Return to Smolensk and Beyond, IdahoNY vs Scar

[IdahoNYer]

Turn 160; Jul 6, 1944....clear with mud in the South Soviet Zone

Soviets succeed in establishing the Pogar Pocket with over 100,000 German and Hungarian troops trapped and left to their fate - there will be no relief attempt.

Instead, the German army will continue to pull back to the "Eastern Rampart" and reorganize somewhat as it falls back. To that effect, I pull most of 2nd Army off the line. They are badly in need of refit, as about half of the 2nd Army barely escaped the pocket. 2nd Army needs to "castle" with 4th Panzer Armee as they fall back. 2nd Army will position north of the Hun 1st Army along the Dniepr, holding the area west of Gomel. 6th Army will fall back toward Kiev, while I will need to rail 4th Pz Armee almost due south to establish positions along the Dniepr near Cherkassy. This shifting of forces will take some doing, and I can just hope that the Soviets will take some time to reduce the Pogar Pocket before striking southwest toward Kiev - which is to me, where there armor is currently postured.

The question is what I do with 8th Army? It is pretty much a shell right now, devoid of infantry for its corps - they are in the Pogar Pocket. Right now the cost to shift 8th Army to AGB is still expensive in ops points, perhaps that will come down after the pocket is reduced?

Here's a question for those of you who have lost German units destroyed - is it better to refield them in the line - with very poor experience levels, or disband them, putting those troops back as replacements for other units? I'm not sure I'll need the 14+ divisions in the Pogar Pocket re consituted as very poorly experienced divisions.

[IdahoNYer]

AGB and AGA continue to pull back towards the Dniepr.

The challenge is going to be getting the right armies to the right location. I had planned to place 8th Army along the river, and use 4th Pz Armee as a counter attack force, but 8th Army is certainly not capable of holding the line with a single PzKps that wasn't encircled.

So, while 17th Army and 1st Pz Armee are almost in place along the river, the other armies need to do some juggling.

Hun 2nd Army will need to move much farther south. It's forces are in good shape and include some German infantry formations - the lack of AT guns should be nullified by the river.

6th Army will need to pull pretty much due west - hopefully the Soviets won't interfere too much with that simple route.

2nd Army is out of the line with 2 of its 4 corps. It will lose its PzKps to 6th Army, as it won't be needed in holding swamps behind the river (that's the theory anyway). It will rail into position next turn.

Hun 1st Army is in position, but it is not fully equipped just yet. Like 2nd Army, its going to be holding the eastern end of the Pripet Marshes, so I'm going to take some risk here.

4th Pz Armee will be the toughest to pull out - it has a long way to go, will need to refit somewhat, and is currently heavily engaged. So first, I've pulled most of 2nd Army out of the line so I can get them in position, along with the Hun 1st Army. Once these two armies are in place, I can pull out 4th Pz Armee very rapidly - by rail if at all possible.

The key here is to get set BEFORE the next Soviet massed attack. That might be tougher than I anticipate. We'll see.

[Q-Ball]

That's a very good question on the destroyed German units. They'll come back as pretty ineffective manpower hogs, until they have a chance to train.

Early in the war, you definitely want the units. Once 1944 rolls around, that's a good question. Chances are your total frontage is going to shrink as you approach Poland, so you may not need them.

By 1945, I would probably disband them, and save replacements for decent units, since you don't have time to train, and the front is probably smaller anyway.

[sveint]

Very interesting OOB. I have a game in early 1944 where Soviet losses are 10.5M yet they have an active strength of 8M+. What could make the difference, factories overrun?

[karonagames]

Here's a question for those of you who have lost German units destroyed - is it better to refield them in the line - with very poor experience levels, or disband them, putting those troops back as replacements for other units? I'm not sure I'll need the 14+ divisions in the Pogar Pocket re consituted as very poorly experienced divisions.

I think Q-Ball has good advice, but you can get the manpower back into the shells quite quickly by disbanding the FZs that built the Dnepr line. You can then use the returning divisions to build your Alamo line and train up instead of FZs. If you have spare HQs you can attach the re-building units to you can stuff them with Construction battalions. If not, then put them in reach of OKH and/or the Army group HQs and use their CBs to boost entrenchment building. Obviously if you want lvl3+ entrenchments you will need to re-invest in FZs, but you should be able to time it based on how much your Alamo line is threatened.

[Kronolog]

At least they'll all come back as regular rifle formations, and not run the risk of turning into volksgrenadiers. That is if they don't hold out for a month.

[Ketza]

I would use them as diggers. For your long lasting delaying action your going to need lots of fallback lines.

[Schmart]

I'd set them to min TOE (50%) and on refit to train them up a bit. Use them as diggers in the meantime. As you need/want line troops, take one or two Divisions at a time and set to a higher TOE to build them back up to usefull fighting strength and send them to the front.

[IdahoNYer]

Thanks for all the good advice guys. I'll probably wind up disbanding about half and sending the rest to dig. My problem with that is that I'll be very tempted to push them to the front too early. Perhaps I'll put them in static mode to remind me that they aren't ready for combat.

I'll also start disbanding the fortified units along the Dniepr as positions are occuppied by infantry, that will help the manpower pools.

Now to figure out where the next "stop line" will be after the Dniepr is breached.

[IdahoNYer]

Turn 161; Jul 13, 1944....clear

No major excitement this past turn. Soviets content to start reducing the Pogar Pocket, and make a few massed rifle corps attack against AGC. AGB and AGA still withdrawing, but I slowed the pace this turn to allow 1st Hun and Ger 2nd Army to reposition.

This is a bit risky as the Soviets still have a very large, and now unemployed tank force NE of Chernigov. I'm counting on the Desna River as a significant obstacle to his further progress to the SW, cutting behind most of AGB and AGA. He may push due west, but 4th Pz Armee is still a potent force, at least in defense, and due west is the Pripet Marshes.

My bet he's still going to push into the Ukraine with the bulk of his armor. If he shifts up toward Smolensk, it will take some time, and I don't think he's willing to do that just yet.

I just hope that when he unleashes his armored horde across the Desna River, he's hitting an empty bag, and I'm behind the Dniepr, which should negate his armor advantage and he'll need infantry to force a crossing which will slow his momentum significantly.

[IdahoNYer]

Turn 162; Jul 20, 1944......Clear with Mud! (in Soviet Central zone)

With the attempt on Der Fuhrer's life a failure, we will fight on to victory!

Despite the propaganda from Berlin, the strategic withdrawal begins in earnest east of the Dniepr. And of course, just as we try to pull back rapidly, we have General Mud interfering with the operations. Not sure if this is a good thing, or a bad thing at this point....it slows the withdrawal, but it should also put the brakes on any chance to attack the now vulnerable Germans as they pull back.

While 8th Army surrenders in the Pogar Pocket, it appears that the Soviet tank armies shift to the south back of the Desna by moving SE rather than attacking either through 4th Pz Armee, or across the Desna against 6th Army. With the mud now, this can work out well, as I really don't think he'll press forward with this tank armies, and by the time the weather clears, I should be able to be pretty much in position on the Dniepr.

4th Pz Armee holds as I don't expect an attack in mud - they'll pull back quickly next turn.

Hun 1st Army is pretty much in place holding the Dniepr line west of Chernigov.

6th Army pulls two korps, or a little less than half the army, back by rail towards Kiev where they will deploy. The remaining forward elements pull back west and prepare to rapidly fall back on Kiev.

Hun 2nd Army has a bit more of a challenge pulling out in the mud, but manages to disengage successfully in most areas. Lead elements begin arriving near the Cherkassy crossing via rail.

1st Pz Armee pulls the majority of the army across the Dniepr, its last forces on the east bank pull back toward Kremenchug.

So far, so good....

[IdahoNYer]

In 17th Army' area of operation, the weather stays clear, and the Soviets begin their attacks by pushing back the Rumanian screening forces of primarily cavalry deployed in level 2 forts. They don't do well against the Soviet Rifle Corps and pull back into the better fortifications.

In this section of the Eastern Rampart, there is no wide Dneipr. However, there are level 4 forts, backed up by level 3 forts, many on the Molochna River line. Augmenting 17th Army are the majority of the the Rumanians not part of the Rum 4th Army (holding the Crimea). I don't think the Rumanians will help much, but they are better than nothing.

In addition to pushing the screen of Rum Cav back, they make one attack on the fort line itself, and three Guard Rifle Corps are repulsed with heavy loss by the 78th Sturm Div. The fort line will be tough to crack.

Still no fixed line is impenetrable, and an SS grenadier division from Germany is moved to 17th Army's area of operations.

If the fort line is breached, falling back on the Dniepr will extend the overall German line which is not a good thing - I may have to reconstitute 8th Army and back up 17th Army with it.

So far, 17th Army is off to a pretty good start. It can only get worse.....

[IdahoNYer]

Turn 163; Jul 27, 1944....clear

With the Soviet armor apparently redeployed SE of the Desna River, I figure now is the best time to rapidly pull back in the Ukraine. With only minor interference from the Red Falcons, the withdrawal goes surprisingly according to plan.

1st Pz Armee withdraws its XXXXVI PzKps behind the Dniepr, with the exception of a few panzers left on the eastern side to give the Soviets pause, and perhaps disrupt/delay the inevitable initial attacks.

Hun 2nd Army withdraws largely by rail and occupies the Dniepr defenses near Cherkassy.

6th Army also withdraws its remaining troops by rail without issue, and occupies on either side of Kiev.

4th Pz Armee moves primarily via road, as rail cap had been expended...its two PzKps pull back toward a bulge on the eastern bank of the Dniepr, possibly to counduct a limited counterattack or raid should the Soviets push some units too far forward too fast. One infantry Corps is delayed and will pull back initially in 6th Army's area, then move south from the west side of the river.

Hun 1st Army already in position in what I hope to be a "quiet" sector bordering on the Pripet.

2nd Army, augmented by what's left of 8th Army will initially hold Gomel, then pull back to the river. I leave 8th Army up here for the time being, still debating whether to pull it south toward Army Group A.

Overall, the withdrawal goes extremely well. But wars are not won by withdrawals....

[IdahoNYer]

Turn 164; Aug 3, 1944.....clear

While both AGB and AGA move back to the Dniepr, AGN and AGC remain forward to delay as long as possible.


In AGN area, while both 16th and 18th Army doggedly hold both fortified positions and unfavorable terrain, 9th Army is more exposed. Still, the Soviet pressure has been more indirect, to the south against AGC, rather than against 9th Army, allowing them to hold more forward while positions in the rear are improved.

AGC's 3rd Pz Armee and 4th Army continue to be battered by massed Rifle Corps attacks, but by using rivers and what fortifications are available - mainly level 2s, but some level 3s near Smolensk, they continue to hold about 50 or so miles east of the Eastern Rampart - which, frankly isn't too robust. Especially north of Smolensk. The longer I can delay pulling back, the longer it will take (in weeks anyway) for the Soviets to cross the Dneipr in the north.

In any case, the Soviets will likely compromise the fortifications near Smolensk forcing the inevitable withdrawal west to the Eastern Rampart. And if 3rd Pz and 4th Armies pull back, that will force me to pull back AGN's 16th and 9th Armies as well.

[IdahoNYer]

From Gomel south, the forces of AGC, AGB and AGA, complete the withdrawal without issue behind the Eastern Rampart.

While 2nd Army occupies the line, what's left of 8th Army (one battered PzKps), holds forward to retain Gomel and tie in with 4th Army.

Hun 1st Army abandons Chernigov as the Soviets close in from the NE - not worth trying to hold the city at the expense of wearing down the Hungarians. I'm fairly confident they can offer good resistance while in fortified positions behind a river, or in a swamp, but exposed against a tank army, no...

6th Army consolidates its positions around Kiev while 4th Pz Armee pulls behind the river. It will occupy about a Corps frontage between 6th Army and the Hun 2nd Army, while holding back the PzKps to counterattack any crossings.

Hun 2nd Army occupies frontage further south, while 1st Pz Armee holds the Dniepr Bend.

17th Army holds the fortified line down to the Dniepr down to the Sea of Azov. Well fortified at level 4, 20 miles deep, the first few Soviet attacks have been repulsed.

While the Dniepr and the fortifications offer some defensive benefit, realistically it can only offer a delay of some weeks - Enough time for the Soviets to move up significant Rifle Corps to a point of penetration, gain a bridgehead, then grind an expansion of that bridgehead.

With luck, I can hold him along the Eastern Rampart till mud....but that is optimistic.

[M60A3TTS]

Although you've been pushed back consistently, I think you're in terrific shape. You have the eastern rampart, and then more good defensive terrain to fall back on, then the mud will be back before you know it. Nine months left, and I can't see him making it to the frontier of the Reich by next May.

[Tarhunnas]

What version are you running? Are you continously upgrading to latest beta? Just wondering, because I never seem to get my forts beyond level 2, and yours are all level 3 or 4.

[IdahoNYer]

M60 - That's what I'm hoping for, but even so, I'll just barely manage a German minor. Trying to avoid a draw at this point.

[IdahoNYer]

Tarhunnas -

Yes, been updated with all betas and official patches as they come out.

I've been working on the "Eastern Rampart" since mid 1942 with fortied areas - most with added construction battalions. As Luftwaffe Field divisions came aboard, they went to dig, until pulled out of necessity in late 43 to the front. Rumanians have largely been diggers - thats the double line of level 3 and 4 forts in the Dniepr Bend to the Sea of Azov.

I've also pushed most German reinforcements in 1944 to dig in the Land Bridge area.

Even so, the best I've come up with in most places are level 3. Level 4s are pretty much rare at this point in most areas unless considerable time and forces are applied.

I do think the fortified areas with added construction battalions do help. Time is the most important factor though.

[IdahoNYer]

Turn 167; Aug 24, 1944.....clear

Back from Holiday Break, and the fight against the Soviet Horde continues!

In AGN's area, 18th Army continues to be pushed back hex by hex. A very slow and deliberate advance, with heavy losses to both sides. This grinding attack is very localized, and will result in Leningrad being isolated from the main German line in a few weeks. To that effect, the Finns will take over the predominance of Leningrad's defenses, and once Leningrad is isolated from the line, the remaining Finnish troops in 18th Army's AO will have to be transported by sea back to Finland.

16th and 9th Armies are enjoying a respite for the moment. No major attacks along the line, and 16th Army has been able to pull out some sizeable forces to form a intermiderary line to fall back to before retiring behind the Eastern Rampart.