Japan in WitPAE versus Germany in WitE

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

In WitE the "victory" for Axis should be the fact that player is better than history - in other words if he/she kept the Russians away from Berlin by the time the historic WWII in Europe ended (May 1945)!

This is along the same lines as Japanese in WitP and WitP-AE - the "victory" for them would be if the Japanese player could hold Allies further from the Home Islands that it was historically (August 1945)!

Total victory in WitE for Germans and Japanese for WitP / WitP-AE should be and is almost impossible because this is how things historically were - if we want historic game / simulation and not some sort of fantasy this is how things are...

I believe part of why the 'acceptance' of the historical fate of the War in the East is so different from the War in the Pacific is the perception that it was a very close-run thing. The Germans got tantalizingly close to Moscow, got quite close to Stalingrad, and all in all there are several instances where one might have drastically changed the course of the war if only some alternate decisions were taken.

That is, there's basically no way no how that the Japanese were ever going to surmount an eventual defeat at the hands of the US, and that plays into a Japanese player's psyche and approach, but a German player may take the scenario he's presented with grim determination to just tip the scales a little more into victory.

(Of course, it goes without saying that there's no guarantee of a Soviet armistice even in the event of the big three cities falling, but simply being able to march into the Kremlin would be a notable achievement even if the Reds would have fought on in a parallel universe)

The fall of Moscow and/or Leningrad and/or Stalingrad would not mean the end of Soviet fighting... on contrary... [;)]

Even if all three cities listed above fell the Soviets would still have large army, large production deep in the back (out of German reach) and even more resolve to fight!

Like I wrote in the first message I wrote - the Soviet Union was not France - we simply can't objectively "judge" Soviets by Western USA/European standards (similarly how we can't objectively "judge" Japanese by those same USA/Western European standards)...


Leo "Apollo11"

[veji1]

Well I can see the danger here of getting dragged in an endless debate about "should the German be given a better chance to win the game?". From my point of view this isn't the issue. I haven't bought the game (not enough time and major risk of divorce if I did!) so my comments surely must be taken with a grain of salt but I think the issue lies not in 41 but in summer of 42 onwards for Germany in this game.

From then on I think Germany having a bit more flexibility on how to organise its forces, which SUs to have and use, and adapt its TOE depending on how it wants to play the game would make sense. I mean for example the game has inbuilt the creation of AGA and AGB based on a set of circumstances. Why can't that type of options not be opened to the player more often ?

There are ideas to be dug here, but I suppose this would be for the community to do if the editor allows it.

[76mm]

The Germans' inability to create new HQ really seems rather odd...

[TulliusDetritus]

WitP and the Admiral's edition are not really two different games. It's the same game engine, code. AE is simply a forum's creature. Many new features are added, map is different, OOB has been reworked. If you have played AE you won't play WitP. And if you play -as I do- the Da Big Babes mod (logistics are even more realistic), you won't play stock AE either [8D]

I'm pretty certain this is what is going to happen with WitE so I guess people should be patient... or start modding [:)]

The thing I am missing in WitE is the ability to make defensive positions behind the front-line. Yes, you can do it but it's very expensive (Fortified Regions). The Sec Regiments are now disbanded and the brigades can't dig that much (the Strategig Reserves are not here to dig, they are needed to react here and there). The historical fact is the Soviets had created 10 ENGINEER ARMIES to fortify many places (disbanded in 1943 if I remember correctly) [;)] They are more or less in the game. The RR thing. But they won't do ANYTHING if a real, concrete unit is not present in x hex. As opposed to really having what the Soviets had: the engineer armies I have mentioned: "send 1st Engineer Army to Voronezh area [maybe 10 hexes BEHIND the front] and start digging fortifications"...

And still, with the current game, if a Soviet player makes quite many mistakes (and no one is perfect) then MAYBE they will not even get to the Reich frontier... So if you strenghten the Germans even more maybe they will not even get to Minsk...

No matter what, in WitP and AE (mods included) the Japanese are doomed. The US will ALWAYS produce astronomical quantities of materiel. These forces alone will crush A N Y Japanese defence... I mean the outcome will always be "historical". Remember the allies only need to land in Marianas Islands for example. From there er... an A Bomb will be dropped. Game over [:D]

[jomni]

To OP... the reasons you gave that makes playing Japan more fun are the reasons why I don't like playing Japan in WITP.   To many things to do and worry about but you still lose anyway. If you don't do them well, your loss becomes quicker.

[TulliusDetritus]

Jonmi, in Uncommon valor I was possibly one of the only players that played (PBEM) a historical campaign as JAPANESE. I did not have the carriers sunk in Midway. Only the Shokaku, Zuikaku and Co. It was a lot of fun so...

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

Jonmi, in Uncommon valor I was possibly one of the only players that played (PBEM) a historical campaign as JAPANESE. I did not have the carriers sunk in Midway. Only the Shokaku, Zuikaku and Co. It was a lot of fun so...

Oh I played plenty campaigns in UV and WitP (much much less in WitP-AE due to WitE development) via PBEM as Japanese... [:)]

I won many of those games (especially in UV - once even in game that was continued by "Mogami" when original Allied player surrendered)... [:D]


Leo "Apollo11"

[Mike13z50]

ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000

ORIGINAL: Numdydar
You are correct and a very good point. WitPAE is, as you point out, version 2.0 of the original WitP. But is not this WitE version 2.0 of the original WitE?

Not quite. To make a comparison:

Pacific War -> War in the Pacific -> War in the Pacific Admiral's Edition
War in Russia -> War in the East -> We're-not-here-yet

Missed a couple there:
War in Russia (1984)==>Second Front (1990)==>Gary Grigsby's War in Russia (1993)==>Gary Grigsby's War in the East (2010)

In the 1984 War in Russia you could build units as the Germans and your rail repair units could lay down new tracks!

[jomni]

ORIGINAL: Mike13z50

Missed a couple there:
War in Russia (1984)==>Second Front (1990)==>Gary Grigsby's War in Russia (1993)==>Gary Grigsby's War in the East (2010)

In the 1984 War in Russia you could build units as the Germans and your rail repair units could lay down new tracks!

Yeah but you end up with loads of Tiger II divisions that make it very gamey.

[Great_Ajax]

Why is that odd?

ORIGINAL: 76mm

The Germans' inability to create new HQ really seems rather odd...

[Numdydar]

After thinking about this some more, I wanted to elaborate on the production point I made in my OP.

The ability of the weaker side of the conflict to be able to change the priotities of what is important is one of the biggest factors in why playing Japan in WitP AE versus WitE as Germany. This gives the player a chance to see how changing the production levels of planes and engine types, accelerating different ship construction would have had on the war. So even though you know going in you are going to get defeated, you can at least see how your changes effected the outcome. So by getting certain planes earlier than the historical schedule, what impact would that have on the war?

In WitE, the opposite is true. The stronger side is handed this ability to change their mix of forces while the weaker side is on a fixed historical schedule. This would be like WitP AE the Japanese would have everything set historically, while the US could change it production at will. Not many people would think it would be fun to play Japan then. of course, there are plenty of topic on the WitP AE forums that gripe about the Allies not being able to increase troops/planes/ships if the Japanese does better than historically. Similar to what is discussed here in this forum with Germany being forced to react historically without having the historical triggers that casused these changes.

While this is very ahistorical with both games and on both sides, the only way to change this is to have the entire world represented, i.e. World at War, HoI series, DG's War in Europe, etc. As an example, Japan can capture all of China in WitP AE by late 42/early 43 simply by reducing the forces held against the Russians. Then many of these assests could then be transfered in Burma and invade India while a signicent increase in troops over the historical invasion. Would the British not react and send more troops? Or would they just keep what was there and hope for the best? If the larger scale conflict was modeled, then the player could make the stratigic decision about what to do. In bot WitP AE and WitE this type of reaction is unavailable.

But even if Japan did all of this, it would only slow the defeat not eliminate it as the game, just like WitE, there is not much the weaker side can do with a strating point in 12/42 and 6/41 respectively. Having the stronger side, Russia, be able to adjust it's forces avay from the historical production line, just makes playing Germany not a very fun experience. The stronger side gets stronger faster while the weaker side is stuck.

The reason I bring this up again is that with WitW in design, which I will buy [:)], once agin the weaker side will be stuck. At least, I hope anyway, that both side will have historical production. If the Allies can change there production, while a great test bed for WitW '39 or '36, once again German players will be on the short side of the stick. So two games in a row will feature German players forced to sit and just take it on the chin. I must cry foul.

So please try and throw SOMETHING to the German player that will allow them to at least to make some changes to there forces vurses screwing them again with a historical schedule. While starting in '43 will not be able have much of an impact, it will at least have some. Plus we can at least play a much better game of 'What If' as Germany than we can now. Otherwise make a kickass AI for Germany as I really cannot see much reason for a human to ever want to play them in either WitE or WitW.

[Flaviusx]

The freedom to build your own Red Army in this game is something of an illusion. I have it on good authority that nobody in this game has managed to build a Red Army as large as the historical one in terms of formations -- this suggests to me that the Soviet Union is rather AP starved.

From that standpoint the Soviets would actually be better off with a historical reinforcement schedule. Beyond that, in many respects the best Red Army you can build is remarkably close to the real one, and the game doesn't really reward you for trying to build a wildly ahistorical Red Army. Nor does it furnish you the AP budget to make such a thing to begin with.

The Axis, on the other hand, has ample APs to deal with their command issues (which are in any case trivial compared to the catastrophic Soviet one, which takes years to straighten out) build literally hundreds of fortified regions, and still stockpile hundreds of APs during large stretches of the war.

I'd happily trade in this Soviet "freedom" in exchange for AP free historical reinforcements and the ability to concentrate APs on operational issues rather than force construction. More and more I feel this entire idea to treat APs as a kind of universal game currency is a mistake. The traffic is more than they can bear. The model is extremely crude and simplistic and doing too many things that have no real relation to each other. Zhukov is indeed not worth 10 elves.

[glvaca]

I have to agree with the points raised by TD & Flavius, as the Soviet, I find it very difficult to find troops to digin in depth as was done historically as he mentions.
And likelwise as the Sovs, you really don't have AP's to do much experimenting or even shift things around. Shifting 1 army can cost up to 50+ AP's!
Really, I'm not sure what the fuss is about!

[hfarrish]

I second all these points. I always play Soviet and I've never felt like I ha some amazing advantage. Quite honestly from a general playability standpoint I would PREFER a historical replacement schedule - the game is a monster as is without having to deal with that for 180 turns. I know there are many who have a lot more time on their hands though. Again, I guess something where optionality would be a plus.

[Meteor2]

The comparison between WITE and WitPAE is an interessting one and I agree, that playing Japan, even if its defeat is garanteed, is far more attractive.
And there, by the way, the unplausible outcome of the Midway battle, does not mean, that the lost japanese carriers are removed from the game, if Midway had not happened.
IMHO it was a bad start, that the devs of WITE had not heard, what a lot of there customers wished from the very beginning... The possibliity to produce equipment and ship it
to certain units. In WITE Germany is bound to tracks and there are very few possibilities to leave them. Blizzard is hard coded, but Stalins orders to fight everywhere along the whole front are not coded. Historically the red army fought westward in different counterstrokes in 1941, if I remember correctly.
Runing east was not a option for Stalin, but there is no penalty for the russian side in the game to disobey these orders. A different level of freedom for both game opponents.
At the end, WITE "feels" not right, as far as I can say.

[Panzeh]

One of the problems, I think, in WitE is the low level of variance in the combat. In WitP you can get lucky and catch TFs unaware, and generally have give-and-take battles where even the weaker side can eke out victories. If WitP were all land combat, it would be terrible, just look at China. China is weak and can't hang on, which historically they were able to do. Instead their army is locked, basically by predjudices about Ichi-Go.

WitE is all bulldozer action. They have no suspense in the land battles, either one side is bulldozing, or the other side is bulldozing. If the Soviets had to fight in 1941 it wouldn't fix anything, it would just make it really boring to play, because nothing they do in combat matters since their combat values are so poor. They can't even hurt the Germans appreciably before the blizzard. Then the Blizzard, a low-jack solution lets them fight again for a little bit, then the Germans get their last push against poor CV Soviets before they proceed to get steamrolled for the rest of the game. It's a boring formula.

[Flaviusx]

The combat model is incredibly variable, actually, and has been known to drive people crazy as a result. At the tactical level weird and unexpected things happen.

That being said, at the operational level and up...yeah. I've long thought the game system is highly biased in favor of the offense.

[sj80]

I play WITE and WITPAE as Axis, but at the moment WITE with a greater intensity.
Playing the Japs in AE is definitly more fun than Germany in WITE. The reason is simple: The player has the free choice. You can control everything and increase your combat power (pilot training, aircraft production, industry management,...). The weaker side has in AE a real chance to change history, thats how fun is defined.
In WITE everything is fix, you will have historical withdrawels, no production control ... all discussed in the forums.
WITE has a closed front line from north to south. AE consists of several areas (china, Rangoon, Northern Australia, Pacific islands, ...) Within these areas the Japs can have local superiority in mid/late war with Kido Butai (Jap carrier fleet) and enough land based aircraft. In WITE the Germans don't have such option after the game shifts towards Sovjet side. Every Sovjet human player will shift his forces to react to German panzers. Best example is the 1943 Kursk offensive ... 80% of the units are frozen at scenario start to have a chance to create local superiority for some weeks.

WITE is much younger than WITP(AE) and we will see WITW 43-45 in future with many new game mechanics (better air war, ...). But I think WITW won't be much fun for the German side. Production control for Germany? I don't think we will get this. Better air war? I don't think Germany will have a suplus from it with 1 Messerschmitt against 100 Mustangs. Switch map units to SU and back? I have only read this about some USA Cav. Local superiority like in the Ardennes? Not possible in a game with a closed front line and against overwhelming forces ... So I don't expect much fun for the German side in WITW.
sj80

[Aurelian]

ORIGINAL: Meteor2


. Blizzard is hard coded, but Stalins orders to fight everywhere along the whole front are not coded. Historically the red army fought westward in different counterstrokes in 1941, if I remember correctly.
Runing east was not a option for Stalin, but there is no penalty for the russian side in the game to disobey these orders. A different level of freedom for both game opponents.
At the end, WITE "feels" not right, as far as I can say.

Hitler's orders are not hard coded either. Yes, the Red Army did launch counterstrokes, when the Germans gave them openings. Something no competent Axis player would do. Nor is there any penalty for the German ignoring Hitler's "Where a German soldier stands he will not retreat" order. Or taking Leningrad against orders.

[gradenko2k]

EDIT: I'd also like to put forward the idea that WITP's Japanese endgame is more interesting than WITE's German endgame in terms of being able to deliver bloody noses and stinging (albeit temporary) defeats to the monster bearing down on you.

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
The freedom to build your own Red Army in this game is something of an illusion. I have it on good authority that nobody in this game has managed to build a Red Army as large as the historical one in terms of formations -- this suggests to me that the Soviet Union is rather AP starved.

Doesn't this imply that the historical Red Army isn't "optimal" in the context of WITE?