Books on Eastern Front Logistic?

[Omat]

Hello

I would like to know if many players will be pleased when WitE merge with the game Railroad Tycoon [:)]

Omat

[Balou]

Reichsbahn Tycoon: making a fortune with zillions of Hiwis as cheap labor

[marty_01]

ORIGINAL: wosung

Really interesting! Thank you for posting this.

Is this map part of a publication?

regards

+1. That is an interesting map.

I am wondering how to interpret some of the symbology being employed on the figure. For example the supply head at Daugavpils. Is the heavy black line leading from the Polish Border to Daugavpils a rail line being employed by AGN for supply? Or is this a road being utilized for supply? If the former, than German railroad crews were repairing and converting track a lot more rapidly than in game FBD.

What does the symbol with the three horizontal lines and two circles (wheels) represent? Is that a symbol for truck transportation of supply -- or a symbol for rolling stock?

[marty_01]

As I recall N.Zetterling does include a schmattering of bits on ammunition utilization on the Eastern Front -- at least in his book on the Korsun Pocket. A number of years ago he sent me some data he had found on tank (panzer) ammunition expenditures by Kampgruppe Bake during it relief efforts. It's always rather enlightening to look at such figures as it gives an interesting perspective into the immense quantities\tonnage of ammuntion required by combat units.

The chart posted by Balou above is a pretty good and appears fairly consistent with other such figures I've come across over the years -- and perhaps even conservative in some respects. Yes, it represents averages based upon a particular TO&E. Typically the assumed TO&E will be footnoted or the like. The probem with calc'ing a per-head number from a per division is that understrength To&E often represents a reduced infantry strength. Artillery Strength -- which is a supply tonnage hog when it comes to ammunition expenditures -- may be close to 100% of paper strength even when infantry strength of a particular combat unit is below 50%.

[wosung]

ORIGINAL: marty_01

+1. That is an interesting map.

I am wondering how to interpret some of the symbology being employed on the figure. For example the supply head at Daugavpils. Is the heavy black line leading from the Polish Border to Daugavpils a rail line being employed by AGN for supply? Or is this a road being utilized for supply? If the former, than German railroad crews were repairing and converting track a lot more rapidly than in game FBD.

What does the symbol with the three horizontal lines and two circles (wheels) represent? Is that a symbol for truck transportation of supply -- or a symbol for rolling stock?

Arguably the heavy black line isn’t rail. There’s a nice toyish locomotive symbol with a thin line SW of Kaunas.

Rectangles or stripes with two small circles underneath =motorized units.
With one circle = mixed motorized
2 stripes with two small circles underneath is a 30 tons motor transport unit,
3 stripes = 60 tons.
The black gearwheel = maintenance unit.
Two crossed shovels, you surely know, is a construction unit.
A rectangle in a rectangle is a (vehicle) park.
Black rectangle flag = III (Reg.)
Black trinagle flag = II (Bat.)
Stripe with two small circles underneath,and an axe = butchery unit, motorized
Stripe with two small circles underneath,and a bread = bakery unit, motorized
+ = medical

Here you can find taktische Zeichen (tactical signs)
http://orbat.com/site/ww2/drleo/011_ger ... ls_39.html
http://orbat.com/site/ww2/drleo/011_ger ... ls_41.html
http://orbat.com/site/ww2/drleo/011_ger ... ls_43.html
http://orbat.com/site/ww2/drleo/011_ger ... 41-lw.html
http://orbat.com/site/ww2/drleo/011_ger ... gures.html

Regards

[marty_01]

ORIGINAL: wosung

Arguably the heavy black line isn’t rail. There’s a nice toyish locomotive symbol with a thin line SW of Kaunas.

Rectangles or stripes with two small circles underneath =motorized units.
With one circle = mixed motorized
2 stripes with two small circles underneath is a 30 tons motor transport unit,
3 stripes = 60 tons.
The black gearwheel = maintenance unit.
Two crossed shovels, you surely know, is a construction unit.
A rectangle in a rectangle is a (vehicle) park.
Black rectangle flag = III (Reg.)
Black trinagle flag = II (Bat.)
Stripe with two small circles underneath,and an axe = butchery unit, motorized
Stripe with two small circles underneath,and a bread = bakery unit, motorized
+ = medical

Here you can find taktische Zeichen (tactical signs)
http://orbat.com/site/ww2/drleo/011_ger ... ls_39.html
http://orbat.com/site/ww2/drleo/011_ger ... ls_41.html
http://orbat.com/site/ww2/drleo/011_ger ... ls_43.html
http://orbat.com/site/ww2/drleo/011_ger ... 41-lw.html
http://orbat.com/site/ww2/drleo/011_ger ... gures.html

Regards

Very good! Thanks.

[wosung]

ORIGINAL: marty_01

As I recall N.Zetterling does include a schmattering of bits on ammunition utilization on the Eastern Front -- at least in his book on the Korsun Pocket. A number of years ago he sent me some data he had found on tank (panzer) ammunition expenditures by Kampgruppe Bake during it relief efforts. It's always rather enlightening to look at such figures as it gives an interesting perspective into the immense quantities\tonnage of ammuntion required by combat units.

The chart posted by Balou above is a pretty good and appears fairly consistent with other such figures I've come across over the years -- and perhaps even conservative in some respects. Yes, it represents averages based upon a particular TO&E. Typically the assumed TO&E will be footnoted or the like. The probem with calc'ing a per-head number from a per division is that understrength To&E often represents a reduced infantry strength. Artillery Strength -- which is a supply tonnage hog when it comes to ammunition expenditures -- may be close to 100% of paper strength even when infantry strength of a particular combat unit is below 50%.

Not only the need of ammo is telling, but also the ammo consumption per ammo category. Apparently in the Wehrmacht mines & sticky charges in 1943 weren’t used as much as before – arguably training deficies & bad surviving chances in close quarter anti-tank warfare.7,5 cm Pak ammo in 1943 seems to have been used not in large quantities – arguably German Pak nests in 1943 had little chances to survive long.
For data and conclusions see: Germany in the Second World War, Vol. 5.2, pp. 639-647 (Chapter: Ammonition and fighting power).

Esp. the production of Flak ammo became a real sinkhole for German ressources during the war.

I also don’t think per-head number supply consumption is easy to do. There are so many factors.

Regards

[goranw]

Hi! OBS http://allworldwars.com/Comments-on-Rus ... -Bork.html
From COMMENTS ON RUSSIAN RAILROADS AND HIGHWAYS
By Gen. Lt. a.D, Max Bork
It could be downloaded with more maps and interesting text from the net.
2 maps showing the rate of repairing the Baltic rail lines.
Sorry for the quality.
Goran

[goranw]

Hi!
To relate to the maps above. Here is Start turn 5 17/7 of the Barbarossa scenario.
AI against AI. THe German offensive keeps in a very historical way up to the "timetable"
Compare with the frontlines 13/7 (yellow) on the date-frontline map.This is very good
and thats of course the main thing but the railway advance ( supply importance) doesnt keep up.
Look at the detailed OKH railway map.
The difference is big. In the game its quite impossible to keep up.
Ex first train to Pernau 12 july. To Rositten 10 july and to Pskow (Pleskau) 24 july.
Goran

[wosung]

ORIGINAL: goranw

Hi!
To relate to the maps above. Here is Start turn 5 17/7 of the Barbarossa scenario.
AI against AI. THe German offensive keeps in a very historical way up to the "timetable"
Compare with the frontlines 13/7 (yellow) on the date-frontline map.This is very good
and thats of course the main thing but the railway advance ( supply importance) doesnt keep up.
Look at the detailed OKH railway map.
The difference is big. In the game its quite impossible to keep up.
Ex first train to Pernau 12 july. To Rositten 10 july and to Pskow (Pleskau) 24 july.
Goran

Thank's again for posting those maps.
As for the "slow" WitE RR repair, compared to history:

-Do the schedule maps above show IRL repair progress or only the planning?
-Because RR track & (un)loading capacity etc. is not part of WiTE, arguably it might be difficult to model IRL railheads. Those didn't mean up to those farest points RR transport was perfect or even good.

Regards

[goranw]

Hi!
I think they show whats accomplished, not planned.
Goran

[Jeffrey H.]

ORIGINAL: goranw

Hi!
A map done by OKH.
Supplies delivered up to 2 july in area Nord.
Goran

This image is very intersting, I wonder has it been touched up a bit ? The line weights and penmenship are extremely regular or a hand written/drawn document. Perhaps during initial digitization some of the details were ironed out ?

[Jeffrey H.]

ORIGINAL: wosung

Not only the need of ammo is telling, but also the ammo consumption per ammo category. Apparently in the Wehrmacht mines & sticky charges in 1943 weren’t used as much as before – arguably training deficies & bad surviving chances in close quarter anti-tank warfare.7,5 cm Pak ammo in 1943 seems to have been used not in large quantities – arguably German Pak nests in 1943 had little chances to survive long.
For data and conclusions see: Germany in the Second World War, Vol. 5.2, pp. 639-647 (Chapter: Ammonition and fighting power).

Esp. the production of Flak ammo became a real sinkhole for German ressources during the war.

I also don’t think per-head number supply consumption is easy to do. There are so many factors.

Regards

For supporting information on a game of this scale and complexity, I would agrue that it's the only way to rationalize/normalize some of the avialable historical informaiton.

The game does track individual weapons and squads correct ? That would seem to me to be the basis of a realisitc supply and logistics model.

[marty_01]

ORIGINAL: goranw

Hi! OBS http://allworldwars.com/Comments-on-Rus ... -Bork.html
From COMMENTS ON RUSSIAN RAILROADS AND HIGHWAYS
By Gen. Lt. a.D, Max Bork
It could be downloaded with more maps and interesting text from the net.
2 maps showing the rate of repairing the Baltic rail lines.
Sorry for the quality.
Goran

Great Reference goranw. A great deal of interesting information -- to include the "First Train Arrived on such and such date" charts.

Thanks for posting the link.

[marty_01]

ORIGINAL: goranw

Hi!
To relate to the maps above. Here is Start turn 5 17/7 of the Barbarossa scenario.
AI against AI. THe German offensive keeps in a very historical way up to the "timetable"
Compare with the frontlines 13/7 (yellow) on the date-frontline map.This is very good
and thats of course the main thing but the railway advance ( supply importance) doesnt keep up.
Look at the detailed OKH railway map.
The difference is big. In the game its quite impossible to keep up.
Ex first train to Pernau 12 july. To Rositten 10 july and to Pskow (Pleskau) 24 july.
but the railway advance ( supply importance) doesnt keep up.

I agree and noticed the same thing when reviewing those "First Train Arrived" tables from the US-ARMY-Europe study. It implies that in-game FBD units are converting and repairing rail lines at a much slower pace than their historical counterparts.

However, the other aspect of importance is the repair times associated with major bridges destroyed by the Red Army engineers. Railway Bridges over major rivers were taking German Construction Engineers between 2 and 3 weeks to repair.

The Germans were ferrying trains across rivers while bridge repairs were occurring. This implies that the Germans were continuing to push rail conversion and repair via their FBD unit’s eastward beyond demolished bridges.

The Germans were also barging supplies up, down and across major water ways in an attempt to keep logistics flowing. This would imply at least double and even triple handling of all material (load\unload + load\unload + load\unload onto multiple conveyance systems). Of course these interim conduits along with double\triple handling of all material would have been significantly less efficient in moving supplies\fuel\ammunition across rivers relative to a train with unimpeded movement direct from Germany to a supply head.

Other aspects of interest include capture and reuse of Soviet locomotives and rolling stock over Soviet gauge track. Although this again would imply – at the very least – double handling of all supplies\fuel\ammunition.

[goranw]

ORIGINAL: marty_01

ORIGINAL: goranw

Hi!
To relate to the maps above. Here is Start turn 5 17/7 of the Barbarossa scenario.
AI against AI. THe German offensive keeps in a very historical way up to the "timetable"
Compare with the frontlines 13/7 (yellow) on the date-frontline map.This is very good
and thats of course the main thing but the railway advance ( supply importance) doesnt keep up.
Look at the detailed OKH railway map.
The difference is big. In the game its quite impossible to keep up.
Ex first train to Pernau 12 july. To Rositten 10 july and to Pskow (Pleskau) 24 july.
but the railway advance ( supply importance) doesnt keep up.

I agree and noticed the same thing when reviewing those "First Train Arrived" tables from the US-ARMY-Europe study. It implies that in-game FBD units are converting and repairing rail lines at a much slower pace than their historical counterparts.

However, the other aspect of importance is the repair times associated with major bridges destroyed by the Red Army engineers. Railway Bridges over major rivers were taking German Construction Engineers between 2 and 3 weeks to repair.

The Germans were ferrying trains across rivers while bridge repairs were occurring. This implies that the Germans were continuing to push rail conversion and repair via their FBD unit’s eastward beyond demolished bridges.

The Germans were also barging supplies up, down and across major water ways in an attempt to keep logistics flowing. This would imply at least double and even triple handling of all material (load\unload + load\unload + load\unload onto multiple conveyance systems). Of course these interim conduits along with double\triple handling of all material would have been significantly less efficient in moving supplies\fuel\ammunition across rivers relative to a train with unimpeded movement direct from Germany to a supply head.

Other aspects of interest include capture and reuse of Soviet locomotives and rolling stock over Soviet gauge track. Although this again would imply – at the very least – double handling of all supplies\fuel\ammunition.

Hi!
In this area the repair of bridges went quite quickly ,even across the few big rivers. (Otherwise with Dnjeper,Don ,Donetz etc)
See the map. Goran

[marty_01]

ORIGINAL: goranw

Hi!
In this area the repair of bridges went quite quickly ,even across the few big rivers. (Otherwise with Dnjeper,Don ,Donetz etc)
See the map. Goran

More very interesting material Goranw. Are you able to determine if some of the bridges on that last figure you posted were captured intact?

[Lieste]

It seems they are B and K bridges from bridging units - so doubtful, or rather if they were, they were suitable only for Panje and horse, not for military traffic...

[goranw]

ORIGINAL: marty_01

ORIGINAL: goranw

Hi!
In this area the repair of bridges went quite quickly ,even across the few big rivers. (Otherwise with Dnjeper,Don ,Donetz etc)
See the map. Goran

More very interesting material Goranw. Are you able to determine if some of the bridges on that last figure you posted were captured intact?

Hi!
These are my guessings;
The first thing is that only bridges with lenght from 20m are drawn.
The other thing is that its "schläge" = new construction of any kind.
Nothing about the reason for it. ( destroyed- damaged- not heavy enough)
If taken functionally enough= not on the map.
Goran

[wosung]

Title of the map is "Deployment of bridging staff Bruns (AGN) and bridge laying (over 20 m) in AGN's area of operations up to the river Duna..."

Depicted are activites of 4 units (BS Bruns, PzGr 4, 16. & 18 Army) in different colours
Symbols are
Bridge single tracked.
Bridge double tracked.
16tons war or combat bridge
8 tons makeshift bridge
+ 3x bridge laying activities by unit.

According to an entry on the map, apart from bridge laying and repairing, BS Bruns also assumed responsibility for bridge service and defense against drifting mines for the Duna bridges.

Manstein's 56th PzK. took RR bridge in Dunaburg on 26.6.1941. It was only lightly damaged.

Regards