you replaced rubbish commanders, (but slowly).This will lead to more pocketing by the Germans and a weaker Soviet army in late 41/42.HQ buildup would need tweaking to avoid the Germans being too strong, but that's a good thing too.

[bwheatley]

ORIGINAL: timmyab

Conclusion
This game was started just before 1.05 was released so i guess doesn't tell us anything we didn't already know.However, I don't believe the new patch helps the Axis much if at all in 41? which goes to confirm my growing feeling that the Soviets are still slightly overpowered even in 1941.Majeloz is a highly competent player and made very few mistakes, yet even so I was able to contain him quite comfortably whilst preserving most of my army intact, (up until now anyway)[:D].
I think that the most important flaw in the game design is that Soviet command and control is far too good in 41/42.You just don't get any sense of the chaos that was mostly responsible for their appalling defeats, especially in 1941.I'd like to see the C&C system completely revamped so that Soviet leader ratings are lower whilst also making it very much more difficult to swap out poor leaders.Also communication problems could be simulated between lower and higher commands leading to possibly severely reduced MP allowances for units under multiple comanders with failed rolls.This reduction should be cumalative right up the command chain so that units under poor corps, army and front commanders will have a significantly increased risk of becoming immobilised.Gradually as you go through 41 and 42 this effect would deminish as you replaced rubbish commanders, (but slowly).This will lead to more pocketing by the Germans and a weaker Soviet army in late 41/42.HQ buildup would need tweaking to avoid the Germans being too strong, but that's a good thing too.

I would also enjoy seeing a good leader at an army impart some combat bonuses down the line (it might already but i'm not 100%).
The problem i see with modeling poor soviet C&C is when do you start doing that to germany too? If you try to balance that for the soviets when do you start balancing it for the germans. Perhaps i'm playing wrong but in the first 5-10 turns i'm certainly getting my butt whooped and units pocketed. It seems your german opponent is super slow on his advance. Also some russian players choose to sir robin and some fight. If you fight you'll have pockets if you retreat well you retreat. In my first 10ish turns if you fight you will have trouble forming lines and you will not have the luxury of units 2 deep in lines. That said though it still appears your german counter part is really being very very cautious.

[timmyab]

No, he's a reasonably good player i'm certain.I've played a couple of genuinely slow cautious Axis players who have basically got as far as the Stalin line and stopped dead for a couple of turns before giving up.In fact I'd wager that he's a better Axis player than I am.

ORIGINAL: bwheatley
The problem i see with modeling poor soviet C&C is when do you start doing that to germany too?

The answer is that you don't.It's a Soviet 41/42 thing.The Germans C&C was extremely good right from the start.All you have to do is adjust both side's leader ratings so that a failed roll on the German side is very unlikely, but much more likely on the Soviet side especially in the early stages.