No offense, just an exchange of ideas. Now, as I didn't remember that option, I just booted Fulda up to look for that option. Do you mean "Continuous Action" from the "setting" commands? I couldn't find "Fast AI" anywhere. If you meant "continuous action", it doesn't speed anything up, it just means you don't have to hit the "OK" button after every report. An improvement to be sure, but I still don't like the way the game plays out turns. Even with the sound off, it seems like it is pausing during op fires/defensive fires. I like how the SB games handle it in a faster manner, but understand it has less info to convey in it's reports.
Our points are equally valid, because they are preferences.
Why wargaming can never grow
Moderator: maddog986
-
SwampYankee68
- Posts: 611
- Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 9:37 am
- Location: Connecticut, U.S.
-
Les_the_Sarge_9_1
- Posts: 3943
- Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2000 10:00 am
I was going to say something like what Dave said, but that graphic outdoes whatever I might have said in spades.
Grognards have spoken, and what they said was, no damnit we DON'T want RTS or RTT or Continuous time or shooters or any of all that.
The people that want those things are the same people that DO want Command and Conquerish games.
You will get a mix of hybrids with any hobby. But it is time to fish or cut bait.
I just want my computer to allow me to play a board game conveniently.
I have played games by email. It has not been satisfying.
The person is somewhere else, in a different timezone, or differing workshedule or lifestyle or daily routine.
I know plenty of guys that play Everquest type games online and Battlefield 1942 type games online.
And not one of them would want you calling them a wargamer.
I am a wargamer.
I would not play Everquest if you provided me with a free account and free software. BF42 looks fun, but don't expect me to want to play it for several hours each day. Heck I don't even play Steel Panthers for more than a couple of turns at a time.
I have debated the merits of this game or that game till I have lost sight of why I would even care who won the arguement.
I am looking for the perfect mix of computer wargames.
Right now I have Steel Panthers for driving tanks around.
I have Operational Art of War (soon to be Century of Warfare when the mail arrives) for my operational gaming fix.
And I have Axis and Allies or Strategic Command for my grand strategy fix.
I would like to add Combat Leader, because I am thinking it will be a cleaned up tank game for me (Steel Panthers is great but it is still a patched up DOS game).
After that, I might never buy another computer wargame ever eh. There is only so many ways to make a wheel. After I have all these games, I might as well just accept that I own all I need and stop insisting I need more.
I can play ASL (the best wargame in existence by any judgement)via VASL.
I can play A3R via Warpplanner (the best grand strategy wargame out there).
With Century of Warfare I can mimic every board game I have to some extent.
All I want now, is evidence programmers are going to make software that has an AI that is actually as smart as my buddies.
A computer wargame, that is as difficult as my buddies, currently doesn't exist (in any mode).
So I could care less what your images look like and what the sounds sound like. I am not interested in your art full screen shots if the game is no challenge.
The game has to be the same as playing my buddies, or I will choose playing my buddies.
I recently played a Long Campaign in Steel Panthers. 43 battles later and 37 of them decisive victories, and at places like Stalingrad, tells me that even my beloved Steel Panthers falls far short of having a great AI.
The Mega Campaigns are a lot better first time round though.
Blah blah blah endless friggin speil.
Guys (you programmers), stop trying to make wargamers out of people that don't want to be wargamers. And stop trying to make grognards into mass market non wargamers.
And you hybrids, get off the bloody fence.
As Bush said, either you are with us, or you are against us.
Grognards have spoken, and what they said was, no damnit we DON'T want RTS or RTT or Continuous time or shooters or any of all that.
The people that want those things are the same people that DO want Command and Conquerish games.
You will get a mix of hybrids with any hobby. But it is time to fish or cut bait.
I just want my computer to allow me to play a board game conveniently.
I have played games by email. It has not been satisfying.
The person is somewhere else, in a different timezone, or differing workshedule or lifestyle or daily routine.
I know plenty of guys that play Everquest type games online and Battlefield 1942 type games online.
And not one of them would want you calling them a wargamer.
I am a wargamer.
I would not play Everquest if you provided me with a free account and free software. BF42 looks fun, but don't expect me to want to play it for several hours each day. Heck I don't even play Steel Panthers for more than a couple of turns at a time.
I have debated the merits of this game or that game till I have lost sight of why I would even care who won the arguement.
I am looking for the perfect mix of computer wargames.
Right now I have Steel Panthers for driving tanks around.
I have Operational Art of War (soon to be Century of Warfare when the mail arrives) for my operational gaming fix.
And I have Axis and Allies or Strategic Command for my grand strategy fix.
I would like to add Combat Leader, because I am thinking it will be a cleaned up tank game for me (Steel Panthers is great but it is still a patched up DOS game).
After that, I might never buy another computer wargame ever eh. There is only so many ways to make a wheel. After I have all these games, I might as well just accept that I own all I need and stop insisting I need more.
I can play ASL (the best wargame in existence by any judgement)via VASL.
I can play A3R via Warpplanner (the best grand strategy wargame out there).
With Century of Warfare I can mimic every board game I have to some extent.
All I want now, is evidence programmers are going to make software that has an AI that is actually as smart as my buddies.
A computer wargame, that is as difficult as my buddies, currently doesn't exist (in any mode).
So I could care less what your images look like and what the sounds sound like. I am not interested in your art full screen shots if the game is no challenge.
The game has to be the same as playing my buddies, or I will choose playing my buddies.
I recently played a Long Campaign in Steel Panthers. 43 battles later and 37 of them decisive victories, and at places like Stalingrad, tells me that even my beloved Steel Panthers falls far short of having a great AI.
The Mega Campaigns are a lot better first time round though.
Blah blah blah endless friggin speil.
Guys (you programmers), stop trying to make wargamers out of people that don't want to be wargamers. And stop trying to make grognards into mass market non wargamers.
And you hybrids, get off the bloody fence.
As Bush said, either you are with us, or you are against us.
I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.
Swamp_Yankee - take a look again under the menus. Don't have the game in font of me now, but believe it is under the menu with the other A/I settings. Believe it is at the bottom of the list and specifically says "Fast A/I". For a site that provides excellent support for HPS titles (and others too) check out http://theblitz.org
Al
-
SwampYankee68
- Posts: 611
- Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 9:37 am
- Location: Connecticut, U.S.
-
Les_the_Sarge_9_1
- Posts: 3943
- Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2000 10:00 am
I believe that this is yet another reason why wargaming will never grow....So there is little point trying to get rich off of me. I will only buy at best one computer game out of an entire years market potential.
Too many in the crowd like this unfortunately. Wargaming is not just a hobby for us. It's also a business for the other guy. If he isn't making money, then what use is their in continuing to make new games, whether for the board or the pc?
Reiryc
-
Marc von Martial
- Posts: 5292
- Joined: Thu Jan 04, 2001 4:00 pm
- Location: Bonn, Germany
- Contact:
Grognards have spoken, and what they said was, no damnit we DON'T want RTS or RTT or Continuous time or shooters or any of all that.
Ah, the Grognards have spoken :rolleyes: . I wonder when eyecandy is soooo disturbing why "Grognards" waste time painting miniatures , built nice dioramas, all that other "unnecessary" stuff. They could rather use a paper box that says "Tank" on it and another paper box that says "hedgerow". I wonder why Avalon Hill made such nice maps for ASL, They could rather sketched it roughly on grey paper. I wonder why they added such a nice rule book. I wonder why they didn´t use all the ressources they "wasted" with eyecandy and made some rules that you actually can manage to teach somebody in a few hours, and don´t have to sent him in a 2 weeks ASL boot camp.
Guys (you programmers), stop trying to make wargamers out of people that don't want to be wargamers. And stop trying to make grognards into mass market non wargamers.
And you hybrids, get off the bloody fence.
As Bush said, either you are with us, or you are against us.
What a load of crap, excuse me. But exactly this attitude will one day kill wargaming. Yes, also your beloved boardgaming. This excentric and elitist "I´m a real wargamer" , "I´m a real grognard" "All you others a just stupid flashbanger" stuff was and still is allways killing me. Give me a break. It proves me that you have no idea of the business. We only do wargames for the "real wargamergrognards" ? Okay, we can do, but then we will possible just release one game and after that look for a job that actually pays the bills. Hell, even now it doesn´t pay the bills. Pleasing both parties is the way to go.
programmers are going to make software that has an AI that is actually as smart as my buddies.
Not that I would mind a strong AI, but if somebody really manages to do this he wouldn´t end up making wargames
. He would probably ne in Stockholm now and receive the Nobel award.
-
BrubakerII
- Posts: 339
- Joined: Sun Sep 15, 2002 4:00 pm
- Location: Adelaide Australia
Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1
And you hybrids, get off the bloody fence.
As Bush said, either you are with us, or you are against us.
Hey Les that's pretty tough I reckon. I am one of those hybrids and don't see why that is a problem? I've played all the boardgames, grown up with SSG and Sid Meier's stuff on the C-64, so by some standards this makes me a tentative grog right? So now just because I own a $600 video card and have a penchant for pretty pictures created on it, I don't understand why it is too much to expect some use out of it
I think there have been some valid points made in this thread about why graphics in some games are sub-standard (from personal points of view), but to say a game doesn't need art in 2003 is like saying we don't need a telephone or the internet. I think for the community to expand, we definately need better graphics in our products, good online support and lots of younger players.
As far as what is important in a game, I don't think anyone here would deny that gameplay is the highest on the list, but surely in this day and age that is a given? Even a game doesn't have at least that it is not worth the discussion. Decent artwork then probably comes a close second in importance. Would you buy a car that drove like a mustang if it looked like a Fiat
Personally although I loath poor graphics I have tended to purchase some of these products anyway to support a company/publisher/developer etc. Of course not everyone would agree with this reasoning and that is a personal choice. But please lets not say games don't need artwork to succeed.
My 2 cents.
Brubaker
[8D] SSG Beta Tester [8D]
-
Les_the_Sarge_9_1
- Posts: 3943
- Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2000 10:00 am
Well to answer two points that were raised.
To say that people won't get rich off wargaming is not saying anything.
If I had the needed time (cause it takes a lot), and the needed skills (I can accept that I don't have the needed skills to publish even a board game), and the desire to raise the funds (because it is about cash to some extent), I still would only design and market a wargame just because I like them. I would never start out doing it to make a profit. I would only do it because it is a hobby interest.
Matrix is currently showing how to run a business if obvious indications are anything. You don't concentrate your efforts on just one way to make money.
I am not even remotely interested in suggesting Matrix pin all their hopes on one game at a time. It is a bad idea if a business is the end goal.
For this reason, I am not about to suggest they "hurry up and finish Combat Leader". Because the world doesn't revolve around Combat Leader of its fans.
But I am also not about to sympathise with any individual, that is trying to make a living off of Wargaming. There isn't now a market, and there never will be a market sufficient to make that anything but a foolish notion.
I can say that, because after 25+ years of wargaming, and 12 of that with computers in the equation, it has never once been a big market. There was no "glory days" where large unit sales were the norm.
So if the idea is to be a businessman, and I DO have business experience, then all I can say is, keep wargaming a hobby, and find something else to do to bring in the cash.
A business can do almost anything to bring in cash, and have wargaming as a sideline.
But because Wargaming is a small niche market now, and was a small niche market since it has been a market, I see no reason to assume it is in any danger if tomorrow wonder of wonders, it is still a small niche market.
5 years from now, it would not annoy me a bit, if Matrix was known for some cutting edge technology software that was barely connected with wargaming.
I won't begrudge Matrix in any way for making logical business choices, if the choices are about making money.
Matrix gave me a really nice fixed up game in the form of Steel Panthers WaW. They owe me nothing though. Why the heck would they though.
If tomorrow Matrix announced it was dumping wargaming altogether as it was just not profitable, I would wish them well. There would absolutely no ill feelings from this gamer.
Now on the subject of Grognards hehe, well I am happy to be one, and telling me what I am is silly, I already know.
Comparing a simple even if well drawn artwork mapboard in ASL with excessive graphics design in a computer game though is accomplishing nothing.
Comparing excessive graphics with the physical challenge of assembling a physical tank model is also equally silly. That's not apples and oranges, one is a fruit and the other is not even a plant by analogy. The comparison is pointless.
When you make a board game map, its finite, its drawn and then it remains. It is unchanging, and it can be used until hell freezes over. It doesn't get uprgraded, and it is not subject to the whim of technological advances. it is drawn as best as possible, then it remains.
The boards would function equally well if drawn with crayons though, I know, because I have drawn a few, and they work as well. But it is more fun using something drawn by a better artist.
With models hmmm, well there are myriad ways to make software wargames. Turn based RTS RTT Continuous tactical scale grand strategy. Lousy interfaces, awesome interfaces, large file sizes small file sizes. On cd on 3.5 even on 5.25 disks. Lousy graphics and graphics that don't know when to quit.
Models come in a box usually, and as a bunch of parts on a sprue tree usually, and are made out of plastic generally, although resin is out there was well. And you can assembly hasty or take your time. You can paint them or not. You can add decals or not. You can buy usually exceedingly expensive super detail parts if you are made out of cash, but most modellers won't use that stuff (even I can't say I can indulge that stuff realistically).
But through it all, a model will only look as good as you make it, and the challenge is to make it look acceptable, but most don't really care.
It's the most don't really care that is important here too.
Now I am sure this has been gawdaweful a tedious read, I will be surprised if most have made it this far.
Fact one, I AM a grognard, so if I say a grognard wants such and such a thing, it's worth remembering a grognard said it.
Fact two, I like board games more than any software wargames. That said, it is unlikely you will be able to add sufficient graphical thrill to matter to a grognard.
Because I am a grognard, and I just said so.
Fact three, if board games were indeed dying out as a hobby, then there would not be more board games being released.
And when I walk into a gaming store, I see new titles. Same small numbers, but we have already established why there are such small numbers. We are remember a niche market.
Fact four, if people were capable of saying that computer wargames were an improvement over board games, then people would not be insistent on making software to play board games on their computers.
I would rather play a proven board game online than any software wargame online in some cases. Because the board game in many cases appeals to the grognard in me more.
One reason that an ASL board can look as nice as it does, was because it was drawn with the aid of a computer. But in that case, the computer was just a publishing tool, it wasn't required to play the game.
I do not expect the graphics in ASL to go any further though, a static image can only go so far. The software used to draw them might get easier to use, but the end picture will be the same.
It's a pity this has not been applied to computer wargames. The hardware as gotten more powerful, but the games insistence on getting flashier and flashier, means that the power of the computer is being squandered on prettier pictures, while the game has remained the same.
I have Patton Strikes Back as one of my oldest computer wargames. It came on both 5.25 as well as 3.5 low density disks. Currently it is a puny data file I store on a cd.
It had a nicely drawn map, and the units were all just stylised arrows denoting current stance. I will stack that game up against anything just released on the market today.
And for once reason only, I have no reason to think anything today will be any more challenging to play. They might look prettier, and they might have nice looking animated images, but the game won't be any harder to beat.
That game came out about 1990. I personally don't think games have gotten any harder since. Only more expensive on my wallet, more demanding on my hardware, and larger in file size. But certainly not harder. And therefore certainly not better.
As a grognard, I will have just as much fun playing Patton's Strikes Back as I will playing Combat Leader. I might even use as much time executing a turn in each game.
One last thought here in my long winded ramble. Wargamers make wargamers, not wargames.
You will never make a non grognard a grognard with a pretty package.
can interest a person in a wargame regardless of how dull looking to an observer merely by making the experience appealing. Maybe that's just me, but I am after all a grognard, who better to make another a grognard than a grognard.
To say that people won't get rich off wargaming is not saying anything.
If I had the needed time (cause it takes a lot), and the needed skills (I can accept that I don't have the needed skills to publish even a board game), and the desire to raise the funds (because it is about cash to some extent), I still would only design and market a wargame just because I like them. I would never start out doing it to make a profit. I would only do it because it is a hobby interest.
Matrix is currently showing how to run a business if obvious indications are anything. You don't concentrate your efforts on just one way to make money.
I am not even remotely interested in suggesting Matrix pin all their hopes on one game at a time. It is a bad idea if a business is the end goal.
For this reason, I am not about to suggest they "hurry up and finish Combat Leader". Because the world doesn't revolve around Combat Leader of its fans.
But I am also not about to sympathise with any individual, that is trying to make a living off of Wargaming. There isn't now a market, and there never will be a market sufficient to make that anything but a foolish notion.
I can say that, because after 25+ years of wargaming, and 12 of that with computers in the equation, it has never once been a big market. There was no "glory days" where large unit sales were the norm.
So if the idea is to be a businessman, and I DO have business experience, then all I can say is, keep wargaming a hobby, and find something else to do to bring in the cash.
A business can do almost anything to bring in cash, and have wargaming as a sideline.
But because Wargaming is a small niche market now, and was a small niche market since it has been a market, I see no reason to assume it is in any danger if tomorrow wonder of wonders, it is still a small niche market.
5 years from now, it would not annoy me a bit, if Matrix was known for some cutting edge technology software that was barely connected with wargaming.
I won't begrudge Matrix in any way for making logical business choices, if the choices are about making money.
Matrix gave me a really nice fixed up game in the form of Steel Panthers WaW. They owe me nothing though. Why the heck would they though.
If tomorrow Matrix announced it was dumping wargaming altogether as it was just not profitable, I would wish them well. There would absolutely no ill feelings from this gamer.
Now on the subject of Grognards hehe, well I am happy to be one, and telling me what I am is silly, I already know.
Comparing a simple even if well drawn artwork mapboard in ASL with excessive graphics design in a computer game though is accomplishing nothing.
Comparing excessive graphics with the physical challenge of assembling a physical tank model is also equally silly. That's not apples and oranges, one is a fruit and the other is not even a plant by analogy. The comparison is pointless.
When you make a board game map, its finite, its drawn and then it remains. It is unchanging, and it can be used until hell freezes over. It doesn't get uprgraded, and it is not subject to the whim of technological advances. it is drawn as best as possible, then it remains.
The boards would function equally well if drawn with crayons though, I know, because I have drawn a few, and they work as well. But it is more fun using something drawn by a better artist.
With models hmmm, well there are myriad ways to make software wargames. Turn based RTS RTT Continuous tactical scale grand strategy. Lousy interfaces, awesome interfaces, large file sizes small file sizes. On cd on 3.5 even on 5.25 disks. Lousy graphics and graphics that don't know when to quit.
Models come in a box usually, and as a bunch of parts on a sprue tree usually, and are made out of plastic generally, although resin is out there was well. And you can assembly hasty or take your time. You can paint them or not. You can add decals or not. You can buy usually exceedingly expensive super detail parts if you are made out of cash, but most modellers won't use that stuff (even I can't say I can indulge that stuff realistically).
But through it all, a model will only look as good as you make it, and the challenge is to make it look acceptable, but most don't really care.
It's the most don't really care that is important here too.
Now I am sure this has been gawdaweful a tedious read, I will be surprised if most have made it this far.
Fact one, I AM a grognard, so if I say a grognard wants such and such a thing, it's worth remembering a grognard said it.
Fact two, I like board games more than any software wargames. That said, it is unlikely you will be able to add sufficient graphical thrill to matter to a grognard.
Because I am a grognard, and I just said so.
Fact three, if board games were indeed dying out as a hobby, then there would not be more board games being released.
And when I walk into a gaming store, I see new titles. Same small numbers, but we have already established why there are such small numbers. We are remember a niche market.
Fact four, if people were capable of saying that computer wargames were an improvement over board games, then people would not be insistent on making software to play board games on their computers.
I would rather play a proven board game online than any software wargame online in some cases. Because the board game in many cases appeals to the grognard in me more.
One reason that an ASL board can look as nice as it does, was because it was drawn with the aid of a computer. But in that case, the computer was just a publishing tool, it wasn't required to play the game.
I do not expect the graphics in ASL to go any further though, a static image can only go so far. The software used to draw them might get easier to use, but the end picture will be the same.
It's a pity this has not been applied to computer wargames. The hardware as gotten more powerful, but the games insistence on getting flashier and flashier, means that the power of the computer is being squandered on prettier pictures, while the game has remained the same.
I have Patton Strikes Back as one of my oldest computer wargames. It came on both 5.25 as well as 3.5 low density disks. Currently it is a puny data file I store on a cd.
It had a nicely drawn map, and the units were all just stylised arrows denoting current stance. I will stack that game up against anything just released on the market today.
And for once reason only, I have no reason to think anything today will be any more challenging to play. They might look prettier, and they might have nice looking animated images, but the game won't be any harder to beat.
That game came out about 1990. I personally don't think games have gotten any harder since. Only more expensive on my wallet, more demanding on my hardware, and larger in file size. But certainly not harder. And therefore certainly not better.
As a grognard, I will have just as much fun playing Patton's Strikes Back as I will playing Combat Leader. I might even use as much time executing a turn in each game.
One last thought here in my long winded ramble. Wargamers make wargamers, not wargames.
You will never make a non grognard a grognard with a pretty package.
can interest a person in a wargame regardless of how dull looking to an observer merely by making the experience appealing. Maybe that's just me, but I am after all a grognard, who better to make another a grognard than a grognard.
I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.
-
SwampYankee68
- Posts: 611
- Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 9:37 am
- Location: Connecticut, U.S.
Originally posted by Marc Schwanebeck
Ah, the Grognards have spoken :rolleyes: . I wonder when eyecandy is soooo disturbing why "Grognards" waste time painting miniatures , built nice dioramas, all that other "unnecessary" stuff. They could rather use a paper box that says "Tank" on it and another paper box that says "hedgerow". I wonder why Avalon Hill made such nice maps for ASL, They could rather sketched it roughly on grey paper. I wonder why they added such a nice rule book. I wonder why they didn´t use all the ressources they "wasted" with eyecandy and made some rules that you actually can manage to teach somebody in a few hours, and don´t have to sent him in a 2 weeks ASL boot camp.
What a load of crap, excuse me. But exactly this attitude will one day kill wargaming. Yes, also your beloved boardgaming. This excentric and elitist "I´m a real wargamer" , "I´m a real grognard" "All you others a just stupid flashbanger" stuff was and still is allways killing me. Give me a break. It proves me that you have no idea of the business. We only do wargames for the "real wargamergrognards" ? Okay, we can do, but then we will possible just release one game and after that look for a job that actually pays the bills. Hell, even now it doesn´t pay the bills. Pleasing both parties is the way to go.
Well said, and I agree. You can't survive selling niche games. I want Graphics and gameplay, if I can get the graphics without giving up the gameplay.
"The only way I got to keep them Tigers busy is to let them shoot holes in me!"
-
Marc von Martial
- Posts: 5292
- Joined: Thu Jan 04, 2001 4:00 pm
- Location: Bonn, Germany
- Contact:
Les, most of you longbreathed monolog shows me that you don´t really see the points here.
How stated that? My reference to "paying bills" was in a totally different context. A context that you didn´t get which proofs the following line:
My point was, that if we would do games that appeal to the "grognards artistic demands" (as defined by you, who speaks for them grognards), we would end up doing one (as in "single") game and after that pack our stuff and look for another way to pay a part of our bills. What simply means, we wouldn´t earn ****. But then earning money is necessary to keep for example this wonderfull forum running (server costs, bandwith etc. etc.), it is necessary to buy software to actually be able to make games, it is necessary to buy reference material and pile up a library of military books. Etc. etc.
I think you don´t have the slightest idea what is involved in developing a game. If that would be the credo then there would be no wargames. Well maybe there would be a few released, every 5 or so years maybe.
Yea right :rolleyes: . I wonder where you made that up. The only thing different is the medium, that´s it.
Huh
, what´s the difference to CG grpahics here.
So what´s the news here and what´s your point actually?
What or who made you one? Do you have a grognard diploma? Does playing boardgames or all you so often stressed "experience" make you one? Did you visit a grognard school or so? No, you label yourself a grognard and then have the arrogance to speak "for all grognards". You´re quick in using the "most" word and assuming things from hear say. Sorry, but that´s they way I feel here.
I never sayed that board gaming is dying, god beware, what I sayed is that your attitude (the elitist and arogance part I refered too in my previous post) will eventually lead to kill this our hobby.
Nobody sayed that. But you can get "not yet-wargamers" to buy the game by appealing and nice graphics. This person might be a "flashbang kid" that is only lured in by the awesome Tiger on the box and some pretty explosions on the screenshots, but he might lick blood and get interested in the hobby of so called "serious" wargaming. Buying more "serious" wargames, becoming interested in military history even. Eventually it will lead him to become a "grognard" some day. One can just pray not one of your kind. See my point ???
Actually, yes, you´re one. You have all the characteristics. Bitching, whinning, ranting, "soap boxing" and allways right and never wrong
To say that people won't get rich off wargaming is not saying anything.
How stated that? My reference to "paying bills" was in a totally different context. A context that you didn´t get which proofs the following line:
I am not even remotely interested in suggesting Matrix pin all their hopes on one game at a time.
My point was, that if we would do games that appeal to the "grognards artistic demands" (as defined by you, who speaks for them grognards), we would end up doing one (as in "single") game and after that pack our stuff and look for another way to pay a part of our bills. What simply means, we wouldn´t earn ****. But then earning money is necessary to keep for example this wonderfull forum running (server costs, bandwith etc. etc.), it is necessary to buy software to actually be able to make games, it is necessary to buy reference material and pile up a library of military books. Etc. etc.
There are actually people that make a living of it. They don´t get rich, but they can live from it.But I am also not about to sympathise with any individual, that is trying to make a living off of Wargaming. There isn't now a market, and there never will be a market sufficient to make that anything but a foolish notion.
I can say that, because after 25+ years of wargaming, and 12 of that with computers in the equation, it has never once been a big market. There was no "glory days" where large unit sales were the norm.
So if the idea is to be a businessman, and I DO have business experience, then all I can say is, keep wargaming a hobby, and find something else to do to bring in the cash. A business can do almost anything to bring in cash, and have wargaming as a sideline.
I think you don´t have the slightest idea what is involved in developing a game. If that would be the credo then there would be no wargames. Well maybe there would be a few released, every 5 or so years maybe.
Comparing a simple even if well drawn artwork mapboard in ASL with excessive graphics design in a computer game though is accomplishing nothing. Comparing excessive graphics with the physical challenge of assembling a physical tank model is also equally silly. That's not apples and oranges, one is a fruit and the other is not even a plant by analogy. The comparison is pointless.
Yea right :rolleyes: . I wonder where you made that up. The only thing different is the medium, that´s it.
When you make a board game map, its finite, its drawn and then it remains. It is unchanging, and it can be used until hell freezes over. It doesn't get uprgraded, and it is not subject to the whim of technological advances. it is drawn as best as possible, then it remains. The boards would function equally well if drawn with crayons though, I know, because I have drawn a few, and they work as well. But it is more fun using something drawn by a better artist.
Huh
, what´s the difference to CG grpahics here.With models hmmm, well there are myriad ways to make software wargames. Turn based RTS RTT Continuous tactical scale grand strategy. Lousy interfaces, awesome interfaces, large file sizes small file sizes. On cd on 3.5 even on 5.25 disks. Lousy graphics and graphics that don't know when to quit.
Models come in a box usually, and as a bunch of parts on a sprue tree usually, and are made out of plastic generally, although resin is out there was well. And you can assembly hasty or take your time. You can paint them or not. You can add decals or not. You can buy usually exceedingly expensive super detail parts if you are made out of cash, but most modellers won't use that stuff (even I can't say I can indulge that stuff realistically).
But through it all, a model will only look as good as you make it, and the challenge is to make it look acceptable, but most don't really care.
So what´s the news here and what´s your point actually?
Fact one, I AM a grognard, so if I say a grognard wants such and such a thing, it's worth remembering a grognard said it.
What or who made you one? Do you have a grognard diploma? Does playing boardgames or all you so often stressed "experience" make you one? Did you visit a grognard school or so? No, you label yourself a grognard and then have the arrogance to speak "for all grognards". You´re quick in using the "most" word and assuming things from hear say. Sorry, but that´s they way I feel here.
Fact three, if board games were indeed dying out as a hobby, then there would not be more board games being released.
I never sayed that board gaming is dying, god beware, what I sayed is that your attitude (the elitist and arogance part I refered too in my previous post) will eventually lead to kill this our hobby.
You will never make a non grognard a grognard with a pretty package.
Nobody sayed that. But you can get "not yet-wargamers" to buy the game by appealing and nice graphics. This person might be a "flashbang kid" that is only lured in by the awesome Tiger on the box and some pretty explosions on the screenshots, but he might lick blood and get interested in the hobby of so called "serious" wargaming. Buying more "serious" wargames, becoming interested in military history even. Eventually it will lead him to become a "grognard" some day. One can just pray not one of your kind. See my point ???
Because I am a grognard, and I just said so.
Actually, yes, you´re one. You have all the characteristics. Bitching, whinning, ranting, "soap boxing" and allways right and never wrong
-
IJN_Shinano
- Posts: 15
- Joined: Sun May 26, 2002 2:55 am
Originally posted by Marc Schwanebeck
Actually, yes, you´re one. You have all the characteristics. Bitching, whinning, ranting, "soap boxing" and allways right and never wrong
You hit the nail right on the head with that one.
Very well said, Marc. I don't understand why there are so many people in the world who pretend to know one's "business" without having any real experience in it.
As far as wargaming is concerned, the staff at Matrix *obviously* know their stuff; I *do* hope it pays the bills and makes you happy in your efforts. The Matrix staff has made *me* happy with its games and am confident it will continue to do so.
Don't get too down about the whiners... they're everywhere, no matter what business you're in. And that whining has very little to do with you or your product; too many people bring their own personal problems and conflicts at home/work and project them onto these public forums. Because of those problems, they feel hurt or angry every time someone succeeds or is good at something; it's the credo of "one man's failure is another man's success."
I urge you to continue to speak from the gut. It won't lose you any customers; the most prolific whiners are usually the ones who don't buy the product anyway. And, for certain, they aren't the ones who get hired.
Oh my God, Matrix' own resident phychologist. This forum sure is lucky to have you! :rolleyes:Don't get too down about the whiners... they're everywhere, no matter what business you're in. And that whining has very little to do with you or your product; too many people bring their own personal problems and conflicts at home/work and project them onto these public forums. Because of those problems, they feel hurt or angry every time someone succeeds or is good at something; it's the credo of "one man's failure is another man's success."
I knew there was a reason I don't hang around here too much, although I thought the drivel was basically confined to the grossly misnamed "art of wargaming" forum.
Al
-
IJN_Shinano
- Posts: 15
- Joined: Sun May 26, 2002 2:55 am
Originally posted by AlBW
Oh my God, Matrix' own resident phychologist. This forum sure is lucky to have you!
I knew there was a reason I don't hang around here too much, although I thought the drivel was basically confined to the grossly misnamed "art of wargaming" forum.
Geez. Lighten up.
I wasn't attempting to psychoanalyze the wargaming community. I was just trying to say that that's what some people do: bring their dirty laundry to the forum. I wasn't formulating an amateur thesis on transference... sheez.
If you haven't encountered that behavior outside this forum, count yourself fortunate. But in my experience, it's a behavioral norm for the "know-it-all" style of whiner, no matter the venue.
Anyway, I certainly hope I didn't offend anyone and I certainly hope I didn't offend you, AlBW, who art all good and deserving of all my love. :rolleyes:
Peace.