A warning to Russians in the 1.05 GC about what to expect in 1942

[BletchleyGeek]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
Reserve option is crippled by the abysmal Soviet initiative ratings. If it's not an SU, don't expect much. You have only a handful of leaders with adequate initiative ratings.

You're basically right, but there are two things to consider:

* High initiative Soviet leaders are few, and need to be placed at the command of your operational reserves.
* A high number of attacks means that, on average, more reserves will be committed even with average Initiative ratings. It's all about placement, since the second check is probably what kills reserves for most people (when the available MP's are compared with MP's required to get to the attacked hex) and to avoid that the reserve unit gets nullified because of getting into ZOC.
* The units most useful for this reserve role are Brigades, and probably Rifle and Motor Brigades more than Tank Brigades. Tank Corps will work when under high initiative leaders (or near towns) if they have a good amount of MP's.

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
The Soviets substitute depth for reserves.

Carpets don't work, they can be sliced and cut off easily. So it's not about blocking, but about

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
The key here is keep massive strategic reserves. Always have a trump available to respond to Axis moves. Always. These strategic reserves should all be training like it's going out of style, too. (You need to be 10+ hexes away from the front for best results.) Morale and experience is indeed king, and you have to do whatever you can to diminish the gap between yourself and the Axis. The 1942 NM is craptastic, and training is your best answer to that.

Actually I think one needs two layers of reserves: the strategic ones that you describe, and an operational one, just between the front line and the strategic one. These operational reserves goal is to keep things contained to make sure your strategic reserves can enter into action in your terms.

[Q-Ball]

In one respect the Red Army will be better off: Experience levels should be overall higher than 1941, because in '41 you have hordes of 30-ish experience replacements that are problematic. At least that's in the low 40's in 1942. Morale is a problem though.

The German player should be able to uncork some nice offensives, but I also think the depth in Infantry replacements isn't there, so an offensive won't be as sustainable. The Germans do get quite a few fresh infantry formations ahead of Fall Blau, which helps alot, but without the replacements, those units will grind down anyway in a few turns.

I find that the Germans are suffering somewhat more losses in combat than in 1941, so the Infantry will wear down a little quicker. That, plus there are more Reds around, so there should be more fighting and less marching through empty terrain.

I want to see how it plays out on both sides, but so far I like it alot; the Germans should have strategic initiative in 1942, and looks like that is happening.

[BletchleyGeek]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball
In one respect the Red Army will be better off: Experience levels should be overall higher than 1941, because in '41 you have hordes of 30-ish experience replacements that are problematic. At least that's in the low 40's in 1942. Morale is a problem though.

Yes, while the average experience is higher, what surprised me when I checked was that the distribution of unit experience values was heavily skewed towards the lower end. The median value is slightly lower than in 1941 (which means that there substantially more units with lower experience in 1942 w.r.t. 1941 than units with higher experience in 1942 than in 1941). This I think is because, first and foremost, because of the terrible losses, and second and lesser degree, because of the continuous TOE upgrades.

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball
The German player should be able to uncork some nice offensives, but I also think the depth in Infantry replacements isn't there, so an offensive won't be as sustainable. The Germans do get quite a few fresh infantry formations ahead of Fall Blau, which helps alot, but without the replacements, those units will grind down anyway in a few turns.

If everything is working well, this should mean that the Axis would find himself leading his offensives with his motorized formations. This should offer plenty of opportunities.

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball
I want to see how it plays out on both sides, but so far I like it alot; the Germans should have strategic initiative in 1942, and looks like that is happening.

It is, indeed

[ComradeP]

One thing that is usually only indirectly referred to, is that the Soviets are weaker in WitE than in any other wargame I can currently think of. The average Axis infantry formation in 1941 is not only 4-5 times as good as a ~2 CV Soviet Rifle formation, but they also get benefits from better leaders and better support units.

So the Soviet retreat to the east that has been described in a number of plain or more colourful phrases is a strategic necessity for the preservation of a Soviet army. A forward defence can work, but only for a few turns in a sector, as after that your units will just be burned out.

I'm somewhat amused that many players still play WitE like they would other wargames, but the realities (and limitations) of the system are now making people think more about their tactics.

We've been discussing on the tester forum if we might not have overcorrected things a bit, and the final verdict will depend on the 1942 summer campaigns that are unfolding now or will unfold soon.

Still, it is certain that overall the Soviet army is still not close to being historical, because it's weaker in 1941, but becomes much stronger than its historical counterpart by 1944 due to the various morale bonuses.

[freeboy]

does not matter to me that red army gets kicked around like so much leftovers, remember in 1942? after kicking Germany around all winter.. Karkov to rostov too past Stalingrad in what 8 weeks? 12? anyway the germans  anyway.. gives me something of a challenge now as red army... and something too look forward to as german...
 

[colberki]

I also think the 1.05 changes have made for a great game!!

[Hermann]

Basically ive found that the german player ignores leningrad and moscow when the first rush fails and drives straight to the kharkov region with 3 and sometimes 4 complete panzergroups. at this point its impossible to slow a 42 advance especially if he has brought up 3 or 4 fbds to extend the rail. Key to survival in 42 is a large supply of brigades along the river lines to the rear under army hqs with high admin leaders and multiple construction battalions. they can over time build a reasonable defense and when your damaged units fall back they can merge with with brigades and immediately be restored to full action. the southern approach is severely limited by the single rail line. position 80% of your transport and heavy dbap bombers in vvs bases operating from the south set on night raids and heavily reinforce the northern area of the axis advance with fighters split roughly 60/40 on day and night missions to prevent resupply. Use your sb and pe bombers to ruthlessly attack his transport airbases before and during his attack. the german achilles heel in 42 is supply. be proactive not reactive. A cavalry reserve of some strength needs to be positioned in no mans land ( the railless region south of the don above the caucusus with the mission of attacking the german supply line after the spearheads have passed - dont use tanks down there theres no supply ) Concentrate all your gaurds units into shock armies at the furthest point from his armored spearhead and attack like hell to force him to weaken his main effort and reinforce. basically try to be very aware of possible supply supply bottlenecks and use the vvs/partisan units to concentrate attacks in those areas.

[Hermann]

the key to the whole thing is that supply needs to be charged to rail capacity for play balance and rail cap needs to be expended by front hqs to receive that supply. that ends the ahistorical massing of impossibly large mechanised formations in single spearheads and brings the gampeplay back to a more historical rote where supply decides the scale and location of ops. the russian front wasnt just a military campaign, much of its character was formed by the issues of supply and concentration and thats something the game designers havent yet matured into. 60 mech divisions running full throtlle on a single rail line 60 hexes from point of departure at full supply is a bit hard for a grognard to stomach. even fall blau and the caucusus were historically halted by supply not resistance with paulus stopping within sight of an undefended stalingrad for almost 2 weeks to supply the caucusus attack, again stalling at the end of a long supply chain. To tell me that wite found a way to push 60 mech divisions into the same area at full supply indefinetely stretches it a bit....

[freeboy]

I dissagree and agree.. regarding supplies.. absolutely need to add.. regional stockpiles and rail per phase per hex limits.. of some sort.. remember the red army had terrible time supplying armies in the field after initial breakthroughs
regarding massing forces? really.. don't see that imo.. not being sold on no massing for either side...
pm sent fyi
 

[BletchleyGeek]

On the thread where I got pissed off, besides pissing off, also proposed some changes to logistics game mechanics which involved making supply flow, capacity and availability to be "regional" or rather "bound to territory", while removing the "freebie" which is allowing everyone and his dog to draw supply from a railhead as if setting up a logistics hub was something could be done by a division on a whim.

[freeboy]

well, there re players who LOVE the managment aspect.. for myself its not me.. so this level of managment is already too much for my tasts.. but I am aware others want even more.. no worries.. just make things simple.. currently we can either manage airforces, as an example, or let the ia with a few settings...
adding another layer of player controlled supply would effectively kill this game for me, IF I had to micro manage it... my opinion only as a long term/time gamer 

[BletchleyGeek]

Not too much micromanagement: just establishing priorities, or if you want, setting a general "policy". That doesn't amount - I think - to forcing anyone to write a memo to Halder to complain about his soldiers not getting new socks

[freeboy]

I agree  but in my order of priorities for GG WITE part 2, perhaps this is not my number one priority..
 

[Schmart]

ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek

On the thread where I got pissed off, besides pissing off, also proposed some changes to logistics game mechanics which involved making supply flow, capacity and availability to be "regional" or rather "bound to territory", while removing the "freebie" which is allowing everyone and his dog to draw supply from a railhead as if setting up a logistics hub was something could be done by a division on a whim.

I suggest a simple (and good 'ole carboard game) solution: Supply counters. In 1941, the Germans get 3 (one for each AG) in 1941, then lose 1 in late 41, lose another in late 42, and lose the third in summer 43. Russians get 1 in late 1941, and another in early 43. Any units within XX radius of the supply unit gets additional (sustained offensive) supply. Units outside of the radius get basic/nominal supply (enough for sustained defense, but would quickly burn out in a few turns of attack). Russian radius and supply bonus would be a little less than the equivalent German supply unit.

However, methinks this solution is too simple for the creators/visionaries of WitE, as it dosen't count individual truck spare tire availability or take into account mobile bath and laundry units...

[freeboy]

I strongly object to timed rules..
and yes.. youre elegent simple solution does not address rail supplies... bottlenecks and is too simple.. now how many spair tires do I need? lol

[Q-Ball]

ORIGINAL: Schmart
I suggest a simple (and good 'ole carboard game) solution: Supply counters. In 1941, the Germans get 3 (one for each AG) in 1941, then lose 1 in late 41, lose another in late 42, and lose the third in summer 43. Russians get 1 in late 1941, and another in early 43. Any units within XX radius of the supply unit gets additional (sustained offensive) supply. Units outside of the radius get basic/nominal supply (enough for sustained defense, but would quickly burn out in a few turns of attack). Russian radius and supply bonus would be a little less than the equivalent German supply unit.

However, methinks this solution is too simple for the creators/visionaries of WitE, as it dosen't count individual truck spare tire availability or take into account mobile bath and laundry units...

Not a bad idea, except the problem isn't "too simple", is that it's too easily gamed.

You know how many "supply counters" your opponent has; let's say two. You are getting attacked in two sectors. What are your chances, then, of being attacked in a third sector?

Zero, and the defensive player knows this. That's the problem.

[Hermann]

a simple temporary fix would be to take Korps out of the supply link - theyre tactical command HQs and have no supply function whatsoever. that allows supply to accumulate at army hq from the homeland. Strict supply/morale penalties for overburdened army hqs keep the divisional numbers down in army formations and the cost of moving army hqs is increased by the total supply present ( by rail or even truck ) these army hqs become legitimate air targets that need to be protected and assaults on them by air can effectively slow an enemy attack over time as occured historically.

an army functions as a literal railhead and needs to stay on active raillines to function that means rail attrition during the trip to the army hq. supply needs to be transported from the army hq to the divisions by truck and /or rail if possible which means truck attrition for each hex carried and a reduction of the supply reaching the unit. as the army hqs stocks decline naturally so does unit supply so opverpacking an hq results in a faster loss of supply.

[bigbaba]

ORIGINAL: von Beanie

Starting with 1.05.xx GC from the beginning in a competitive PBEM setting, I'm finding the Germans can now launch 1941-style blitzkriegs and encirclements in the summer of 1942. Since there's no need to maintain panzer divisions on the rest of the front, the Germans can concentrate their whole armored force in one region and overwhelm your defenses. I haven't seen any threads warning me to expect these sorts of offensives in 1942, so I'm ringing the alarm bell now. Russian players need to be prepared to consider running away again as the wisest defense, because you can't afford the major losses I've suffered trying to reopen the pockets, just to see yourself get surrounded again.

I believe it's the one week movement rates that allow the extreme mobility that creates the 1941-style pockets. Either the movement rates need to be lowered in 1942, and/or the time scale needs to be reduced to 3.5 day turns during the summer turns to allow the defender to react quicker. I'm finding that the Germans are as strong, if not stronger in 1942 than they are in 1941. Anyway, be forewarned.

hi there.

i agree here 100%. i did the same in my game as axis and concentrated 17 panzer and 13 mot. divisions in the south in summer 42. result was 80% of the best troops of the red army encirceld and my opponent gave up.

now playing the soviet i have to play sir robinovsky myself in 42 to avoid huge loses to my german opponent.

[Farfarer61]

I am really enjoying summer 42 as Sov, even though my excellent opponent re-destroyed the SW Front. I have tank Corps, Guards Cav Corps, Guards Rifle divs and Guards divs up the ying yang, with crap morale, buy hey they get MP 48 (the tanks) and exploit until they are routed. Even without 1:1 = 2:1 I can concentrate 1000's of aircraft, bomb a 3 stack tired Panzer corps and get a retreat when I assault. Of course hands me new one on his counter-attack, then I bring up another Front... you get the picture. Gotta like Inf Corps with CV 12.

The lower Russian NM is good as it means you can't totally neglect the northern fronts, or everything turns unready if they are in the front. Static mode has a defensive purpose, AP farming is no longer the intent.

[Klydon]

I like seeing this thread as it begins to get the Russian side thinking of strategies and tactics for how the game currently is.

Historically, the Russians were weak in the spring and early summer of 1942; in some ways even weaker than in the opening days of 1941 in terms of unit skill. The game now generally reflects that. As a disclaimer, I have not had a chance to work in a campaign as the Russians yet under 1.05, but this comes from observation, etc.

To me, some important things the Russians must look at is trying to rebuild a cadre of quality (for Russian) units to use at decisive points and times against the Germans. Until then, the Russians should keep them out of sight and away from harm and continue to work on increasing that pool of units. Examples of these units include guards, mountain, cav corps, and as you get them to come on line, tank corps.

During the winter, the Russians not only want to hurt the Germans as much as possible, but also use it to build moral and get as many units promoted to guards as they can. This also includes tank brigades as well. As soon as a unit hits guard status, they should usually be withdrawn to rest and be brought up to full strength. Tank brigades need to be removed immediately to be saved for being formed into tank corps.

As some others have mentioned, defense in depth and having deep reserves is the way to go imo. Good AP management is a must as well since you want to be able to form new units as needed (you should actually have a trickle of new units in a pipeline every turn until close to mud in the fall of 1942 or until the German appears to have shut down offensive operations). The only way you can really lose the game is put yourself in a postion where the Germans have removed enough counters that you can't defend. (This assumes you did ok with evacing industry).

The other thing I have seen is the Russians sit a bit too calmly on the total defensive and simply react to what the Germans are doing (usually in the south). This sort of plays into the German hands as he wants the front quite in many spots while he concentrates his best units and tries to wipe out a large chunk of your army. To me, I would consider having a shock army (or two) in reserve for offensive operations. The idea is once the German becomes committed in the south, you start hammering the line someplace else. You simply can't go toe to toe with the best of the German army in the first part of 1942, so don't even try it. Instead, try to limit the damage, but don't be afraid to give ground. In 1942, he has to beat your army and get a lot of counters gone. On the other hand, the German army breaks when he gets knocked down to a certain amount of infantry. You need to figure out how to cause more losses to his infantry. It doesn't have to be anything fancy, but stretch his line, beat on his infantry and make him commit more resources to defending where you are attacking. Make him be out of static so his attrition will be higher. If he shows up to counter what you are doing in sufficient force, fade away. You can't risk your good units yet because you simply don't have enough of them. Consider rotating units depending on what happens so you can increase your pool of good units.