Bombing Japan

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The first bombers to hit the Japanese Homeland were USAAF B-25s launched from the USS Hornet. The next bombers to hit the Japanese Homeland were USN PV-1s attacking Paramushiro and Shimushu from Attu in late 1943. It seems this is not possible in AE because the range of the PV-1 is inadequate for such a mission. Visiting the vpnavy.com website make the bombing and photorecon of both Paramushiro and Shimushu to be a routine mission for PV-1s (and PV-2s).
The PV-1 had hardpoints on each of its wings for either a 500 lb bomb or a 150 gallon drop tank. From a couple of photos taken from the Fleet Air Wing 4 site the drop tanks appear to be routinely attached to the PV-1. Does the addition of the drop tanks make this a possible mission? The photos of PV-1s on Attu seem to routinely show drop tanks on the wings.

http://www.hlswilliwaw.com/aleutians/At ... u-pv-1.htm

Another problem with the PV-1 appears to be that its airborne surface search radar, its raison d'etre in fact, does not appear to be functional. PV-1s were apparently used to guide USAAF B-24 raids on those Japanese Islands because they had a decent radar and the B-24s didn't.

I've never made it to the part of the game where PV-1s actually enter the game so I've never actually used them for anything. They appear to be overly constrained. Although developed from a commercial airliner like the Hudson/PBO/A-29 they were larger, longer ranged, more heavily armed and considerably faster than those aircraft because they were developed from a later model commercial airliner.

[Alfred]

The distance Attu Island to Paramushiro-jima is 17 hexes.

The range of the PV-1 Ventura is:

Normal 10, with drop tank 12
Extended 12, with drop tank 14

The range of the PV-2 Harpoon is:

Normal 11, with drop tank 13
Extended 14, with drop tank 16

Alfred

[crsutton]

Many times for extra long range missions they could fit extra tanks into the bomb bays. I know that they did this for long range transfers. So perhaps the planes were modified to fly this special mission. Could have been a one off.

The Doolittle bombers were specially modified for extra range. That would not translate into game terms.

[USS Henrico]

The PV-1s aren't really great bombers. They are quite useful in the anti-sub role, an upgraded Army Hudson with radar. They are also good at naval search, as there are never enough PBY squadrons to go around, given withdrawals and needs for for coverage.

[sandman455]

Your link shows an X-version operating out of Attu. That X stands for a developmental or experimental version of an aircraft. In this instance its probably been given some special weather related changes and maybe longer legs to do the job they had planned for it. Once they figured out what worked they would modify the squadrons to be deployed accordingly.

That trivia is pretty irrelevent to your issue though. Your problem is that density altitude isn't part of the air model. Consequently, operations at the 55th parallel are no different that those at the equator. And due to the effects of air density, the real range of anything that uses wings and motors to get around will be different at Attu than say Balikpapan.

You have to find a middle ground. Since much of the action occurs down at the equator, I'm going to guess the designers opted to use something that makes your Attu to Paramushiro mission a few hexes short for the beastly Ventura.

Night bombing from Attu? They were probably dropping leaflets. [:)]

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VB/VPB-131, VB/VPB-135, VB/VPB-136 and VB/VPB-139 all participated in both day and night bombing of Paramushiro and making antishipping strikes in its vicinity as well as photo recon missions in the Northern Kuriles. 2 of the squadrons would be engaged in active ops and 2 refitting in Washington state from mid-1943 onwards. In general it seems the majority of any leaflets dropped weighed in at about 500 lbs.[;)]

The VPNavy.org website contains a squadron history page for each of the squadrons with a bunch of interesting sub articles: the VB/VPB-135 page contains copies of the original reports on a typical daylight bombing mission, the VB/VPB-139 website has what appears to be a translation of the diary of a Japanese military doctor killed in the battle of Attu: interesting description of the "care" afforded the patients in his hospital.

Of note is that all the pictures of PV-1s/PV-2s show them sporting 150 gallon wing tanks on pylons on each wing. The mission description on the VB/VPB-135 page includes the weapons loadout on the participating a/c: ~2000 lbs of various bomb types which would seem to indicate that the a/c were not filling up the bomb bay with gas tanks. Further the narrative of the raid reports the fuel remaining to (at least some of) the a/c when they returned to Attu after the raid (about 200 gals). This seems to indicate that these aircraft extended their range with these wing tanks in a fashion similar to fighters with drop tanks. Even with these external spoilers quite a few descriptions of these missions describe escaping from enemy fighters (Ki-43, Ki-44, A6M3 mentioned specifically) by outrunning them.

[sandman455]

Its all very interesting stuff Spence. I'm on board with all of it.

But. . .





It appears the game has the aircraft with wing tanks available. And it still doesn't have the range to do the mission based on the factors I stated before. If you fix the game to do it up at Attu, you will break it down in the DEI.

As you described, they were landing with little more than a single drop tank of gas - really less since nobody ever wants to get down to the stuff at the bottom of the tanks. This is at the outer edge of a PV-1 and you are doing it under absolutely ideal environmental conditions. Incredible stuff really.

My remark about the leaflets was to put in perspective what the real significance of sending a handful of 2E bombers with 1500lbs of bombs to attack a base every week or so. Now put a few groups of B-24's on the mission and you got something significant - which seems to be what they did. [:)]

[USS Henrico]

A few squadrons of B-29s operating from Armchitka could range far enough to do some really useful damage.

[spence]

Everybody seems to be having fun.

My research indicates that the PV-1 Ventura has a good deal more range than it has been accorded in WitP: AE just as it was grossly misrepresented in the original WitP.

We have a simulation where every statistic seems to have been manipulated to allow the IJN to sink the HMS Prince of Wales and HMS Repulse on turn 1 or 2 even though this event was absolutely the exception to the rule. I'm not contending that G3Ms or G4Ms didn't occasionally score a death dealing torpedo hit on an Allied warship but frankly given the number of sorties the occasional torpedo hit is not to be unexpected. My concern is that the range of an Allied medium bomber (at least one) has arbitrarily been decreased such that it can not complete missions that it routinely performed during the war while at the same time demanding three testimonials from long departed saints for every box of K-rations that allegedly turned up in the Pacific Theater of Operations while simultaneously allowing IJN bombers to inflict totally undue influence on Allied Strategy over 1/2 of the map.

My research indicates that the PV-1 routinely performed missions at ranges in excess of 650 nautical miles (at a wide variety of Latitudes from the tropics to the Arctic). It did so when delivering payloads in excess of 1500 lbs. It certainly did not carry the payload of a B-24 but in so far as Paramushiro is concerned it was called upon to guide the B-24s to the target with its radar (since the weather was so crumby). Also because of the repeated bombing of Paramushiro the Japanese diverted a significant number of fighters to this admittedly secondary theater. I'm not saying that the IJ Player should be "required" to do this thing but rather that the characteristics of Allied weaponry should not be so constrained as to alleviate the IJ Player's potential apprehension about the possibility.

[YankeeAirRat]

Okay to start with the listed maximum range that I have seen in all references available at my local library list the PV-1 as having a 1660 statue mile range (or about 1442 nautical miles, if we accept that 1.15nm is 1 statue mile) that is maximum range with no ordnance. If we start to add ordnance such as then that range has to decrease since you have to trade off gas for bombs, bullets, rockets, etc. Considering that the AN-M43 and AN-M65 both weighted in at just around 500lbs and they were the standard demolition bomb of the war amongst the Navy and the Army, that means in the current stock database for 6x500lbs a total of 3000lbs of weight needs to be traded off the plane to carry this much weight in just bombs. AvGas usually tips the scales at 6lbs per gallon at about 59degree F (it will weight more in colder temps and less in hotter temps, since I don't have the conversion chart in front of me lets assume 59F outside air temp). So that means to allow the carriage of 6xM43 or M65 bombs means about 500 gallons of fuel needs to be offloaded from the plane. At 500 gallons that is a serious range trade off to maximize bomb potential.

Since the Paramushiro raids only happened for about three weeks before they were called off by Admiral Fletcher due to heavy losses from both weather, AAA and opposing force fighters it just doesn't seem realisitic to modify the PV-1 or PV-2 for this. Also doing research at the NAS Whidbey Island Base Museum, they show that only a few of the PV-1/2 units actually did long range patrol or even long range bombing. Most of the combat unit histories they have on file here seem to show rather the PV-1/2's were used more for fast attack against inter-coastal convoys. Similar to how the British were using Mosquitos and Beaufighters in the Med and North Sea theaters.

[Blackhorse]

ORIGINAL: USS Henrico

A few squadrons of B-29s operating from Armchitka could range far enough to do some really useful damage.

The US Army Air Corps built Shemya, near Attu, into a B-29-capable base. Because of the success of the Marianas bomber offensive, they eventually abandoned the plan to base B-29 attacks against Japan out of Shemya.

Shemya was arguably the most desolate US air base in the war.

[Sardaukar]

Ops losses should be massive. Isn't weather in that area mostly quite...horrible?

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

Ops losses should be massive. Isn't weather in that area mostly quite...horrible?

Looks like sunshine and moderate weather from this picture. Quite lovely. Imagine the solitude and peace and quiet. Yessiree-lovely.

[;)]

[Barb]

Weather over the Aleutians tend to be "very tricky" at least. At the time your weather plane is over the target, your home base would most probably have zero visibility. And in case you launched when fine weather was over your base, than the target would be obscured on 9 out of 10 occasions when you get there.

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: YankeeAirRat

Since the Paramushiro raids only happened for about three weeks before they were called off by Admiral Fletcher due to heavy losses from both weather, AAA and opposing force fighters it just doesn't seem realisitic to modify the PV-1 or PV-2 for this.

Ye olde Paper stat vs. Actual range argument. Agree. Also throw in a chunk of fuel for reserve.....esp over water masses and throw in loiter time over base, the exact altitude which esp if loaded down with bombs will suck gas at elevated levels.........

[crsutton]

And the human factor as well. One or two long special long range missions might be OK, but ask aircrews to fly bombing mission after mission of this sort would have ruined the crews in the matter of a few missions. That is, if they were not already dead. One need only read about the Tokyo raid to get a sense of the pressure and stress when crews are required to perform this type of mission. One little mistake, a missed waypoint, slightly wrong fuel mixture, a slightly heavy headwind, some unexpected bad weather or a couple or bulletholes in the wrong place would mean probable death. Just because it is possible on paper does not mean it was possible in any sustained way to fly planes to the edge of the envelope turn after turn. Everybody talks about the frigging hardware all the time. There was a lot more to this war than hardware. I think the designers had a pretty good grip on this concept when they came up with ranges.

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quote:

ORIGINAL: YankeeAirRat

Since the Paramushiro raids only happened for about three weeks before they were called off by Admiral Fletcher due to heavy losses from both weather, AAA and opposing force fighters it just doesn't seem realisitic to modify the PV-1 or PV-2 for this.



Ye olde Paper stat vs. Actual range argument. Agree. Also throw in a chunk of fuel for reserve.....esp over water masses and throw in loiter time over base, the exact altitude which esp if loaded down with bombs will suck gas at elevated levels.........

The paper combat range is 1660 miles. Even if it is only a paper range it sure is substantially better than the 634 miles accorded the a/c in the game. The ferry range added about 1000 more miles. There is on the web somewhere some pages from a USN Bureau of Aeronautics publication dated 1943 which shows all sorts of marvelous statistics about this aircraft in both graphic and tabular form. One table in particular noted the range with no bomb bay tanks, the range with 1 bomb bay tank and what ordinance could be carried in each instance and further specifically described the state when the a/c was to be ferried (with all weapons removed). I searched for it quite diligently today unsuccessfully. Perhaps someone else can find it.

The raids on Paramushiro by PVs extended over much more than 3 weeks. The circumstances mentioned actually pertain principally to the daylight unescorted B-24 raids. The heavy losses mentioned were losses inflicted on the B-24s. The PVs (1s & 2s) continued their bombing and photo-recon missions at night even during the USAAF hiatus and later actually went back to daylight raids. They often dropped their bombs by radar through the overcast which surely meant they inflicted minimal damage HOWEVER the fact is that they flew the mission routinely over the course of nearly two years.

The Allied Player shouldn't be constrained to bombing Paramushiro with his PVs. It should be possible and the Japanese Player should have to worry about just where these aircraft may show up. Maybe his Shinden's will shoot them all down...but he should have to go to that effort

The exact losses for the 4 squadrons of PVs in Fleet Air Wing 4 to all causes was around 30 planes with the majority being operational losses (many due to weather, which was really awful (as noted) but some to the tendency of the aircraft to ground loop if an engine was lost during takeoff). Multiple crews were interned in the USSR after flying damaged a/c to Petropavlovsk rather than risk going down in the sea (where 30 secs was a good estimate of how long it took for the cold to render one unconscious). Some interesting reminiscences of Russian hospitality are to also to be found on the web. PVs shot down a half dozen or so IJN/IJA fighters over Paramushiro.

[YankeeAirRat]

Here you go from the Naval Historical and Hertiage Center:

PV-1 Stats in PDF format

To quote from the information:

Maximum Range configured as a bomber with 2x1000lb on external with a bomb-bay tank is listed as 1550 statue miles while the plane is flying no faster then 173 mph
Maximum Rang configured as a bomber with 6 x 500lb in the internal bomb bay no external tanks the plan can fly 1350 statue miles while flying no faster then 165 mph
Bombing radius with 20% reserve fuel is listed as 525 statue miles at no faster then 144 mph with 2x1000lb on external and a bomb-bay tank
Bombing radius with 33% reserve fuel is listed as 435 statue miles at no faster then 147 mph with 2x1000lb on external and a bomb-bay tank
Bombing radius with 20% reserve fuel is listed as 460 statue miles at no faster then 150 mph with 6x500lb and no external stores
Bombing radius with 33% reserve fuel is listed as 380 statue miles at no faster then 153 mph with 6x500lb and no external stores.

All of these ranges assumed that the aircraft would fly at 1500ft above ground level

My information for the raids against Northern Japan only lasting for a few weeks at a time came from this book, , this book all of which talk about how the Fleet Air Wing 4 operating out of the Aletuian Islands and 11th AF were decimated during the first few massive raids as the Japanese shifted forces north to deal with the threat. After Fletcher canceled the raids, FAW4 shifted to having smaller raids of aircraft that became more successful in ability to get in and get out. However, on a whole during this shift these raids were more along the lines of similar raids flown in backwater portions of the Pacific. Nothing more then harrassment raids to remind the Japanese that they were there but not really doing any major damage.

[Erkki]

OK, Ventura range fix for D4Y range fix, deal? [8D]

[Nikademus]

Craig Symonds new book on Midway contained some interesting real world examples of the difference between paper stats and actual range, particularily regarding the SBD.