Best Tanks by Year?

jsaurman · Post by **jsaurman** » Wed Dec 27, 2000 1:29 am

Back in the SP1/SP2 days, someone made a great chart that I used all the time, it graded all the tanks for a certain year: A, B, C, or D. It was really useful when playing a country that I didn't know the equipment well, plus it helped me decide when to upgrade to the next level.

Would anyone like to help me recreate that type of chart for SPWAW 4.5? I would also like to index it by speed, and by armor and by firepower. (I.E. if I wanted to know in 1941, what the fastest tank for any country that had at least a 75mm gun, I could find that info quickly....)

john g · Post by **john g** » Wed Dec 27, 2000 1:55 am

Originally posted by jsaurman:
Back in the SP1/SP2 days, someone made a great chart that I used all the time, it graded all the tanks for a certain year: A, B, C, or D. It was really useful when playing a country that I didn't know the equipment well, plus it helped me decide when to upgrade to the next level.

Would anyone like to help me recreate that type of chart for SPWAW 4.5? I would also like to index it by speed, and by armor and by firepower. (I.E. if I wanted to know in 1941, what the fastest tank for any country that had at least a 75mm gun, I could find that info quickly....)

My selection criteria is different, for me the primary choice is the best armored tank, then penetration of main gun, then speed then amount of secondary armament. Surround your crew a thick steel cacoon and they will survive to fight on, if you choose with speed or firepower as your first sort criteria you end up with the equivalent of the battlecruisers at Jutland, eggshells armed with hammers, not armored knights pounding on each other with swords.

When I started a WWII campaign as the Germans I looked at the encyclopedia to pick out my armor upgrades before I started. That minimized the number of equipment changes I made and kept my experiance up. I purposely kept some obsolete equipment in use because a quantum leap in equipment was coming up, an example was the change from PzIII where I changed to the IIIj but then held on to them until the PZVIe were available. I then held on to those until the PZVIb were available, never putting any Panthers on the field.

That was the selection criteria for a campaign that never went to the Russian front. Against Russians I would have had to change my selections, so what your opponent fields against you makes a difference as to what you buy as well.

The upshot of this is that there is no simple "best" tank for each year, there isn't even a "best" tank for every job, sometimes you can use a specialty tank like the Ferd or sturmtiger and accomplish tasks that a platoon of panthers or tigers can't handle.

Even playing style comes into the choice, personally I would never take a Nashorn or su57 out there, too much gun for too little armor, both are great tank killers if they don't get shot back at, but are deathtraps if they are hit.
thanks, John.

Charles22 · Post by **Charles22** » Wed Dec 27, 2000 2:31 am

john g: I will frequently put my thinnest vehicles on a rear slope, then after the main units are engaging I will move it a hex forward and fire as many rounds as I think I can get away with, and still be able to get back to the hiding place. I believe the Nashorn would work perfectly for such a role, and though the thin-skinned units useage is usually one of inferior guns as well, the Nashorn would actually be a superior gun, so all it may need is one or two shots to toast something.

Major Destruction · Post by **Major Destruction** » Wed Dec 27, 2000 2:37 am

Notice also that the Nashorn has an excellent Fire Control rating. It is deadly when stationary, but can easily be damaged by a small round. A nashorn with no main gun optics is just another big target for your opponent.

Notice also that the ammo loadout may be a factor in your choice. Nashorns (or Ferds)engaged in heavy fighting need resupply often.

When choosing a tank, I often check the FC first, and then the cost. Generally, a more costly tank is a better tank.

Charles22 · Post by **Charles22** » Wed Dec 27, 2000 2:57 am

Major Destruction: You know why the the most expensive tanks just happen to be the most effective don't you?

jsaurman · Post by **jsaurman** » Wed Dec 27, 2000 3:31 am

Well, maybe everyone missed my point. I know the British, American and German, and USSR equipment pretty well, but if I want to play as some other country, I don't want to spend 45 minutes comparing equipment data. Lets take an example, Spain Vs France, 1939, hypothetical war... If I need some heavy tanks, which Spanish heavy tank is the best? Do they even have any Heavies??? Which recon tank is the fastest? Which is the best deal for the money? I don't always want the best, I want the BEST VALUE. Sometimes the absolute best is too expensive, and a greater quantity of the "B" grade tanks is better than a few of the "A" grade tanks if there is a big difference in price. I need to know quickly without messing with the encyclopedia for an hour before each battle. I need quick reference charts listing each countrys tanks, by speed, by firepower, by armor thickness, and a composite grade based on all three of those factors versus the price.

Am I out in left field or does everyone understand me???

bravo.john · Post by **bravo.john** » Wed Dec 27, 2000 12:19 pm

Originally posted by jsaurman:
I want the BEST VALUE. [...] I need quick reference charts listing each countrys tanks, by speed, by firepower, by armor thickness, and a composite grade based on all three of those factors versus the price.

Am I out in left field or does everyone understand me???[/B]

I understand you, I just don't know how anyone can manage your request. How can I make it as simple as you want, is 30mph wheeled better than 32mph tracked? Which is better a 75mm gun with a rate of fire of 7 and a fire control of 4, or a 50mm long gun with a rate of fire of 10 and a fire control of 3? Which is better a tank with a front turret armor of 80, a hull armor of 50 and a side armor of 40 or a tank with a turret armor of 75, a hull armor of 60 and a side armor of 35?

And as for composite against price? Go ahead and give a formula that determines this in an objective manner.

Charles22 · Post by **Charles22** » Wed Dec 27, 2000 8:15 pm

jsaurman: I figure the best thing you can do, is actually start a test campaign. When I was thinking of making an Axis Minor multi-national force against the Reds, I picked WWII campaign starting in 6/41 (as Germany), hit the nation button, and went through the tanks available for each nation that I wanted to comprise my force, rather quickly, which will show you only the stuff available for the period. If you want a broader outlook, you'll have to make phoney campaigns in this way for each period, or labor through the OOBS as you have been doing.

Daniel Oskar · Post by **Daniel Oskar** » Wed Dec 27, 2000 9:40 pm

[QUOTE]Originally posted by jsaurman:
Well, maybe everyone missed my point. I know the British, American and German, and USSR equipment pretty well, but if I want to play as some other country, I don't want to spend 45 minutes comparing equipment data...

I remember the table your'e thinking of, it was for the original Steel Panthers. I agree, it was a good piece of gear, but making one for SPWAW would be quite a challenge. The old armor values were just set numbers, now you would have to factor in slope, skirts, ect... More detail definitely makes for a better game, bit I think it would be real tough to assign the old A B C like before.

Tombstone · Post by **Tombstone** » Thu Dec 28, 2000 12:10 am

I'm a BIG fan of speed. I like vehicles with a killer gun and fast wheels. Armor is nice, but I'd trade side armor any day for speed. I like Panthers and T-34's. Hell, I even think Hellcat's are great.

Tomo

jsaurman · Post by **jsaurman** » Thu Dec 28, 2000 12:18 am

I agree with you all, it would be tough, but I like a challenge. I really need to find a way to get all the OOB info into an Excel spreadsheet. Most of the OOB editors will do that, but they dump EVERYTHING into the spreadsheet, and that is hundreds of "zero" values and parameters that do nothing.

Would anyone like to help me tackle this first project, or does anyone already have this info in a spreasheet form already?

Remember, this is not meant to be an end-all, be-all guide to weapons and armor in the game, it is just supposed to be a rough guide to narrow down the multitude of choices for a "newbee", or for an experienced player who is on a country he is not familiar with.

It will always be subject to argument, but that is not the point. I just want a helpful tool using my subjective opinions, some people will unfortunately will not find it useful at all. That however, will not stop me from trying...

JIM

Kluckenbill · Post by **Kluckenbill** » Thu Dec 28, 2000 2:29 am

I think this is a great idea. A few months ago I started to load all the pertinent data onto an Excel spreadsheet, then to devise a formula to calculate a value for the unit, based on it various data points. I even thought that I might have several values for a unit, based on the type of action expected (EG, if fighting infantry, place more value on lots of MGs and a big bore main gun, in defense, count armor and gun more than mobility, in offense, give somewhat more weight to mobility.) My goal was to compare my computed values to the actual unit costs in order to gain a sneaky advantage over my PBEM opponents.

Unfortunately, this turned out to be vastly more work than I bargained for so I gave it up, but I think it would be a useful tool. If someone can tell me where to download all the statistics in Excel format maybe I'll give it another try.

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Target, Cease Fire !

Larry Holt · Post by **Larry Holt** » Thu Dec 28, 2000 2:58 am

The original request was to rate tanks as in SP1. Some have said that this is subjective and it is but I don't think that the original SP considered subjective issues. I recall that the A tanks were those that were state of the art, first line tanks. So it did not try to consider if a 30mph wheeled was better than a 32mph tracked vehicle. It simply grouped tanks into first line, nearly first line, don't use unless you have to and obsolete.

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An old soldier but not yet a faded one.
OK, maybe just a bit faded.