Patch #2 Fixes/Changes

[fleischer]

Don't know what phoenix did, but it's certainly possible to execute regimental/divisional level attacks without it occurring. It seems the more complex the order is, the more likely it is to happen(i.e. not default settings, more than one waypoint, complex terrain etc.)

[Arjuna]

From what I am reading in this and other threads it seems that the most likely culprit is a formation lockup - ie a force that is moving stops for some reason ( usually because one unit has some issue and the rest of the units in the formation wait on it to get going ). What I need to help fix this are some saved games taken prior to the lockup ( preferably just before it happens ). If you have one of these ( and be sure to replay it and confirm that it locks up again ) please zip it and upload here. Thanks.

[Gandalf]

My apologies if as a newbie I've overlooked something...

Since it appears that a followup patch will be forthcoming to fix the formation stopping issues, would it be possible to expand the LOS tool function such that it could show the max line of sight in full daylight hours... (maybe in conjunction with a <Shift> key press?

Currently, if it's night time, it appears to only show the current LOS for those conditions. For planning purposes, it would be very useful to know if the chosen movement path might/might not become exposed to LOS when the lighting improves.

[RayWolfe]

You have overlooked something. This is a simulation not a game.
As a real commander, you can see what you can see. You also have a map with contours so that you may extrapolate to the daytime situation.
What you are asking for is a magic button that does not exist in real life.

Incidentally, your comment should be in it's own thread as it is mixing itself up with a different issue.

[springel]

ORIGINAL: RayWolfe

You have overlooked something. This is a simulation not a game.
As a real commander, you can see what you can see. You also have a map with contours so that you may extrapolate to the daytime situation.
What you are asking for is a magic button that does not exist in real life.

Incidentally, your comment should be in it's own thread as it is mixing itself up with a different issue.

I think you are harsh.

I have thought such a feature would be nice as well.

A real commander has assistants who can figure things out, so why deny the player such a useful tool.

I think the only problem is the limited time of the developer, who has to chose his priorities.

[johndoesecond]

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[Arjuna]

ORIGINAL: springel
I think the only problem is the limited time of the developer, who has to chose his priorities.

Well our limited availability for development work is certainly a factor. I can see merit in both your request and in RayWolfe's view. So perhaps this should be a game option rather than anautomatic feature. That way players in a multiplay game can agree on whether it should be in play or not. In any event, I will not be adding new features to the patch. So this will not get in this time. However, I will add it to our wish list for a future release.

[Gandalf]

deleted

[miya]

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

From what I am reading in this and other threads it seems that the most likely culprit is a formation lockup - ie a force that is moving stops for some reason ( usually because one unit has some issue and the rest of the units in the formation wait on it to get going ). What I need to help fix this are some saved games taken prior to the lockup ( preferably just before it happens ). If you have one of these ( and be sure to replay it and confirm that it locks up again ) please zip it and upload here. Thanks.

I think I found one formation lockup. A saved game is attached. Please change the ending of the file from txt to zip.
In the zip are two saved games, before and after.

the scenario: Battle of the roadblocks

Please look at the 1.3 Panzer battalion currently attacking Antoniushaff from the north.

I also noticed one other thing which is new and a bit disturbing. Now the weapon sounds seem not to work correct. Very often I see the units with that blue marker and there is no sound at all. This wasn't the case with the previous version of the game. Maybe someone else can confirm this.

[kipanderson]

Hi,

Crikey...!

Have not been around for a while but remain a fan and am very impressed by the list of changes. Was a good game anyway but the tweaks I most hoped for I see are now in. Retreating towards the enemy and excessive facing and deployment changes.

Real quality wargame... .

Congratulations on the work done for the patch....

All the best,
Kip.

[Arjuna]

Hi all,

I have checked out the saves ( thanks for these ) and have worked out the cause of the lockup. Suffice to say that it was a case of the code being too smart for its own good ( which is to say "oops I got that wrong" ).[:)] I have made a fix and tested it myself. I will release a replacement exe to the beta team and if they are good with it I will get Matrix to release an update.

[BletchleyGeek]

ORIGINAL: Arjuna
I have checked out the saves ( thanks for these ) and have worked out the cause of the lockup. Suffice to say that it was a case of the code being too smart for its own good ( which is to say "oops I got that wrong" ).[:)] I have made a fix and tested it myself. I will release a replacement exe to the beta team and if they are good with it I will get Matrix to release an update.

Well, I find the AI to be very smart already, so that has a lot of merit

Excellent news Arjuna, looking forward to the next patch!

PS: I wonder why you guys haven't been releasing beta patches as other Matrix projects have been doing (such as 2by3 with WitE). I think they're getting good feedback from the player base: since there'll be always more players than beta testers, it's very likely that someone tries something nobody has thought about before. In any case, beta patches are optional, so nobody is forced to "beta test" the game.

[GBS]

I finally ran into a force lockup this morning playing Manhay Crossroads. I asked 3rd Bn. to attack up the main highway to Manhay with a form up point in the clearing short of a woods line. They started out in good order but halted and deployed at the first recent but vague enemy contact. No one fired and they all four line units remained in that state for a couple of hours. I changed the order to move to Manhay with attacks and they started out again after the normal delay. I'll start it again later today and see if the same thing happens. Perhaps this will be fixed with the code change Dave mentions above.

[Arjuna]

In the save sent in by fliescher of the Hofen scenario there were two attacks - a full blooded attack by the 751 Regt and a probe by the rest of the Division. Now the 751st attack was halted due to a formation lockup, which I have since fixed. The Div probe was temporarily halted because the Div HQ ran out of fuel. It only starts with 25% fuel and it reached the 10% threshold at which the refuelling reassessment kicks in about half way to the FUP. It failed to get any resupply because the depot only started with 10% itself. Historically they were low on fuel but I think they need a tad more than this to start with. I gave the Div HQs 50% atStart fuel and it was able to complete the probe as ordered.

So I have asked Richard to revise the fuel settings in the scenarios to ensure that the Germans are not hamstrung from the get go.

[fleischer]

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

In the save sent in by fliescher of the Hofen scenario there were two attacks - a full blooded attack by the 751 Regt and a probe by the rest of the Division. Now the 751st attack was halted due to a formation lockup, which I have since fixed. The Div probe was temporarily halted because the Div HQ ran out of fuel. It only starts with 25% fuel and it reached the 10% threshold at which the refuelling reassessment kicks in about half way to the FUP. It failed to get any resupply because the depot only started with 10% itself. Historically they were low on fuel but I think they need a tad more than this to start with. I gave the Div HQs 50% atStart fuel and it was able to complete the probe as ordered.

So I have asked Richard to revise the fuel settings in the scenarios to ensure that the Germans are not hamstrung from the get go.

Does this mean that, by design, the whole formation will halt if the Div HQ runs out of fuel?

Good to hear that the formation lockup is fixed. Has the excessive fatigue issue been fixed with this too, or will units still increase their fatigue while being in a 'moving' state without actually moving? I realize there is an increase in fatigue due to patrolling etc., but the fatigue increases seen during these formation lockups seems unrelated to that. At least I would not assume a unit standing still should exhaust itself during a 10 hour period because of patrolling.

[BigDuke66]

Fatigue & state of moving is a good point, playing Hofen I saw the StuG Abteilung move till it switched to refueling, that seemed to take for ages and in the meantime it gathered fatigue.
Problem here was that fuel was down to 233 and I guess the unit waited for more fuel to arrive to actually do the refueling, but I'm not sure so does the unit really refuel or does it just wait till it gets fuel delivered?
If it really refuels then gaining fatigue would be OK but if the just sat there and waited for fuel to be delivered to them then they shouldn't have gained fatigue.

[Arjuna]

Unit refuelling do the following: request refuelling from their base, wait till it arrives and then refuel their vehicles.

Point of order regarding Defend and fatigue. Anyone who has served in a good infantry unit will tell you that defending is not passive. You don't sit around on your buts chewing the fat and having a rest. That is what Rest is for. No if the troops are not out patrolling then they are developing their defensive position, digging trenches, staking out fixed lines of fire, manning standing patrol and guard duty, cleaning kit, planning and rehearsing for the next patrol, move or whatever. In short they are very active and that is why they accrue fatigue.

[BigDuke66]

And what if the unit is finally dug-in will the fatigue gain slow down or even stop?
Defending may not be passive but if the majority of work is done then a CO would let the men rest except for some who stand guard.

[Arjuna]

Not in any unit I ever served in. Good commanders do not leave their troops idle.

Another way of looking at this is to measure how tired you get at the end of your working day ( I realise I am making an assumption here that you do work - please forgive me if this is not the case ). You are certainly not as frsh as when you started and this is true if you are doing manual labour or an office job. It's as much about mental as physical fatigue.

[fleischer]

My point wasn't in regard to fatigue and defend; when units defend they get about 50% fatigue during a day, which is fine. My point was that it seems that units increase their fatigue simply by being in a 'moving' state and not through actual movement. In the scenario I posted, the line units would completely exhaust themselves without moving at all. My question then is: is this related to the formation lockup bug, and do units increase their fatigue simply based on the state(i.e moving, halting)?

I think that fatigue levels gets way too high, and it seems that formation movement might be the culprit because formation movement involves a lot of stopping without (perhaps) the fatigue rate adjusting properly. At least that is my theory. In the Hofen-scenario, your formation will often have 50%+ fatigue at the start of the assault phase because of all the starting and stopping that is involved with formation movement. Moving single units around, however, does not involve any milling about, so the fatigue increase is much more accurate in that case.