JFB question: Failure to capture Palembang in '42

[Rusty1961]

Okay, I don't think my Japanese opponent can take Palembang from me until early '43.

He has launched two attacks against my "festung" and has about 1100AV to my-get this- 21,000 defensive AV (everyone has Palembang as their target and the x3 defense). His first attack cost him 11,000 KIA to my 1,000 and his next deliberate attack a week or so later cost him 5,000 to my 1,000. Of course, supplies aren't an issue for me.

Thus, given his push into Burma (he still hasn't taken Rangoon), I don't see him taking Palembang till he secures Burma.

My question is this: What impact on his economy and movement of units will he be subjected to given his failure to secure this vital piece of real estate?

He isn't doing any moving in China. We fought, bled, and withdrew to our respective lines. No change really since the beginning of the war.

And how can I take advantage of his postponing of his attack on Palembang with his new push in Burma.

Take care!

Rusty[:)]

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

Okay, I don't think my Japanese opponent can take Palembang from me until early '43.

He has launched two attacks against my "festung" and has about 1100AV to my-get this- 21,000 defensive AV (everyone has Palembang as their target and the x3 defense). His first attack cost him 11,000 KIA to my 1,000 and his next deliberate attack a week or so later cost him 5,000 to my 1,000. Of course, supplies aren't an issue for me.

Thus, given his push into Burma (he still hasn't taken Rangoon), I don't see him taking Palembang till he secures Burma.

My question is this: What impact on his economy and movement of units will he be subjected to given his failure to secure this vital piece of real estate?

He isn't doing any moving in China. We fought, bled, and withdrew to our respective lines. No change really since the beginning of the war.

And how can I take advantage of his postponing of his attack on Palembang with his new push in Burma.

Take care!

Rusty[:)]

Allies with 21,000 AV in early 1942? Where? I didn't think the Allies had that much AV on the entire board. [&:]

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

Okay, I don't think my Japanese opponent can take Palembang from me until early '43.

He has launched two attacks against my "festung" and has about 1100AV to my-get this- 21,000 defensive AV (everyone has Palembang as their target and the x3 defense). His first attack cost him 11,000 KIA to my 1,000 and his next deliberate attack a week or so later cost him 5,000 to my 1,000. Of course, supplies aren't an issue for me.

Thus, given his push into Burma (he still hasn't taken Rangoon), I don't see him taking Palembang till he secures Burma.

My question is this: What impact on his economy and movement of units will he be subjected to given his failure to secure this vital piece of real estate?

He isn't doing any moving in China. We fought, bled, and withdrew to our respective lines. No change really since the beginning of the war.

And how can I take advantage of his postponing of his attack on Palembang with his new push in Burma.

Take care!

Rusty[:)]

Allies with 21,000 AV in early 1942? Where? I didn't think the Allies had that much AV on the entire board. [&:]

Sorry. Didn't answer the original question: Without securing Palembang, he's done. He simply must have that oil and fuel before 1943.

The Japanese have-maybe-six months petroleum reserves in the home islands that they can fall back on. Balikpapan, Soerbaja and other production sites on Java (I assume he hasn't taken Java yet?), some other Sumatra ports, Magwe, Miri and Tarakan will help him stave off the inevitable somewhat, but he's got to have Palembang to make it past early 1943.

[DivePac88]

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

He has launched two attacks against my "festung" and has about 1100AV to my-get this- 21,000 defensive AV (everyone has Palembang as their target and the x3 defense).

So you have 7000AV, with 3 forts defending Palembang right? So the other bases on Sumatra and Java must be bare of troops. I would just Isolate you then roll you with a couple of divisions after Malaya is finished.

[ChezDaJez]

My question is this: What impact on his economy and movement of units will he be subjected to given his failure to secure this vital piece of real estate?

I am in this situation in my game against Canoerebel. He still holds southern Sumatra including Palembang, Padang, Benkolen and Oosthaven. The denial of the oil will hurt but at the moment Tarakan and Balikpapn coupled with numerous smaller oilfileds are meeting my needs. The part I am worried about is the severe restriction these forces have placed on my movements. I am that I am unable to disband any major surface units for repair in any port within 4e range of Oosthaven. I am severely restricted in what units I can operate near Sumatra. Anything larger than a DD generates unwanted attention. Muchof the SRA is denied to the Japanese player becasue of this.

Unfortunately I will never be able to take it because I simply do not have the land forces to overcome the 40+ land units at Palembang and Oosthave without stripping China, the SRA and Burma to the bone. I estimate that I would need upwards of 6000 AV and probably much more than that to dent the defense. Add to that the 400+ allied fighters and 200+ allied bombers that months of recon indicate are parked at Oosthaven and you end up with a fortress Sumatra that could never have existed in real life.

I have never encountered this tactic before and my hat is off to Canoerebel. It was a totally unexpected move. But it is one that I will develop a house rule for in future games. The house rule may either prohibit its use or simply remove any impediment to the Japanese player blitzing Sumatra before the fall of Singapore. This is not a gamey tactic as I do not consider it an exploit of the game mechanics. I do believe that it is so far removed from any historical possibility as to make it's real life WWII use a fantasy.

Chez

[JeffroK]

New HR

Allied players aren't allowed to.......................................................

You are playing a totally ahistorical scenario aren't you?

[Rusty1961]

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

But it is one that I will develop a house rule for in future games. The house rule may either prohibit its use or simply remove any impediment to the Japanese player blitzing Sumatra before the fall of Singapore. This is not a gamey tactic as I do not consider it an exploit of the game mechanics. I do believe that it is so far removed from any historical possibility as to make it's real life WWII use a fantasy.

Chez

You don't need a HR for this. As the Japanese there are at least to different tactics that can be used to prevent this.

[Rusty1961]

Allies with 21,000 AV in early 1942? Where? I didn't think the Allies had that much AV on the entire board.

The 21,000 is after all modifications have been added to the defense. Twice he's attacked and twice I've had an AV of 21,000. He's lost 16,000 men in total, so he's down a division in men.

[Alfred]

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

My question is this: What impact on his economy and movement of units will he be subjected to given his failure to secure this vital piece of real estate?

I am in this situation in my game against Canoerebel. He still holds southern Sumatra including Palembang, Padang, Benkolen and Oosthaven. The denial of the oil will hurt but at the moment Tarakan and Balikpapn coupled with numerous smaller oilfileds are meeting my needs. The part I am worried about is the severe restriction these forces have placed on my movements. I am that I am unable to disband any major surface units for repair in any port within 4e range of Oosthaven. I am severely restricted in what units I can operate near Sumatra. Anything larger than a DD generates unwanted attention. Muchof the SRA is denied to the Japanese player becasue of this.

Unfortunately I will never be able to take it because I simply do not have the land forces to overcome the 40+ land units at Palembang and Oosthave without stripping China, the SRA and Burma to the bone. I estimate that I would need upwards of 6000 AV and probably much more than that to dent the defense. Add to that the 400+ allied fighters and 200+ allied bombers that months of recon indicate are parked at Oosthaven and you end up with a fortress Sumatra that could never have existed in real life.

I have never encountered this tactic before and my hat is off to Canoerebel. It was a totally unexpected move. But it is one that I will develop a house rule for in future games. The house rule may either prohibit its use or simply remove any impediment to the Japanese player blitzing Sumatra before the fall of Singapore. This is not a gamey tactic as I do not consider it an exploit of the game mechanics. I do believe that it is so far removed from any historical possibility as to make it's real life WWII use a fantasy.

Chez

No need for a HR, the situation you face is largely self inflicted.

You were adament that you would not read the relevant AARs. There are AARs which discuss in great detail how to take advantage of an Allied festung Palembang commitment. Even in your own dormant AAR, where you placed strict conditions on the kind of advice you wanted, you were advised in general terms how to avoid the problem from getting out of hand.

Now the situation might be too late too retrieve. Based on your post there remains a basic question which you have not yet addressed. You say to dent the festung Palembang defences you would have to stripping other theatres to the bone. Yet you also lament about the difficulties caused by the festung Palembang. Well the question is really quite simple.

[center]Are these other theatres more important than Sumatra?[/center]

If the answer is in the affirmative, then carry on as you currently are. If the answer is in the negative, ie the overall health of the Japanese war effort is more adversely affected by the Allies retaining their current position in Sumatra, then you would be stripping to the bone the other theatres.

Bottom line, none of this requires a HR. As I said, the situation is largely self inflicted. Not a problem if you think there are more important objectives than eliminating the Allied position in Sumatra; not so benign if you believe Palembang is more important than the other objectives but refuse to allocate the resources to deal with Palembang.

Alfred

[1EyedJacks]

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

Allies with 21,000 AV in early 1942? Where? I didn't think the Allies had that much AV on the entire board.

The 21,000 is after all modifications have been added to the defense. Twice he's attacked and twice I've had an AV of 21,000. He's lost 16,000 men in total, so he's down a division in men.

16k of squads destroyed? Plus hvy losses in gunz? Do you have air superiority over Palembang? Just curious...

TTFN,

Mike

[Rainer79]

ORIGINAL: Puhis

I think this shows one of the drawback of the supply system. Palembang can self-support huge number of troops just because there's big refinery.

I guess men there have well oiled digestion...

Of course that refinery could be bombed into the ground to leave large numbers of allies starving.

Refinery capacity is not normally a bottle-neck of japanese production.

[LoBaron]

Fortress Palembang can and has to be avoided early in game. If it is already set up, whether you capture it or not, the troop investement
will hurt you so much that it will cost you months of the Grand Campaign. Its one of the best time buyers for the Allies.

The point where you realize you need massed troop concentration to get rid of Palembang its already too late.

That said, I think that if you do not read the forums all the time and shuffle through every more or less heated discussion, or read every
AAR in vincinity, chances are quite ok that you do not notice that danger in avance.

A HR is not neccesary if you know what can happen. You simply cut it off early and move in aggressively. Then the same strategy that favours the Allies
in case of success can end up in major CW/ABDA losses. Its a gamble for both sides.

On the other hand the ability to support a whole army by Palembang ressources alone is ahistorical, so if its ok to implement a HR against
low level HB attacks, why not against Fortress Palembang? Matter of tast IMHO...

[LoBaron]

Good point. Although it still might be something equally irritating to the Japanese player as redeploying huge armies to just conquer that
small rotten base. [:)]

[Puhis]

I think this shows one of the drawback of the supply system. Palembang can self-support huge number of troops just because there's big refinery.

I guess men there have well oiled digestion...

[Chris21wen]

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

...... or simply remove any impediment to the Japanese player blitzing Sumatra before the fall of Singapore.

Can I ask why the Japanese cannot do this?

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: Puhis

I think this shows one of the drawback of the supply system. Palembang can self-support huge number of troops just because there's big refinery.

I guess men there have well oiled digestion...

Indeed. And an oversight on my part. With hindsight, I would not have had refineries output any supply points - just fuel, and this is my recommendation for any modders out there.

Andrew

[Erkki]

In the betas from at least p8 and onwards refineries dont generate supply.

[LoBaron]

ORIGINAL: Erkki

In the betas from at least p8 and onwards refineries dont generate supply.

There goes Fortress Palembang. [&o]

[koniu]

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

ORIGINAL: Erkki

In the betas from at least p8 and onwards refineries dont generate supply.

There goes Fortress Palembang. [&o]

There goes Fortress Palembang.

I am playing q4 now and they still do. I am not remember in what version i have start my PBEM. There is an passibility that no supplies from refineries applies only for new games.

[n01487477]

ORIGINAL: Erkki

In the betas from at least p8 and onwards refineries dont generate supply.

This is wrong - they do unless you are playing an economic mod.
[edit]beaten by koniu
[edit2]I think Erkki is thinking about LI being able to be turned off. This is the change. Michael has no need to change this as it can be manipulated in the editor.