Night bombing need a fix

[Barb]

Well in small numbers night bombing works similar to reality. So there is no problem with Night bombing with real number of planes. What is wrong is players use of planes.

As to allied heavy bombers shooting down many japanese fighter planes - I have a feeling the designers had "claimed" kills from reality misinterpreted as "confirmed" kills in game [:D]

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: Barb

Well in small numbers night bombing works similar to reality. So there is no problem with Night bombing with real number of planes. What is wrong is players use of planes.

As to allied heavy bombers shooting down many japanese fighter planes - I have a feeling the designers had "claimed" kills from reality misinterpreted as "confirmed" kills in game [:D]

It is my opponent who's complaining about these losses. There have also been losses at his bases. Perhaps he needs to think about the smarts of setting up large bomber bases (and naval bases) within range of my night bombing force. He has figured out that massing 10-12 carriers creates an air death star that nothing will attack.

[Banzan]

ORIGINAL: Erkki

Amusing how they dont hit a thing with their bombs(and its airfield attack, not ground, port or naval, 15 B-17s only scored 1 hit), but have no trouble shooting down the CAP. [:D]

Maybe i should use fighterpilots in bombers and try to kill the enemy fighters in air instead of on the ground [;)]

[FatR]

I have no major problem with effectiveness of night bombing against ground targets. It is super effective only against overstacked airfields with no night CAP.

However, I have a very big problem with effectiveness of bomber defensive fire in the night, mostly relevant to 4Es. If they are strong but manageable during the day, during the night they break the air combat model in half. Here's the resuls of 4Es flying against mainly my most elite squadrons for a 2-day turn:


Here's the combat reports:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Milne Bay , at 101,133

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid detected at 26 NM, estimated altitude 9,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 8 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2-N Rufe x 8
A6M3 Zero x 23
A6M3a Zero x 13



Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 3
B-17F Fortress x 4
B-24D Liberator x 7


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2-N Rufe: 1 destroyed
A6M3a Zero: 5 damaged
A6M3a Zero: 1 destroyed on ground
G4M1 Betty: 1 destroyed on ground

Allied aircraft losses
B-24D Liberator: 1 damaged



Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 9

Aircraft Attacking:
4 x B-17F Fortress bombing from 8000 feet
Airfield Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb
3 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 8000 feet
Airfield Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb
4 x B-24D Liberator bombing from 8000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
3 x B-24D Liberator bombing from 8000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
Chitose Ku S-1 with A6M3a Zero (8 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
8 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 20000
Raid is overhead
3rd Ku S-1 with A6M3 Zero (7 airborne, 16 on standby, 0 scrambling)
7 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 8000 and 20000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 10 minutes
5th Ku S-1 with A6M2-N Rufe (2 airborne, 6 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 6000 and 10000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 8 minutes
12th Ku S-1 with A6M3a Zero (5 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
5 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 20000
Raid is overhead



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Milne Bay , at 101,133

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid detected at 26 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 8 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2-N Rufe x 6
A6M3 Zero x 14
A6M3a Zero x 13



Allied aircraft
B-24D Liberator x 6


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2-N Rufe: 1 destroyed
A6M3 Zero: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
B-24D Liberator: 1 damaged



Aircraft Attacking:
6 x B-24D Liberator bombing from 8000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
Chitose Ku S-1 with A6M3a Zero (8 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
8 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 20000
Raid is overhead
3rd Ku S-1 with A6M3 Zero (14 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
14 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 20000
Raid is overhead
12th Ku S-1 with A6M3a Zero (5 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
5 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 20000
Raid is overhead
5th Ku S-1 with A6M2-N Rufe (6 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
6 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 15000
Raid is overhead

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Milne Bay , at 101,133

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid detected at 39 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 13 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2-N Rufe x 6
A6M3 Zero x 15
A6M3a Zero x 36



Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 8
B-17F Fortress x 6
B-24D Liberator x 3


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M3 Zero: 2 destroyed
A6M3a Zero: 3 destroyed, 2 damaged
A6M3a Zero: 1 destroyed on ground

Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress: 1 destroyed, 1 damaged
B-17F Fortress: 1 damaged
B-24D Liberator: 2 damaged



Runway hits 2

Aircraft Attacking:
6 x B-17F Fortress bombing from 8000 feet
Airfield Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb
7 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 8000 feet
Airfield Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb
3 x B-24D Liberator bombing from 8000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
Chitose Ku S-1 with A6M3a Zero (6 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
6 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 20000
Raid is overhead
Tainan Ku S-1 with A6M3a Zero (6 airborne, 18 on standby, 0 scrambling)
6 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 2000 and 20000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 5 minutes
3rd Ku S-1 with A6M3 Zero (3 airborne, 12 on standby, 0 scrambling)
3 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 6000 and 20000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 9 minutes
5th Ku S-1 with A6M2-N Rufe (2 airborne, 4 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters to 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 10 minutes
12th Ku S-1 with A6M3a Zero (6 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
6 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 20000
Raid is overhead



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Milne Bay , at 101,133

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid detected at 34 NM, estimated altitude 8,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2-N Rufe x 5
A6M3 Zero x 8
A6M3a Zero x 22



Allied aircraft
B-24D Liberator x 4


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M3a Zero: 2 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
B-24D Liberator: 2 damaged



Aircraft Attacking:
4 x B-24D Liberator bombing from 8000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
Chitose Ku S-1 with A6M3a Zero (6 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
6 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 20000
Raid is overhead
Tainan Ku S-1 with A6M3a Zero (13 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
13 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 20000
Raid is overhead
3rd Ku S-1 with A6M3 Zero (8 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
8 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 20000
Raid is overhead
5th Ku S-1 with A6M2-N Rufe (1 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters to 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 10 minutes
12th Ku S-1 with A6M3a Zero (3 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
3 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 20000
Raid is overhead

This is pretty much a standard result. I'm forced to make strategic concessions because 4E night bombing cannot be countered in any way, shape or form, as long as your opponent is careful about picking his airfields. Ki-45s are wiped out almost as easily, if you wonder. I also estimate that a 4E force of the size shown above will shut down a level 5 airfield with 100 engineers + 3 vehicles in 6-8 days unless it faces CAP, so just dispersing and accepting losses on ground is not possible.

[1EyedJacks]

ORIGINAL: FatR

** I snipped out most of this - 1EyedJacks **

This is pretty much a standard result. I'm forced to make strategic concessions because 4E night bombing cannot be countered in any way, shape or form, as long as your opponent is careful about picking his airfields. Ki-45s are wiped out almost as easily, if you wonder. I also estimate that a 4E force of the size shown above will shut down a level 5 airfield with 100 engineers + 3 vehicles in 6-8 days unless it faces CAP, so just dispersing and accepting losses on ground is not possible.

Hey FatR,

I notice that your CAP is never below 15k but the 4Es are coming in at 8k... Would you notice better defensive results at night if you CAP at 10k? And October of 42 - you don't have a night fighter available yet... I wonder if a night fighter aircraft would improve your defensive results...

Another question I have is AA LCU - do you have any at a base that's regularly attacked?

In truth I hate the 4E model - both day and night. If fighters come at bombers with an altitude advantage and 20mm gunz they should do better at taking down the 4E or at least driving them away from their intended bombing run.

I wonder if tieing airgroup experience to the morale check in air combat that causes aircraft to break away/run might help out with the combat model as it pertains to 4E bombers. And adding fighter escort should have a positive effect to 4E performing a successful attack or at least completing their bombing run.

Just my 2 cents,

Mike

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: 1EyedJacks
If fighters come at bombers with an altitude advantage and 20mm gunz they should do better ... at least driving them away from their intended bombing run.

+1

Rarely, if ever, do I see 4E aborting bomb runs. Even with 3:1 fighters.

[Crackaces]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: 1EyedJacks
If fighters come at bombers with an altitude advantage and 20mm gunz they should do better ... at least driving them away from their intended bombing run.

+1

Rarely, if ever, do I see 4E aborting bomb runs. Even with 3:1 fighters.

Rarely if ever do I see the hundreds of Zeros, Val's and Kate's abort bomb runs ... [;)]

[Erkki]

To be honest I dont really mind the damage they are doing - they do carry a lot of bombs after all. What I hate the most about them is how each of them is about as dangerous as 2-3 of the best Allied fighters pretty much regardless of game date... 1:1 numbers against CAP and losses are likely to be 2:1 for bombers' advantage or worse even with elite Zero pilots. Thats pretty far from how 4Es or any WW2 bombers performed against fighters in reality that werent biplanes(such as B-534s, and even those didnt get shot down by B-24s the one time those planes faced each other[;)]).

At least the Allies don't get more than around 360, in total, available during 41 and 42...

edit: BTW anyone ever seen a Japanese bomber shoot down a fighter? I've seen G4Ms hit P-40s twice, neither damaged enough to abort, though...

[Crackaces]

Right now I go between completely aborting to stomping buttt .. nothing in between agaisnt Nelll's, Betty's and Lilly's and 60 - 70+ Brit Hurricane Trop III's. No bombers have killed an airplane yet as you ask ..

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: 1EyedJacks
If fighters come at bombers with an altitude advantage and 20mm gunz they should do better ... at least driving them away from their intended bombing run.

+1

Rarely, if ever, do I see 4E aborting bomb runs. Even with 3:1 fighters.

Rarely if ever do I see the hundreds of Zeros, Val's and Kate's abort bomb runs ... [;)]

From my game archives, just a couple of quick examples. one from each side to illustrate what I mean by abort ...

Pretty common for IJ. Here is an example:

Afternoon Air attack on Naha , at 95,66

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid detected at 25 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 8 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-49-Ia Helen x 8



Allied aircraft
P-47N Thunderbolt x 14
P-51H Mustang x 32


Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-49-Ia Helen: 1 destroyed

No Allied losses



CAP engaged:
49th Fighter Group with P-51H Mustang (3 airborne, 11 on standby, 0 scrambling)
3 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 6000 and 11000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 5 minutes
58th Fighter Group with P-47N Thunderbolt (3 airborne, 11 on standby, 0 scrambling)
3 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 9000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 7 minutes
475th Fighter Group with P-51H Mustang (4 airborne, 14 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 8000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 6 minutes

This is what you would expect to see .... unescorted bombers should bug out after losing 1 or 2 planes.

This is what I see commonly. 13 inbound 4E's are jumped by double the number of fighters, 8 are damaged and still ALL 13 4E's make their bomb run.

Night Air attack on Osaka/Kyoto , at 109,59

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid detected at 39 NM, estimated altitude 20,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes

Japanese aircraft
J1N1-S Irving x 8
N1K1 Rex x 2
Ki-46-III KAI Dinah x 15



Allied aircraft
B-29-25 Superfort x 13


No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
B-29-25 Superfort: 8 damaged



Manpower hits 1
Fires 40715

Aircraft Attacking:
13 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 15000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
Otsu Ku S-1 with N1K1 Rex (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 2 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 40 minutes
Endo Det with J1N1-S Irving (5 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
5 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 6 minutes
106th Sentai with Ki-46-III KAI Dinah (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 3 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 12 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 36 minutes

BTW: I was allies for this game. [;)]

[CV 2]

Well, 2 things to think about:

1) If bombing at night was as effective in the war as it is in the game, there would have been no reason for them to fly daytime missions. Yet the numbers of night missions, with the exception of the fire bombing raids, was minimal.

2) If 4E bombers were as effective against fighters and fighters as ineffective against 4E bombers in the real war as it is in the game, they never would have built a fighter.

In a game a while back I flew raids with the 7th bomb group out of Oz to New Guinea every single day (except the rare weather interrupt, which actually was rare), at max range for at least 4 months with 100% flying. I wracked up over 50 kills (not counting what was killed on the ground) for a total of 4 losses (3 of them were ops losses). Tell me this is "realistic". I need the laugh.

"Big week" for the 8th air force was 5 raids in a weeks time that exhausted their crews and machines to the point where they couldnt fly again for another week. If a 4E bomb group flew more than once every 3 days in the real war, it was a maximum effort. Something needs to be done to slow them down in the game. Maintenance level 4 does nothing btw on a level 9 airfield with 250+ av support, so dont even go there. Ive had 2500+ aircraft at Hiroshima on 100% training and all but a handful were operational every day after months of sitting there with varying maint levels from 1 to 4, so I know this to be true.

[Banzan]

I start to wonder if this problem belongs to the change of radar use in night-combat.
I have absolute zero problems driving of japanese bombers at night with the Fulmar in india. They rarly shoot down a bomber, but they damage lots of them and the bombers seldom bomb their target when engaged early enough.

Night Air attack on Akyab , at 54,45

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid spotted at 23 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 6 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-48-IIa Lily x 12

Allied aircraft
Fulmar II x 6

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-48-IIa Lily: 2 damaged
Ki-48-IIa Lily: 1 destroyed by flak

No Allied losses

Aircraft Attacking:
12 x Ki-48-IIa Lily bombing from 8000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 100 kg GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
No.803 Sqn FAA with Fulmar II (1 airborne, 3 on standby, 2 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters to 10000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 43 minutes


I think thats what you could expect correctly from nighfighting till you get the first real Nightfighters.

Now the same B17s on Port Moresby again, but at daylight:


Morning Air attack on Port Moresby , at 98,130

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid detected at 27 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 8 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2-N Rufe x 9



Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 23


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2-N Rufe: 1 destroyed
Ki-51 Sonia: 1 destroyed on ground
Ki-57-I Topsy: 1 destroyed on ground

Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress: 1 destroyed, 3 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
11 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled



Runway hits 8

Aircraft Attacking:
6 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 10000 feet
Airfield Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb
5 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 10000 feet
Airfield Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb
6 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 10000 feet
Airfield Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb
5 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 10000 feet
Airfield Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
Yokohama Ku S-1 with A6M2-N Rufe (1 airborne, 4 on standby, 4 scrambling)
5 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 12000 , scrambling fighters between 5000 and 9000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 22 minutes


As in the nighbombing example before, the "interception time" is longer then the time left till the bombers arrive at target. So the bombing results are ok, but now a single Rufe don't have much trouble hurting my B17s.


So in conclusion, i was thinking if the radar changes changed the way the bombers are handled by the game engine at night. A weak armed japanese bomber is still no threat, but a heavy armed allied 4E bomber is a killer now.

Will see if i can try some 2E bomber soon, to see how they are doing at night.

[CV 2]

Combat replay doesnt really mean a whole lot. Other than the bombing height, and the ordnance dropped, the remainder of it is pure fantasy.

[Itdepends]

I note that FatR has posted the aircraft losses screen from our PBEM above. For interest and fair disclosure (to him) here's my end of the same screen. I'm suprised at how similar the loss numbers are (I thought FOW might be a bit............foggier in this respect).

[CV 2]

Kill screens should match, or at least be very close. They tell you how many points you got from what. Its the combat replays that dont mean a hill of beans

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: CV 2

Kill screens should match, or at least be very close. They tell you how many points you got from what. Its the combat replays that dont mean a hill of beans

I do not beleive this to be correct, unless FOW is off.

[1EyedJacks]

ORIGINAL: Banzan

I start to wonder if this problem belongs to the change of radar use in night-combat.
I have absolute zero problems driving of japanese bombers at night with the Fulmar in india. They rarly shoot down a bomber, but they damage lots of them and the bombers seldom bomb their target when engaged early enough.

Night Air attack on Akyab , at 54,45

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid spotted at 23 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 6 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-48-IIa Lily x 12

Allied aircraft
Fulmar II x 6

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-48-IIa Lily: 2 damaged
Ki-48-IIa Lily: 1 destroyed by flak

No Allied losses

Aircraft Attacking:
12 x Ki-48-IIa Lily bombing from 8000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 100 kg GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
No.803 Sqn FAA with Fulmar II (1 airborne, 3 on standby, 2 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters to 10000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 43 minutes


I think thats what you could expect correctly from nighfighting till you get the first real Nightfighters. Now the same B17s on Port Moresby again, but at daylight:

What I would note here is the altitude. Your fighters are very close to the attacking bombers... I think the optimum intercept for fighters is an altitude advantage of 1-5k difference between them and the bombers. - 1EyedJacks

Morning Air attack on Port Moresby , at 98,130

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid detected at 27 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 8 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2-N Rufe x 9



Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 23


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2-N Rufe: 1 destroyed
Ki-51 Sonia: 1 destroyed on ground
Ki-57-I Topsy: 1 destroyed on ground

Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress: 1 destroyed, 3 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
11 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled



Runway hits 8

Aircraft Attacking:
6 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 10000 feet
Airfield Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb
5 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 10000 feet
Airfield Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb
6 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 10000 feet
Airfield Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb
5 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 10000 feet
Airfield Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
Yokohama Ku S-1 with A6M2-N Rufe (1 airborne, 4 on standby, 4 scrambling)
5 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 12000 , scrambling fighters between 5000 and 9000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 22 minutes


As in the nighbombing example before, the "interception time" is longer then the time left till the bombers arrive at target. So the bombing results are ok, but now a single Rufe don't have much trouble hurting my B17s.


So in conclusion, i was thinking if the radar changes changed the way the bombers are handled by the game engine at night. A weak armed japanese bomber is still no threat, but a heavy armed allied 4E bomber is a killer now.

Will see if i can try some 2E bomber soon, to see how they are doing at night.

I think because you were able to "dial in" your fighters to an altitude 1-5k above the bombers your fighters performed better than what FatR was showing in a previous post. And I think that if these were night fighters they'd have done somewhat better against the bombers. But what me & PaxMondo noted about 4E bombers rarely being driven from their target still holds true from what I've experienced. It just seems to me that even in a 4E air group, if you are attacking a target CAPed by fighters with 20mm gunz and they've got the bounce, an unescorted bomber group should abort the mission with greater frequancy then what I've seen in PBEM games. - 1EyedJacks

[Banzan]

Well, if you intercept the bombers after they reached their target, you won't disturb them on their bombing run. At least when the "time to target" and "time to reach interception" actually count in game mechanics.


If you check the Helen vs B-29 example:

8 Helens about 8 minutes away from target, defenders needed 5, 7 and 6 minutes to reach the bombers.
3x Mustangs, 3x Thunderbolts and another 4x Mustangs are actually attacking the bombers from above before they reach their target.

13 Superfortress about 12 minutes away from target, defenders need 40, 6 and 36 minutes to reach bombers.
Ku-S-1 is not attacking at all, Endo Det has 5 fighter intercepting and 3 being recalled and 106th Sentai has 3 fighters scrambling with 12 being recalled.

So only 5 J1N1 are attacking from 9000 feet, 6000 feet below the bombers and 3 Ki-46 KAI Dinah are coming up 24 minutes after the bombers finished their bombing run.


I guess the combat report always show the full amount of planes avaible, not only the actually "fighting" planes. This is pretty easy for the attacking planes as their are all just there, but its completly different for the defendig planes. A bit like the groundcombat reports in troops avaible and modified AV.


The very late detecting of raids seems to be (and should be) the major menace for the japanese.
Thats why i am really more concerned about the 4E bombers abilities to just shoot down/drive off the defenders at night.

It doesn't help to bring enough defenders as in the example from FatR. 7x B17s and 7x B24 get engaged by 8x A6M3a Zero from Chitose Ku S-1 and 5x A6M3a from 12th Ku S-1 and only damage one B-24 (7x A6M3 from 3rd Ku S-1 are coming 2 minutes too late, 2x A6M2-N Rufe reached the bombers while the bombing). That means 13x Zeros against 14x 4E bombers lead to one damaged bomber and maybe 5 damaged Zeros (can't see if damage on ground or in air).
And from there it gets worse.
All planes airborne (33) attack 6x B-24 and lose two planes while damaging one bomber again. At least they prevent the bombers from hitting anything. Next wave 17 heavy bombers get attacked from 23 fighters (34 fighters don't engage) and destroy 5 fighters and damage another two while losing one B-17 and another 4 bombers damaged. Only 2 ground hits, so raid is quite disrupted.
Last wave is 4x B-24 attacked by 31x defenders killing 2 zeros for two damaged B-24s. No ground hits.

[Barb]

Well one should say something about 41 heavy bombers attacking Milne Bay in 1942. And at Night! Allies were not able to do anything comparable in daylight for first half of 1943.

As CV2 said - I think that percentage for operational planes are MUCH higher in game than in reality - and with aboud 2-3 times as much sorties we see in game. Up till 1944 allies had approximately 70% of their planes operational - and this was for big and well developed bases. Later it came close to 80%. And yet they flew less then half of squadron strenght on combat mission. And not each day.

So if I could advice:
1. increase the repair time
2. increase the service ratings for planes
3. increase fatigue gain from missions
4. no bombers at night should benefit from common defensive fire (or combat box bonus)
5. bombers at night should abort missions because of not finding their targets - or have their bombs released with no effect - or target wrong hex (secondary target or complete miss)
6. night missions should generate even more fatigue than daylight missions
7. even heavy bombers should abort
8. common defensive fire (or combat box defensive bonus) for heavy bombers should be calculated only for formations of 9 (or 12) planes to 36 (or 54 planes). For larger formations it shouldn't increase as these were long and combat boxes were not so close to each other to provide mutual protection

[Richard III]

What versions of the game are you playing, babesliteXX + Beta or just base game ? I ask because in several games, I`ve never seen that many allied 4 engine bombers fly that size missions in `42 more then perhaps once, before it quickly tails off to a few flying.

Also, with all respect and IMHO, those recommendations would * seriously Nerf * the allied 4 engine bomber campaign, especially going into `43- `45.

ORIGINAL: Barb

Well one should say something about 41 heavy bombers attacking Milne Bay in 1942. And at Night! Allies were not able to do anything comparable in daylight for first half of 1943.

As CV2 said - I think that percentage for operational planes are MUCH higher in game than in reality - and with aboud 2-3 times as much sorties we see in game. Up till 1944 allies had approximately 70% of their planes operational - and this was for big and well developed bases. Later it came close to 80%. And yet they flew less then half of squadron strenght on combat mission. And not each day.

So if I could advice:
1. increase the repair time
2. increase the service ratings for planes
3. increase fatigue gain from missions
4. no bombers at night should benefit from common defensive fire (or combat box bonus)
5. bombers at night should abort missions because of not finding their targets - or have their bombs released with no effect - or target wrong hex (secondary target or complete miss)
6. night missions should generate even more fatigue than daylight missions
7. even heavy bombers should abort
8. common defensive fire (or combat box defensive bonus) for heavy bombers should be calculated only for formations of 9 (or 12) planes to 36 (or 54 planes). For larger formations it shouldn't increase as these were long and combat boxes were not so close to each other to provide mutual protection