Helio's Axis AAR (v Cannonfodder Soviet)

[heliodorus04]

ORIGINAL: Pelton

no it cant be dropped.

Also I would not attack a single unit you have in that pocket, because if you wait unit November they dont come back for free.

Let them rot until snow.

Oh, I thought it stopped on Turn 18. Damn. Well, I'm not going to game the system that way, plus, they're hurting my rail advancement and my supply line by being where they are.

[Peltonx]

I did not see in the AAR if you took Moscow or not.

[Balou]

helio,
picture below is from your AAR, turn 18 I suppose. What do the counters tell? (whithin white circle ?)

[Peltonx]

Lol so close.

U still have 3 turns of snow.

I am not 100% sure but attacking a hex atleast causes the population to move win or lose. So you can damage the manpower even if you dont take a city, which is historical in my book.

[freeboy]

not sure if the "manpower" count drops with the "population moves too X' message,
ned to kick that one to the dev's

[heliodorus04]

ORIGINAL: Balou

helio,
picture below is from your AAR, turn 18 I suppose. What do the counters tell? (whithin white circle ?)

No idea. I think that's a circle that was added by mistake.

Pelton, I have not attacked Moscow yet. It's mud.

[Balou]

Actually I added the circle. At your magnification the counters didn't gave any info. And I was just asking for a higher magnification to better see whats going on near Moscow itself.

[heliodorus04]

ORIGINAL: Balou

Actually I added the circle. At your magnification the counters didn't gave any info. And I was just asking for a higher magnification to better see whats going on near Moscow itself.

W.Moscow is 2-Rifle.Div& 1 fort, 67 CV Defense
NW.Moscow is 2-Rifle.Div& 1 fort, 63 CV Defense
Mytishi ("NE Moscow") is 3 rifle div, 18 defense

The units on the southern side I do not have a value for, because I've not gone adjacent.

There's some weird developments in his Moscow defense (or my detection of it) that I'll have to go over for turn 20. I'm just messing around with the administrative side of the turn.

[Peltonx]

As long as your assault units have allot of poineers they can take any hex. No hex on map is safe from and attack. level 3 fort vs poineers = 0 So the cv numbers would drop allot. Put Model in charge of army and next best commanders in charge of corp assaulting that way you get a "good roll".

Bomb hex 2 or 3 times from air first, you can also attack with 1 division several times first. The russian guys I play do this tactic all time vs panzer divisions. Which by the way is really stupid because of the moral I gain from the holds, BUT ina case of taking a city it is worth the truoble.

So bomb hex 2 times, small assualts from some crap unit then main assault from units with Model, stugs and poineers. Also allot of artillary in the divisions and army HQ's. They all need to be withen 5 hexs the turn before also.

I would still try to pocket it, but I dought it be easy. Might be best to just assault the city.

Leningrad can easly be cracked so can Moscow.

Almost forgot HQ build-up also helps allot by having allot of ammo on hand. That can be done several turns before assault.

In your case I would just kick the door in, but I dont have all the info.

Pelton

[heliodorus04]

Incidentally, and before I go on: I’m on turn 20, and I can find no record of Turn 19 screenshots or anything. I think I might have saved both T19 and T18 pictures in the T18 file, because I’ve captured every turn in writing. Nothing seems missing. Continuing:

On the one hand, Pelton, I see your point, and on the other, the difference between Leningrad and Moscow is frontage. Leningrad compresses a defense, and you don’t attack Leningrad proper (the dense urban hex) until it’s out of supply.

There’s something weird going on north of Moscow, though, and I don’t know why he’s doing this. I don’t know if it’s a mistake or a setup… Check out this early picture (post recon, almost nothing moved):





See the white circle: I’m pretty sure I have severed that rail junction, and that would explain why he’s not counting on a defense up there. He’s got the river well defended and fortified. But if I could get to the towns circled, I could cut the last rail line. I don’t know what’s possible in snow in terms of movement distance, but I’m venturing that in a 3-turn sprint, you’d either be doing a ‘raid’ that costs you a division, or it’s just not possible.

The next tactical question confronting me at Moscow and the Donets is this: how far can I move in 3 turns of attack, and how will I defend myself the first turn of blizzard? Those are frightening questions that I don’t have experience to answer.

[veji1]

This game is really shaping up to be fascinating : You have done very well, massively destabilising your opponent and forming a few vey big pockets. Now fighting for Moscow is going to enter a decisive phase late into the season, with the question being can you get it before the Blizzard ? and in what state will this offensive leave your army ? Your front is topsy-curvy, leaving room for him to attack during the blizzard. Basically were are going to get a proper Typhoon with all the urgency it implies. Furthermore your Blizzard inexperience makes it even more interesting as you might cock up big time, very much like the 41 Germans !

in a world, it all feels very "historical" except your uber progreess in the north.

really looking forward to Typhoon and then the winter!

[heliodorus04]

ORIGINAL: veji1

This game is really shaping up to be fascinating : You have done very well, massively destabilising your opponent and forming a few vey big pockets. Now fighting for Moscow is going to enter a decisive phase late into the season, with the question being can you get it before the Blizzard ? and in what state will this offensive leave your army ? Your front is topsy-curvy, leaving room for him to attack during the blizzard. Basically were are going to get a proper Typhoon with all the urgency it implies. Furthermore your Blizzard inexperience makes it even more interesting as you might cock up big time, very much like the 41 Germans !

in a world, it all feels very "historical" except your uber progreess in the north.

really looking forward to Typhoon and then the winter!

I hate to disappoint you, but I'm not sure a Moscow offensive is a tactically sound option. I don't think I can take it. If anyone has suggestions on methodology and approach to doing this, I'd love to know.

I would be encouraged to attack in mud if the mud penalty was lessened in an urban/city hex. But there's no point, unfortunately, for attacking Moscow in mud, even though I'm so close. Or am I wrong?

[veji1]

I would have thought that the attack would have proceeded during snow, not mud... Ah well still interesting.

[janh]

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04
I hate to disappoint you, but I'm not sure a Moscow offensive is a tactically sound option. I don't think I can take it. If anyone has suggestions on methodology and approach to doing this, I'd love to know.

I would be encouraged to attack in mud if the mud penalty was lessened in an urban/city hex. But there's no point, unfortunately, for attacking Moscow in mud, even though I'm so close. Or am I wrong?

Veji1 might be right, this may result in a 1942 somewhat close to what the Germans experienced back then. The major difference of Leningrad in German hands may have a large impact, though: It allows the Finns to take over parts of the German line, freeing German troops for duty elsewhere. However, since the Soviets aren't locked in a desperate defensive struggle for Leningrad and the main land ports, this also frees a large number of their forces. In fact, since all the way to Moscow there is nothing worth fighting for a Russian in that region, and, moreover, the rail lines allow quick shuffling of troops there (for reinforcement, feinting or offensive), a Soviet player probably can withdraw a disproportionate number of units now. Perhaps starving but not taking Leningrad would serve a major purpose?

Regarding Moscow -- you could do it like the Germans had to do, attack in mud and in snow in a last ditch effort? Fortunately you don't have to -- the mud turns are gambling at best. The way things look from your maps, and latest casualty returns, it should be doable in snow if you move a lot of the Pioneer battalions, the heavy howitzers (esp. the many 210mm field-how's) and artillery to support and manage to build up fuel (MP) and ammo, perhaps by a HQ-buildup? Also, I would for a few turns pull all remaining Luftwaffe assets together.

The question is only: is it worth it? This war in the long run is only about gaining time, about keeping the initiative, i.e. later about disrupting Soviet offensives, or countering them. Simultaneously it is about inflicting casualties on the Soviets at a ratio higher than 2:1. I think you should do it if you can pocket significant forces, otherwise a frontal assault, though I believe quite doable, would perhaps not meet this "exchange rate" for direct combat losses. Besides that, taking Moscow would also inflict cheap casualties in form of manpower (times displaced days). If there were any air or armament industry left that would also be additional "cheap casualties". Even without those, however, you can destroy rail infrastructure, which is perhaps worth a lot more as it will hurt soviet strategic flexibility and reaction to your moves...
However -- similarly to Leningrad -- also as long as Moscow is intact and in Soviet hands, you might be able to bind a lot more Reds there during winter and the next year(s) than once it is taken and devastated...?

[Encircled]

If you have three turns of snow, then you have to go for it.

[Flaviusx]

Helio, I'd say it's even odds on Moscow.

If you take it, you have the possibility of throwing a serious monkey wrench in the big red machine and compromising their blizzard counteroffensive.

If you don't take it, you'll be very badly exposed to the same offensive.

It's a high stakes gamble, either way. So: do you feel lucky?

[Baelfiin]

If you dont have Moscow pocketed first, dont attack it. Otherwise the price you pay going head to head in the urban terrain with supplied russians is too much.

*** looking at the screenshot now, I would still say pocket pocket pocket. I would move those 2nd panzer army guys to one of the flanks and go for it.. with eveyone rested for a turn or 2 and hq'ed up, two turns to seal the pocket and one turn to clean it up should be doable. of course there could be a lot more russians hiding in those trees ....... ***

[ComradeP]

It's too late to pocket Moscow, considering the number of Soviets in the area. Unless you want to risk a frontal attack against the Moscow hexes, leave the city alone. Capturing the city now would in all likeliness just mean you'll lose it a few turns later.

Your intended defensive line is too close to the current front, it will fall.

Try to find some population level 3 or 4 towns and cities for your mobile units to hide in. Your current blizzard preparations are insufficient and will mean many of your mobile units lose morale for no strategic gain.

Evacuate the Ryazan salient and be ready to give up the area east of Kharkov as well.

You'll probably hold Kaluga if you play it right, but with the current dispositions you're likely to lose Kursk, Belgorod and Orel. Prepare to fall back to the Dnepr in the AGS area. Too many Soviets there and little to no preparations by you. If he wants to, it will be very easy for him to walk out of the Crimea.

The majority of your Fortified Zones currently serve no real purpose, as they were constructed too late to have a real effect.

Even with ~4 million men (which will increase soon enough) Cannonfodder can probably inflict some good damage because you're overextended.

You could launch attacks against the units at the frontline during the snow turns, provided the defenders are not fortified or are still weak even with forts.

[heliodorus04]

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

It's too late to pocket Moscow, considering the number of Soviets in the area. Unless you want to risk a frontal attack against the Moscow hexes, leave the city alone. Capturing the city now would in all likeliness just mean you'll lose it a few turns later.

Your intended defensive line is too close to the current front, it will fall.

Try to find some population level 3 or 4 towns and cities for your mobile units to hide in. Your current blizzard preparations are insufficient and will mean many of your mobile units lose morale for no strategic gain.

Evacuate the Ryazan salient and be ready to give up the area east of Kharkov as well.

You'll probably hold Kaluga if you play it right, but with the current dispositions you're likely to lose Kursk, Belgorod and Orel. Prepare to fall back to the Dnepr in the AGS area. Too many Soviets there and little to no preparations by you. If he wants to, it will be very easy for him to walk out of the Crimea.

The majority of your Fortified Zones currently serve no real purpose, as they were constructed too late to have a real effect.

Even with ~4 million men (which will increase soon enough) Cannonfodder can probably inflict some good damage because you're overextended.

You could launch attacks against the units at the frontline during the snow turns, provided the defenders are not fortified or are still weak even with forts.

Wow.
Sounds like I've done a poor job transitioning out of summer...

[ComradeP]

No, that was fine, it's just that you now need to transition to winter/a blizzard that will be ugly on the Axis.

My points probably sounded a bit harsh, but they were only meant to be straightforward.

I've created a number of Moscow pockets including large amounts of units against the AI. Now, before anyone jumps in and yells: "this game isn't played against the AI!", the point I'm trying to make is that it will generally require 2 turns to clean up a pocket this size, minimum, especially with your current dispositions.

One thing you really, REALLY don't want is your mobile units being stuck halfway through a failed attempt at making a pocket, with no forts, shoddy logistics and halved CV's whilst the Soviets get doubled CV's right next to the mobile units caught with their pants down whilst trying to clean up the pocket. Also: if Cannonfodder's really smart, he has air bases in there and level bombers ready for transport missions so his CV's won't even decrease by much for the first turn of being isolated.

Attacking in the blizzard isn't the walk in the park it once was for the Soviets, but with some planning and preparation (and I honestly have no idea what kind of planning Cannonfodder has done) you can still land some fatal blows.

As you're still deep inside the Soviet Union, the primary goal at this point is the preservation of the Wehrmacht until the 1942 summer campaign season. Overextension and rather optimistic expectations for what you can do in the winter combined with a lack of preparations for the blizzard are your primary enemies. You probably won't believe the results of the first blizzard turn if it's your first blizzard against a human player, but try to stay in control and in some ways keep the initiative (in this case that means: withdraw at your own pace).

Look at the map, find good spots to hole up at, make a plan for where you want your mobile units to go for winter quarters, possibly aside from the elite SS divisions, as Q-Ball recently noted (but do remember to send the support units attached to those SS units to OKH in a city somewhere) and try to straighten the line so your infantry has at least some chance of holding it. Regiments at the frontline are a big no-no, although I guess that theoretically you could use some as skirmishers, but there shouldn't normally be a reason to use them. The last thing you need is overloading corps HQ's through splitting up units.