Payback - jzanes (A) vs. Rader (J). A Rader-free zone.

[obvert]

We've both had our share of grumbling over this long long match. I've given in on some things I thought were wonky and I suspect he'll continue to play despite these issues that he disagrees with me on. In the end, I gotta recognize and appreciate that it's a rare pairing of WITP opponents that goes this far without one of the players getting crushed, losing interest, or blowing his top completely.

The one that got me in the beginning was the river landing at Khomsomolsk. It' just not right (like the mostly agreed upon rule of not passing Singapore before it falls with a massive fleet) to think all of those ships might have slipped by over the hours it would've taken them to pass the mouth of the river without anyone in the fort taking a shot at them. But Rader seems to be the ultimate extreme of a 'gamer' rather than a 'simulator.' If there is a way to take advantage of the system he will find it and try to use it.

It does seem rare to get this far in a game, but I would hope that by this time there would be so much mutual respect that the issues of game play would lessen. Maybe that's wishful thinking.

[Jzanes]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

What really has umnbalanced your game, imho, is the fact that Russia, gets no air replacements till 1944...this was clearly designed when a japanese invasion of Russia in 1942 wasn't taken into a spectrum of the possible outcomes of a Pbem.
If you had some kind of russian a/c replacements (Mig1, LaaG 3, Mig 3 etc etc) you could have agreed on an HR limiting the presence of american planes over russian territory. But you had to lose the air war in Russia, and thus the 42/43 campaign, because Japan could exploit this flaw in the design, so i think it's correct that you don't agree on a new HR about that.

I think this aspect (air russian replacements) must be taken into consideration by the devs...

And the only way to protect your troops in the open is to advance with a HUGE portion of your AAs...which severly limits your ability to use multiple corps/vectors

You are quite right about the devs needing to look at Russia. In addition to there not being any air replacements before 1944, there are also no tank replacements till then. I think there needs to be a houserule saying no invasions of Russia till 1944 the way it is now.

Re: massed AA for protection in the open. I have lots of AA units marching to the front but they are lagging behind the combat units and I don't wanna hold up my advance for even a day and let Rader firm up a new defense. I'll be using massed fighters on LR CAP to provide some protection for now. The advanced japanese fighters will probably slaughter the various Yaks but the other russian fighters should be able to provide some challenge and the american mustangs and the russian P-63s should provide a lotta challenge for the sweeping japanese.

[Jzanes]

ORIGINAL: obvert

We've both had our share of grumbling over this long long match. I've given in on some things I thought were wonky and I suspect he'll continue to play despite these issues that he disagrees with me on. In the end, I gotta recognize and appreciate that it's a rare pairing of WITP opponents that goes this far without one of the players getting crushed, losing interest, or blowing his top completely.

The one that got me in the beginning was the river landing at Khomsomolsk. It' just not right (like the mostly agreed upon rule of not passing Singapore before it falls with a massive fleet) to think all of those ships might have slipped by over the hours it would've taken them to pass the mouth of the river without anyone in the fort taking a shot at them. But Rader seems to be the ultimate extreme of a 'gamer' rather than a 'simulator.' If there is a way to take advantage of the system he will find it and try to use it.

It does seem rare to get this far in a game, but I would hope that by this time there would be so much mutual respect that the issues of game play would lessen. Maybe that's wishful thinking.

Yeah, that landing 600 miles upriver was definately very gamey. Luckily, Rader hasn't tried anything nearly as gamey as that since and we've been able to sort out some decent houserules when various gamey things have come up. A good example is the establishment of our night bomber houserule. Rader had been night bombing some of my bases for a few turns and when I did the same with 200 heavy bombers and smashed a key japanese airfield, he suddenly decided a houserule was necessary. hehe.

[Smeulders]

ORIGINAL: Jzanes

ORIGINAL: obvert

We've both had our share of grumbling over this long long match. I've given in on some things I thought were wonky and I suspect he'll continue to play despite these issues that he disagrees with me on. In the end, I gotta recognize and appreciate that it's a rare pairing of WITP opponents that goes this far without one of the players getting crushed, losing interest, or blowing his top completely.

The one that got me in the beginning was the river landing at Khomsomolsk. It' just not right (like the mostly agreed upon rule of not passing Singapore before it falls with a massive fleet) to think all of those ships might have slipped by over the hours it would've taken them to pass the mouth of the river without anyone in the fort taking a shot at them. But Rader seems to be the ultimate extreme of a 'gamer' rather than a 'simulator.' If there is a way to take advantage of the system he will find it and try to use it.

It does seem rare to get this far in a game, but I would hope that by this time there would be so much mutual respect that the issues of game play would lessen. Maybe that's wishful thinking.

Yeah, that landing 600 miles upriver was definately very gamey. Luckily, Rader hasn't tried anything nearly as gamey as that since and we've been able to sort out some decent houserules when various gamey things have come up. A good example is the establishment of our night bomber houserule. Rader had been night bombing some of my bases for a few turns and when I did the same with 200 heavy bombers and smashed a key japanese airfield, he suddenly decided a houserule was necessary. hehe.

Isn't that the only HR you need on night bombing ? You can do it, as long as you accept the 4E will be flying in a night later.

[Jzanes]

I suppose but I'm afraid the end result would be night bombing in the pacific. All bombers would fly night missions every turn and they would only fly night missions. Not really the game I"m looking to play. Since the early days of the original WITP, I've never liked night bombing and have only used it after my opponent opened that pandora's box.

[Smeulders]

Likewise, if I would play as Japanes I'd make sure there is a HR. As I play Allies it isn't really needed, the point is made soon enough. If the Japanese keep using it... I'm not going to put up a HR to keep my opponent from making a bad move.

[Jzanes]

ORIGINAL: Smeulders

Likewise, if I would play as Japanes I'd make sure there is a HR. As I play Allies it isn't really needed, the point is made soon enough. If the Japanese keep using it... I'm not going to put up a HR to keep my opponent from making a bad move.

That's true. I'm sure Rader recognized the same thing which is why he asked for the HR after I took night bombing to a level the japanese couldn't hope to match. In the end, I'm ok with night bombing being highly restricted. I feel it's always been overpowered without any real counter. The kind of thing that messes up the game for me.

[Jzanes]

June 9, 1945

In the last 6 days, we’ve seen some clear signs that there has been a dramatic change in Japanese strategy. Enemy ground and air power is being withdrawn from the frontlines at a rapid pace. Large #s of Japanese ships are moving to pickup various garrisons throughout the warzone. I will detail these movements region by region.

I suspect Rader has two intentions;

1. Form a shorter and stronger defense line around the home islands.
2. Commit large #s of troops and planes to the Russian front in an attempt to stop the Russians before they overrun all of Manchuria, Korea, and Northern China.

My aim is to speed up my operations and grab all the empty ground Rader is leaving while also trying to penetrate his new line before it can “firm up”. I also will be trying to attack his various withdrawal operations hoping to attrit his navy and ground forces while they are exposed.

Here’s the current scoreboard.

[Jzanes]

(June 9, 1945 con’t)

And the overall map.

[Jzanes]

(June 9, 1945 con’t)

Russia:

The main Russian army continues to surge into the open south of Arshaan. The vanguard of two mech corps routed a multi division force in the open and is pursuing the retreating Japanese to the east. The Russian infantry is heading south down the road/rail towards Taonan.

As expected, Rader has been using bombers and Ki-83 sweepers to try to slow down and damage the Russians in the open. So far, he hasn’t done much damage and the 1000+ russo-american fighter force based at Arshaan is attriting his fighters and slaughtering his bombers. Meanwhile, the allied bombers are pounding his forces. For example, 150 B29s completely wiped out the brigade defending Skovorodino (forest hex) last turn allowing the paratroops to capture the base without any opposition. Rader hasn’t provided any CAP for his troops,

The Russian army advancing from Hailar has reached his blocking force which has been reinforced by the retreating Japanese “Chita” army. Neither one of us has enough strength to rout the other but I hope to hold him up long enough for the Arshaan tank force to cut the rail to the south and trap this huge Japanese army.

The 3rd Russian army has reached Mogocha in the north and should capture it next turn. Paratroops captured the next base down the line (Skovorodino) and I hope to advance down the rail line as fast as possible towards the Kuibyshevka area. No sign of any real Japanese forces in this region. Several divisions have been cutoff and surrounded to the rear around Shilka. They will be slowly pounded and whittled down by 2nd line Russian troops.

[Jzanes]

(June 9, 1945 con’t)

Russo-Chinese front:

The Japanese have abandoned Tolun and are quickly pulling back throughout the region. The Russians routed a multi-division rearguard north of Kalgan and they are looking into entering this city from the North while the Chinese drive on it from the West.

Further South, the Chinese moved some troops into the empty mountainous region east of Sian and are tentatively moving troops to fill in the hexes left empty by the retreating Japanese. I am hesitant to move into the open for fear of getting smashed by bombers or routed by a counterattack. The Chinese have no airbases along the front and not much of an airforce to draw upon.

No Japanese air opposition at all.

[Jzanes]

(June 9, 1945 con’t)

China:

More of the same with the Japanese pulling back from front lines they’ve held for 3+ years in some cases. The Chinese are crossing the river in force around Changsha and will do their best to finally raise the siege of this strategic city.

The Japanese also appear to be pulling back from the Indochina border but I will not pursue them into Indochina since I don’t wanna activate any “free” troops for the Japanese to use. I will invade Indochina only when the western allies are ready to overrun this area.

No Japanese air opposition at all.

[Jzanes]

(June 9, 1945 con’t)

British (Burma-Thailand):

Again the Japanese are in retreat. The British have made two major moves in the last week.

In the north, the Chinese captured Rahaeng which cutoff 1+ division to the NW and forced the 2 division force across the river west of Rahaeng to have to stop their river crossing and instead start marching thru the jungle to safety. My large British force has been attacking them the last few turns and I anticipate being able to rout them before they escape.

Further south, the british just landed several corps at Victoria point (VP) and should be able to grab the city next turn. The Royal Navy (including 5 heavy carriers and 10+ light/escort carriers) is massed in support but there has been no opposition. I don’t think Rader even spotted my fleet until they started landing. The fleet will pull back until the base is secured and then move in to finish unloading the troops and supplies. My aim is to capture VP then move east and hopefully bag some of the 900 AV Japanese force north of Chumpion before they can escape. I will dropping 1 ½ divisions of paratroops on Surat Thani next turn and if I capture that base, the entire Japanese VP/Chumpion force is doomed.

The large british naval bomber force is massed at Great Nicobar waiting to hit any Japanese ships that move up the Malacca strait from Singapore. At least a large chunk of the KB was sighted at Singapore last turn.

No Japanese air opposition at all.

[Jzanes]

(June 9, 1945 con’t)

British (Sumatra-Malaya):

Not much happening here (yet) but including a map to show one of the spots where it looks like the Japanese are evaccing their army with their navy. Here the Japanese appear to be abandoning north Sumatra.

The british/dutch sub force is setup to hit any ships moving up the Malacca strait. Large Japanese ASW TFs are covering the evac from Sumatra so I don’t think I’ll be able to interrupt this move quite yet.

Singapore appears to be the only place in the DEI/Malaya that Rader is still trying to defend with his airpower.

[Jzanes]

(June 9, 1945 con’t)

Americans (Java):

Again the Japanese appear to be evacuating the region. Several turns ago, the Americans pounded Palembang again and another round of naval bombardments of south Java destroyed several hundred more planes on the ground. Rader seems to have had enough and his airforce has mostly disappeared and most of his troops appear to be heading towards the Japanese evac fleet at Batavia.

The Americans have moved up their timetable and have grabbed Pamekasan with paratroops to act as a fighter base to help support moves on south Java. The island of Den Paser (20K Japanese garrison) was just invaded by 4 marine divisions and further landings in south Java will be going in during the next week. The American carrier force is standing by out of the danger zone and flying LR CAP to defend the amphibious fleet.

Java is where I hope to do some real damage vs. one of Rader’s evac operations. The sub force is moving to flood the seas around Batavia while several hundred naval bombers are flying long range missions from Sampit vs. shipping coming and going from Batavia. Hundreds of P47s sweep the Batavia area every turn but Rader has yet to try to CAP his evac fleet.

[Jzanes]

(June 9, 1945 con’t)

Americans (Borneo-Celebes-Mindanao):

Not much happening here but I have included a screenshot to show another potential Japanese evac op and a sudden mass of japanese subs moving into the region. I’ll be keeping my eyes on each of these movements and am setting up a nice ASW kill zone if Rader decides to send his subs down the Makassar strait.

[Jzanes]

(June 9, 1945 con’t)

Americans (Gilberts):

I invaded Tarawa a couple turns ago and got a real nasty bloody nose. I wasn’t patient enough to allow my troops to build up some prep (most brigades were only at around 20 prep for Tarawa) and it cost me thousands and thousands of casualties when the shock attack came out really bad (something like 1:9). The good news is that the troops are on the ground, no units were completely destroyed, supplies continue to be landed, and the troops are on the way to resting and rebuilding. I anticipate being able to deliberate attack in about a week.

This is a relief, since for a moment I was afraid that the Japanese would be able to counterattack and drive my troops into the ocean. Luckily, Rader didn’t attack after my landing and I’ve now regained enough strength to fight off a counterattack.

Tabiteau and CVE based SBDs/TBDs will pound Tarawa every turn hoping to weaken the Japanese garrison (about 1 div strong).

No Japanese air opposition at all.

[obvert]

For many of these evacuated troops it seems like the journey back to Manchuria and areas around the HI would be difficult now that you have a foothold on Borneo. Have you tried bombing any of the loading ports with your 4Es? If you damage the ports sufficiently it'll take forever for him to load troops and get them out. Since it's really a race against time slowing him down may be enough to win decisively in Russia and China.

[Jzanes]

ORIGINAL: obvert

For many of these evacuated troops it seems like the journey back to Manchuria and areas around the HI would be difficult now that you have a foothold on Borneo. Have you tried bombing any of the loading ports with your 4Es? If you damage the ports sufficiently it'll take forever for him to load troops and get them out. Since it's really a race against time slowing him down may be enough to win decisively in Russia and China.

An excellent idea and I had thought about it briefly while setting up last turn. Batavia (the Java evac point) port was badly damaged during a raid a few turns ago and I will go ahead and pound the others starting next turn. The medium bomber forces should be able to handle the 4E duties of airfield suppression for a bit.

[SoliInvictus202]

just a question to get a deeper understanding of your actions: - why are you invading the Gilberts in 45 when you are already in the DEI?

maybe you have already explaine above and I missed it - if so - please excuse!