Posture Frustrations

[Gelatinous Cube]

On the flip side, I usually only have one or two fleets on manual at any given time, out of around 50 at least. Are they disobeying because they are low on fuel, low on shields, damaged, or seriously outgunned? If so, the solution is probably in the policy settings somewhere, or in the design of your ship.

*Also, knowing how to take fleets out of Auto, give a queue of orders, and then press the automate button afterwards, is a HUGE thing. It allows you to know that your fleets are doing stuff without your intervention, while at the same time doing the specific things you want them to do. The only time this breaks down is due to combat that goes badly, poor supply, or strange settings.

[Grotius]

I strongly recommend Gelatinous Cube's post in the War Room about postures. I learned a lot from it.

But I learned something from this thread, too. I didn't know about default engagement stances. Good to know.

[MartialDoctor]

Well, my last situation was this.  I was moving from an enemy system into my home system.  I gave the move orders and the fleet starts to make the warp home.  Suddenly, a small fleet comes in to attack me.  3 of my ships leave the fleet to attack them while the others warp home (the fleet was set to a stance of attack nearby).  So, they disobey my move order and instead go to attack, leaving them helpless, basically, since they can't take the fleet on by themselves.

And, again, they are not set to auto, just so there is no confusion.

Before, when they were set to attack system (stance), they did this sort of thing a few times.

And, yes, I read Gelatinous's thread as well, it was very helpful. [:)]

[Gelatinous Cube]

ORIGINAL: MartialDoctor

Well, my last situation was this.  I was moving from an enemy system into my home system.  I gave the move orders and the fleet starts to make the warp home.  Suddenly, a small fleet comes in to attack me.  3 of my ships leave the fleet to attack them while the others warp home (the fleet was set to a stance of attack nearby).  So, they disobey my move order and instead go to attack, leaving them helpless, basically, since they can't take the fleet on by themselves.

And, again, they are not set to auto, just so there is no confusion.

Before, when they were set to attack system (stance), they did this sort of thing a few times.

And, yes, I read Gelatinous's thread as well, it was very helpful. [:)]

There is absolutely a setting somewhere in the options of empire policy that affects what percentage of your fleet has to be out of fuel, damaged, or otherwise messed up before they break ranks. I just cannot remember where it is for the life of me.

[MartialDoctor]

Ok, I did see two settings that I believe you are referring to.

First assemble when this percentage of fleet needs fuel

First assemble when this percentage of fleet is dispersed

It doesn't sound like this would affect my current situation though.  Obviously, it's not a fuel issue.  Although maybe the second one would affect it....

[Gelatinous Cube]

The other probability is that since they were on auto (they were on auto right?) they apparently valued their own estimation of the current conflict higher than yours. I have no idea on what exact protocol the AI makes its decisions when it is set to Auto--all I can say is that using postures and smart basing makes the automation far more effective at what you want it to do.

The best way to clear all this up would be to have the exact priority of orders clarified somewhere simple, but only so long as it doesn't sacrifice any depth.. I may not understand the AI all the time, but I seem to have it pretty much doing what I want.

[feelotraveller]

The settings G Cube is after are in the options settings under the advanced button.

Manual is never fully manual (ie. doing only what you order). Even with everything possible turned off ships will engage when attacked. One thing to pay attention to is that often ships switch between orders. An example: you give a move to system order, fine, but once they arrive in that system they switch over to no mission and pick up the appropriate engage stance.

[MartialDoctor]

I think it's good that we have these stances that ships assume after they have completed their orders.

But I think you guys still aren't following me completely.

They have orders currently and are set to manual control. They are in the process of moving out of system. Then, a few ships come in and attack. Then the AI changes a few ships orders to attack from the orders that I gave them. These ships are all in the same fleet. The other ships do not change their orders and continue to leave the system.

And, again, they are not in auto.

Hopefully, that is clear. [8D]

[Gelatinous Cube]

ORIGINAL: MartialDoctor

I think it's good that we have these stances that ships assume after they have completed their orders.

But I think you guys still aren't following me completely.

They have orders currently and are set to manual control. They are in the process of moving out of system. Then, a few ships come in and attack. Then the AI changes a few ships orders to attack from the orders that I gave them. These ships are all in the same fleet. The other ships do not change their orders and continue to leave the system.

And, again, they are not in auto.

Hopefully, that is clear. [8D]

Did the ships who fought back actually get shot by the enemy? The AI will ignore you to defend itself, but you can just re-affirm your order once more and it will usually get the point, unless you start getting whooped.

[feelotraveller]

I understand that they are on manual (but seem my last post). I believe that the explanation is that some of your ships were close enough to the hostile ones to be considered 'nearby', and some were not. Hence the engagement stance applied to only some of the ships. If you had the engagement stance set to 'engage system targets' then (assuming that some of the fleet had not already left the system) the whole fleet would have changed its orders.

[Gelatinous Cube]

ORIGINAL: feelotraveller

I understand that they are on manual (but seem my last post). I believe that the explanation is that some of your ships were close enough to the hostile ones to be considered 'nearby', and some were not. Hence the engagement stance applied to only some of the ships. If you had the engagement stance set to 'engage system targets' then (assuming that some of the fleet had not already left the system) the whole fleet would have changed its orders.

Oh, snap. Yes. With a fleet selected, you will see a box for engagement stance near the top of the lower-left-hand Corner-Box. This affects your "Auto-lite" behaviour, namely how far away an enemy ship has to be for it to decide it's worth fighting. I still don't think that should have broken your manual order to leave the system though, unless your ships were actually shot.

[feelotraveller]

If you want to give your ships the best chance not to have their orders overridden you should specify the engagement stance as 'engage when attacked' but beware if one ship is attacked and the others are not only the ship being attacked will respond.

[Gelatinous Cube]

ORIGINAL: feelotraveller

If you want to give your ships the best chance not to have their orders overridden you should specify the engagement stance as 'engage when attacked' but beware if one ship is attacked and the others are not only the ship being attacked will respond.

What bearing does engagement stance have on auto fleets? The same? If so, it adds a lot more depth to what i've been doing with fleet postures.

[feelotraveller]

I believe that it is the same. I rarely auto much and then only in late game where there is so much going on that I never notice. Basically warships are set up to engage enemy targets and this setting specifies the conditions of that engagement. I think the only way to override this is by changing the behaviour on the ship design details screen to 'flee when enemy military sighted', not that I have ever tried this. [:D] I wonder what 'flee when attacked' would do when paired with engage system targets? Your ship(s) would jump into the attack and then flee as soon as the enemy fired a shot?

[feelotraveller]

ORIGINAL: MartialDoctor

I think it's good that we have these stances that ships assume after they have completed their orders.

But I think you guys still aren't following me completely.

They have orders currently and are set to manual control. They are in the process of moving out of system. Then, a few ships come in and attack. Then the AI changes a few ships orders to attack from the orders that I gave them. These ships are all in the same fleet. The other ships do not change their orders and continue to leave the system.

And, again, they are not in auto.

Hopefully, that is clear. [8D]

Sorry a bit hasty with my other post. Additionally what could be happening is that the overmatch (I think that's the term?) settings are coming into play. They are found in the options/advanced menu from memory and the default is 2:1. So if it was a lone pirate escort and you had a fleet of 15 cruisers only one would stop to deal with it. I think the overmatch settings are based on firepower and suspect they are set on a per target basis and assessed with an at least criteria. Meaning the automation will try to select ships from your fleet to be equal to or minimally greater than twice the firepower of each individual target. Someone please correct/refine my vaguenesses if they are incorrect. [8D]

Seeing as I am struggling to remember it seems like I need to play some more. [:'(]

[Grotius]

Remind me -- can we queue ship orders? How do we do that? Also, if I set a ship to patrol, does it know to refuel itself when the time comes, and then to return to patrol? Likewise, do fleets in defensive posture know to refuel and return to station?

[ehsumrell1]

ORIGINAL: Grotius

Remind me -- can we queue ship orders? How do we do that? Also, if I set a ship to patrol, does it know to refuel itself when the time comes, and then to return to patrol? Likewise, do fleets in defensive posture know to refuel and return to station?

Hello Grotius;
To your second and third questions, yes and yes!

To queue ship orders, first select your ship, then, using the right click menu combined with
your intended map placement, issue your first order. Then, using the right click menu again,
go to the bottom of the menu and you'll see the part of the menu for queuing orders. Go to
your next map placement, then use the queuing portion of the menu to place your next ship
order, and so on (Note that when queuing orders, not all of the orders from the initial main
right click menu may be available as they are from an initial order - such as the ability to
queue building a Resort Base as an example). Hope this helps! [:)]

[MartialDoctor]

ORIGINAL: feelotraveller

I understand that they are on manual (but seem my last post). I believe that the explanation is that some of your ships were close enough to the hostile ones to be considered 'nearby', and some were not. Hence the engagement stance applied to only some of the ships. If you had the engagement stance set to 'engage system targets' then (assuming that some of the fleet had not already left the system) the whole fleet would have changed its orders.

Yeah, this is what I came to the conclusion of and what I am saying is frustrating. If I give orders to move, of course I don't want them overridden by the computer AI even if units come into range. Having the stance take effect when the orders is over is great but having the stance override my commands is not something I like occur.

Of course, your guys other advice to change the stance to 'engage when attacked' would be more effective for my current situation. But that would require changing one's stance constantly as units in this stance will not attack anyone unless attacked; they won't help other ships in their fleet either, only defend themselves. So, this requires lots of micromanagement.

Interestingly, I had my settings to 'engage system targets' previously and it was even more difficult to keep my fleet together (part of the reason I ranted a bit there in the beginning). My ships were constantly breaking off from the fleet when I would give them orders. This is due to the fact that fleets do not act as one fleet but rather as a group of individuals, who you can give the same orders to more easily. Thus, with the 'engage system targets', you may get groups of individual ships breaking off from your fleet and going off in different directions in the system (if there are multiple targets).

[Grotius]

Thanks, ehsumrell!

[Litjan]

I can feel the OP´s frustration and share it. This is the problem:

The ships in DW always have a mind on their own. Even if in "manual" they will obey certain rules that you can set. These rules are set up in varying and confusing places.

1.) The way a ship behaves during combat is set in the "design" screen. Here you can finetune how close they will attempt to get to their enemy and also when they will turn tail and run.

Example: Your colony ship is REALLY close to the target planet, but absolutely REFUSES to fly and land, because a teeny tiny pirate escort is somewhere in the same system. You order to colonize, it changes back to "fleeing from pirate XY". The reason: It´s logic is set to "evade whenever enemy sighted" in the design screen. Solution: Go to the design screen for this very colony ship. Change the "fleeing" logic to "never" or "when shields down" or something. You can do this even though the design screen "nags" when you open it that you can´t use it because the ship is already in use...

2.) The engagement stances that come with certain "mission" - do NOT confuse this with "postures". You can see a little symbol for that over the ship details windows and click on it to change the stance "on the fly". It is set up initally in the options menu - you can tell them to "engage system targets" or "engage when attacked" and something in between. These two are the most extreme stances, though. There is no stance "do nothing". This is due to the fact that initially ships were too passive and failed to attack close enemies, too busy with their own little missions. There are some problems with this, as you have noticed.

a.) Ships are really eager to attack and are distracted from their orders easily. If they are being targeted by enemies, there is NOTHING mission-wise that will make them listen to you - they will take the fight. Your last way out is the red emergency "escape" button or right-click menu to make them escape.

b.) You really need to watch out for automatic stance-switching. If you tell them to attack a mining station the stance usually changes to "attack nearby enemies only". Fine. But as soon as the mission is over (station dead) they will switch mission to "nothing" - which usually has the stance "engage system targets" with it. Ouch. They are usually smart about attacking only weaker targets (this can be set in the "attack overmatch" slider in some hidden menu - labeled "empire setting" for some unknown reason). BUT if that weak target sits right next to a huge enemy starport...tough luck. Besides - the enemies fleet in their homesystem WILL respond to you - at this point your ships are "under attack" and therefore it´s "shields up and charge the phasers!" again...

This makes "hit and run" tactics on the enemies homesystem basically not possible. They will always degenereate into a huge battle, usually with your ships snuggling up against the enemies defence platforms in their pursuit of unarmed freighters and such. Ships jumping back and forth, expanding clouds of gas and alloy and the body parts of your most promising admiral...

Jan